Tire slip at high torque, no TC

[omega man]

To me, the chain is too loose. Your bike manual will give you recommendations for proper slack. Slack is needed as the distance between sprocket centerlines changes as the suspension loads and unloads.
The thing that sorta makes me wonder is that the chains links don’t lay flat on the bottom run which may mean the chains links are dry. I like to clean (wipe down) a chain with a rag with WD-40 and then use a suitable chain lube.
Note- O-Ring chains are theoretically “sealed/lubed” however I like to see a little lube besides Chainwax has a pleasant aroma.
OM

 

[mjfink420]

To me, the chain is too loose. Your bike manual will give you recommendations for proper slack. Slack is needed as the distance between sprocket centerlines changes as the suspension loads and unloads.
The thing that sorta makes me wonder is that the chains links don’t lay flat on the bottom run which may mean the chains links are dry. I like to clean (wipe down) a chain with a rag with WD-40 and then use a suitable chain lube.
Note- O-Ring chains are theoretically “sealed/lubed” however I like to see a little lube besides Chainwax has a pleasant aroma.
OM

I've never been a believer in "forever" chains. I use Dupont Chain Wax on the bike every few 100 miles; however, it's not really like an "oil", it dries to kind of a solid? You can actually see some of it on the links in the video, it's kind of an off white color when it dries in a heavily applied spot.

Well, if you think is too loose, you should have seen it when I had the issue!! My dealer has always told me "too loose is better than too tight" and I've always tried to adhere to that. I do have a chain slack tool, but man, it's hard to use on this bike! First off, the slack is all over the place, some positions it's huge, other positions it feels really snug. But even worse, the slack is set on the side stand?! Not a huge fan, much easier to set it on the center stand or rear stand. So, long way of saying, I'm always kind of "not sure" on the XR if I'm good/not good.

 

[omega man]

I've never been a believer in "forever" chains. I use Dupont Chain Wax on the bike every few 100 miles; however, it's not really like an "oil", it dries to kind of a solid? You can actually see some of it on the links in the video, it's kind of an off white color when it dries in a heavily applied spot.

I'm not too sure that every 100 miles is needed.

Well, if you think is too loose, you should have seen it when I had the issue!! My dealer has always told me "too loose is better than too tight" and I've always tried to adhere to that. I do have a chain slack tool, but man, it's hard to use on this bike! First off, the slack is all over the place, some positions it's huge, other positions it feels really snug. But even worse, the slack is set on the side stand?! Not a huge fan, much easier to set it on the center stand or rear stand. So, long way of saying, I'm always kind of "not sure" on the XR if I'm good/not good.

There is another clue-
The dealer is correct, IMO, that too tight is much more problematic. I remember back in the mini-bike days the old #35 chains would get so hot/tight that they would lock up and stop the bike.
If you see different or exaggerated/unequal stretch in different parts of the chain, it's a good indication that it is time to replace it. I don't know about the "forever" chains trend. The old theory was 20,000 miles and always do the sprockets at that time.
Again, the manual will suggest the recommended chain adjustment. I don't think that side stand or center stand makes a difference if done properly. I use the center stand as I find that the wheel runs more free in the travel adjustment.....especially if the adjuster needs to be loosened up a bit.
OM

 

[mjfink420]

Chain and sprocket on the way. Hopefully this is the issue, but, from the comments, seems like it's "about time" for them anyway so might as well get it done and see if this is indeed what I was feeling. I'll report back, but thank you for the help/suggestions!

 

[omega man]

Chain and sprocket on the way. Hopefully this is the issue, but, from the comments, seems like it's "about time" for them anyway so might as well get it done and see if this is indeed what I was feeling. I'll report back, but thank you for the help/suggestions!

Nice.
OM

 

[rhbike]

Some video of me fooling with the chain, love to get your comments/suggestions. I don't want to color opinions, curious what you/others think?

It's been some years since I last road chain drive motorbikes. Things might have changed a bit over the years - I doubt it though. The chain slack you show is way beyond what was ever called for any of my bikes and would be in thr highly unsafe territory. The owners manual for every chain drive bike I had very clearly defined what the chain slack should be, and the spec was pretty much the same for all my bikes. On my lighter/more powerful sport bikes, a chain that was getting too slack (a lot less slack than what you show) would start exhibiting rather ugly handling characteristics when getting on or off the throttle as the slack shifted from the top to the bottom. My guess is with such a slack chain, you might beyond what the adjusters can take up. Me thinks if you measured a length of the chain for stretch, it will indicate replacement is probably required.

 

[mjfink420]

It's been some years since I last road chain drive motorbikes. Things might have changed a bit over the years - I doubt it though. The chain slack you show is way beyond what was ever called for any of my bikes and would be in thr highly unsafe territory. The owners manual for every chain drive bike I had very clearly defined what the chain slack should be, and the spec was pretty much the same for all my bikes. On my lighter/more powerful sport bikes, a chain that was getting too slack (a lot less slack than what you show) would start exhibiting rather ugly handling characteristics when getting on or off the throttle as the slack shifted from the top to the bottom. My guess is with such a slack chain, you might beyond what the adjusters can take up. Me thinks if you measured a length of the chain for stretch, it will indicate replacement is probably required.

IIRC, the spec for the XR is 35-45MM. 1.5-2in or so. The issue is, you measure that at the tightest point; I think I show in the video, at the tight point, the chain is pretty tight (honestly, it's probably under spec, maybe around an inch). But at the slackest point, it might be 3 in of slack... That might just be the chain wear, but it's always been an issue on this bike since new, the difference from the tight point to the loose one was always pretty large.

There's actually plenty of adjuster left. But, either way, based on the discussion, I'm going to change everything out and see if that's the end of the problem. ~22K miles on a chain/sprocket doesn't seem great to me, but it's also not awful (IMHO). Hopefully that's the end of the problem!

 

[jandhumphreyme]

With chains you might want to think about installing one of the Scottoiler Systems, I had them on all my chain bikes, greatly simplified chain maintenance and increased chain life.

 

[kbasa]

Here's a pic of the sprockets, how do these look to you guys?


View attachment 99648View attachment 99649

Set proper sag as directed, then grab the chain at the 3:00 position and give it a pull. If you can pull it off the sprocket, it's probably time for a new chain. It's a sign that the rollers are worn and on their way out. Some have commented on the teeth still looking sharp, which is great, but the real measurement is whether the spaces between the teeth have become further dished and are allowing slop as you accelerate and decelerate.

Similarly, if you have links that are "kinked" - and you have a crap load of them - and don't easily return to alignment with leading or following links, the roller pins on that link are probably torched and it's time for a chain.

After riding, while the chain is warm, clean it with WD40 or other Oring safe cleaner. You want to get the grit out of the Orings. After that, spray the inside of the lower run with chain lube. Let it dry, then go back again with WD 40 to get the excess off.

One of the reasons we clean the chain with WD40 prior to lubing, then let it cool and wipe off the excess is that the same properties that keep the lube on the chain also make it attract dirt, which slowly destroys the little Orings that protect the roller pins. It's like rubbing sandpaper on them. They fail, there goes the lube in the rollers and now we start to see adjustments required. Chains don't "stretch", the additional length comes from all those rollers slowly failing over time.

I usually get about 15k out of a chain on my VFR, though it has about 2/3rds the power of an S1K. Mostly, keeping the grit out of the Orings (Or X-rings, depending on chain make) is what will keep them happiest and help them live their longest life.

I hope that's helpful.

When you swap the chain, I can't recommend the RK chain breaker kit highly enough. It'll press the old pin out of a link easily and when you install the new chain, you'll be able to rivet it properly instead of using a master link, which I've seen ejected a few times during my riding career.

RK Chain and Press Fit Rivet Tool – Store – –SV RACING PARTS–

This is the Lifetime Quality RK Chain and Press Fit Rivet Tool that is so well received andreviewed on all the Forums. It is $115 all in and Ships for Free when shipped with the Chain and Sprocket Combinations. It is Regular Price $164.99 and the best online price for it I have seen is $144.95...

svracingparts.com

So I wrote all that and then I saw your video.

For anyone curious, this bike is around 22K miles now; I'm pretty happy with that amount of wear, especially if others agree that it's not cooked yet!

This wasn't violent. When it happened the first time, I immediately tried to do it again, it wasn't a "holy crap" moment, more a "what was that". If I had to compare it to something, it's like when you hit a tiny patch of sand on the road when you're accelerating, not at all like the tire stepping out or something more dramatic.

I may do the chain as preventative maintenance, it doesn't look bad to me, but 22K out of a chain seems like a lot, no? Anyone happen to know stock front/rear sizes of the 2022 XR off the top of their head? I'm thinking it's 17/45? Any reason to go with a rubber dampener in the front sprocket (seems to be offered as one of the options on the kit linked below)?


Here's what I'm looking at:

BMW S 1000XR (20-24) SUPERLITE Steel Sprockets & 525 Chain Kit

Upgrade your BMW S1000XR (20-24) with a new chain & Superlite RSX sprockets. 525 pitch chain kit made-to-order with many gearing options & chain models to choose. Shop BMW S1000XR chain kits at Sprocket Center.

sprocketcenter.com

View attachment 99650

Your chain is long dead and verging on dangerous. You see all those kinked links that don't pull out straight? They're done. The Orings that seal them have failed and the chain is toast. If you can flex the chain that far sideways, it isn't almost done, it's completely done and running 195hp through it is a Really Bad Idea.

If you get someone to ride next to you and they see your chain making a big sine wave on the lower run, which I bet yours is totally doing, you are not due, you are dangerously overdue for a chain. Replace both sprockets at the same time.

Seriously. Don't ride with that. You haven't lived until you've had a chain roll itself up around your sprocket and either bust out your case up front or lock up the rear and send you in the woods. Both are expensive propositions.

If you survive.

Good call on steel sprockets. Make sure you know how many links you're supposed to have when you order your chain. It should be in your owner's manual or someone here should know it. My VFR is 108 links, including the master link.

Good luck. If you have a stand for the Aprilia, compare that chain, which is newer, with the S1K. It won't deflect side to side and I expect it has exactly 0 kinks. If you have the sag set right on the chain, you shouldn't be able to pull the 3:00 position link off the sprocket at all.

I hope that's helpful.

tl;dr: Your chain is toast and if you ignore it, it will kill you. If you swap it yourself, buy the RK tool set and rivet the master link on. Be sure to clean grit off the chain to protect the Orings so your chain lives a long happy life.

 

[kbasa]

With chains you might want to think about installing one of the Scottoiler Systems, I had them on all my chain bikes, greatly simplified chain maintenance and increased chain life.

I followed someone with one of those for a couple weeks on tour and the front of my bike and my gear had a fine haze of oil on it.

 

[omega man]

I followed someone with one of those for a couple weeks on tour and the front of my bike and my gear had a fine haze of oil on it.

I never understood the fascination or real need for a Scottoiler on modern, o-ring chain systems.
OM

 

[mjfink420]

If you get someone to ride next to you and they see your chain making a big sine wave on the lower run, which I bet yours is totally doing, you are not due, you are dangerously overdue for a chain. Replace both sprockets at the same time.

Seriously. Don't ride with that. You haven't lived until you've had a chain roll itself up around your sprocket and either bust out your case up front or lock up the rear and send you in the woods. Both are expensive propositions.

First off, thank you for the awesome tips/advice!!

Bike's not moving until the new chain/sprocket get here. IDK I mentioned it here, but I blew up my Tuono on the track last month. Threw a rod; engine hard locked going ~60MPH. That was.. Exciting. So, yeah, I'm not at all looking for another excuse to see what it's like to ride a bike at speed with a locked rear wheel, did that once, thankfully no scars, but no reason to try for repeat performance!

The only unfortunate thing, I already ordered before I saw your post! I got the Motion Pro PBR tool instead of the one you recommended; hopefully I'll have good luck with it, came recommended by a mechanic friend so.. Finger crossed! And yes, the new chain is a rivet style link, not the "clip" (is that what it's called??) link.

I hope that's helpful.

Very, thank you!!!

The only thing I'm annoyed about here, this bike was in <3K miles ago for the "big service" (18K, valve job) at a BMW dealer. The chain didn't go from "good" to "might kill you if you ride it" in 3K miles. So much for the 800 point inspection they are supposed to do I guess?

I'm not going with the OEM chain again. That chain is ~500 bucks and 20K miles isn't all that impressive. I lubed after most rides, I wasn't as good as some here taking care of it, but I'd guess better than most. For the "never lube" chain.. IDK, maybe I expected too much, but given the price, 30-40K miles, maybe worth it, but 18K or so (when I should have changed it)? Nope, not doing that again. Doing a DID ZVM-X2 this time, less expensive and supposed incredibly strong. Probably a bit heavier too but "more power" is not high (at all) on the list of things I need from this bike!

ETA:

Here's the details of what I ordered in case anyone is following this in the future and looking for the right parts. This company does nothing but chains/sprockets, so, hopefully they know what they're doing, if I have any issues, I'll report back!

Order Details​

525 Chain Kit - SUPERLITE RSX Steel Sprocket Set with Choice of Chain - BMW S1000XR ('20-23) SKU: SL35A1032 Quantity: 1 Final Price: $467.00 Options: CHAIN BRAND | MODEL | COLOR: DID 525 ZVMX2 - GOLD Heavy Duty X'ring (1300cc rated) NEED ANY EXTRA'S ? (optional): Add a Motion Pro PBR CHAIN TOOL REAR SPROCKET SIZE: 45 Tooth - RSX Steel FRONT SPROCKET SIZE: 17 Tooth - SUPERLITE ​ DID Chain 525 ZVM-X2 Master Link - RIVET TYPE (choose color) SKU: DA525ZVMX2-RL Quantity: 1 Final Price: $11.95 Options: MASTER LINK COLOR: GOLD 525 ZVM-X2 ​ Totals: Subtotal: $478.95 Discounts: $0.00 Sales Tax: $0.00 Shipping: $0.00 Total: $478.95​

 

[omega man]

I prefer DID chain(s). It would seem once past 50 horsepower, best to use a peen-over or non-clip style master link. One of the common operator errors with the clip style master link, really can be a problem when riding off road through the pucker brush, is improperly installing the clip in the “wrong” direction.
You may enjoy this older thread.

Chains and the use of "clip style" master links~

I was talking motorcycles today and a friend of mine mentioned he went with a rider to get a master link for the riders GSXR-1000- somewhere around 180hp. I mentioned that I had always been cautioned about running master links (non-continuous) chain over 50hp? He said it was done all the time-...

forums.bmwmoa.org

OM

 

[mjfink420]

I prefer DID chain(s). It would seem once past 50 horsepower, best to use a peen-over or non-clip style master link. One of the common operator errors with the clip style master link, really can be a problem when riding off road through the pucker brush, is improperly installing the clip in the “wrong” direction.
You may enjoy this older thread.

Chains and the use of "clip style" master links~

I was talking motorcycles today and a friend of mine mentioned he went with a rider to get a master link for the riders GSXR-1000- somewhere around 180hp. I mentioned that I had always been cautioned about running master links (non-continuous) chain over 50hp? He said it was done all the time-...

forums.bmwmoa.org

OM

Glad to hear it. I would have stayed with OEM, but the price is just absurd, 500+ for a chain?! Sorry BMW, that's a bridge too far, I'll spend 50 bucks for a T shirt, but you reached my limit on that one.

I used to ride dirt bikes and they all used (AFAIK) the clip style link. Was taught early on always to put them in the direction so when they are on the bottom (where snags are more likely) the clip has the open end facing backwards. Never had one come off, but I heard of it from time to time.

 

[kbasa]

FWIW, a chain can go from OK to Done in 3k miles. Once the links start giving up, they just cascade one after another in rapid order.

We left SF, CA for Boston, returning home, and my wife was on our CB750F. We left SF and the chain was acceptable but not great. I could adjust it properly, no kinked links or anything, but we wound up swapping the chain in the parking lot of our hotel, across from the Davenport, IA HD dealer at the time (mid 90s). Once they start to fail, they go quickly.

I never understood the fascination or real need for a Scottoiler on modern, o-ring chain systems.
OM

With my Honda, I give it, at best, indifferent care and reliably get 15K miles out of a chain on it. The new chain technology is terrific. Like you, I'm an RK chain guy and steel sprockets guy, always with a rivet master link.

 

[mjfink420]

FWIW, a chain can go from OK to Done in 3k miles. Once the links start giving up, they just cascade one after another in rapid order.

Thank you, I had no idea that's how they failed (I thought it would be gradual from "new" to "dead"). At least now I have a good baseline, 20K miles on the OEM chain, I'll start really looking at the new chain around 10K and see how it's doing. Should fail more quickly because it's 1/4 the price of the OEM chain, but I suspect it's also built heavier so.. We'll see.

I suspect when I get the new chain and compare it to the old one, I'll pretty quickly figure out what it "should" feel like (and should not). This is one of those things (at least I'm guessing), once you know what right and wrong look/feel like, you'll never wonder again if it's time or not.

I just hope it solves the issue that made me start looking at the chain in the first place. Seems like a good chance it will, but won't know until the new one gets here.

 

[PGlaves]

On a mere F650 Funduro I first adjusted the chain after 12,000 or so miles on the chain in Albuquerque. By the time I reached Lawton, Oklahoma a mere 498 miles later it needed to be adjusted again. We went to the local Honda shop and bought a chain and had the shop install it because we were headed to Tennessee and didn't want to have to adjust the chain again on the road.

 

[CaptCF]

On a mere F650 Funduro I first adjusted the chain after 12,000 or so miles on the chain in Albuquerque. By the time I reached Lawton, Oklahoma a mere 498 miles later it needed to be adjusted again. We went to the local Honda shop and bought a chain and had the shop install it because I was headed to Tennessee and didn't want to have to adjust the chain again on the road.

That's what happened to my F700GS once it reached end of life. I'd adjust it to spec and then a day or two later it would look loose and I'd check it and it would be out of spec again.

 

[kbasa]

Thank you, I had no idea that's how they failed (I thought it would be gradual from "new" to "dead"). At least now I have a good baseline, 20K miles on the OEM chain, I'll start really looking at the new chain around 10K and see how it's doing. Should fail more quickly because it's 1/4 the price of the OEM chain, but I suspect it's also built heavier so.. We'll see.

I suspect when I get the new chain and compare it to the old one, I'll pretty quickly figure out what it "should" feel like (and should not). This is one of those things (at least I'm guessing), once you know what right and wrong look/feel like, you'll never wonder again if it's time or not.

I just hope it solves the issue that made me start looking at the chain in the first place. Seems like a good chance it will, but won't know until the new one gets here.

When you get the old one off, grab a chunk of it while it's laying on a table or something, pull on it and you should be able to feel all the slop in the expired rollers. The new chain will have no slop at all.

That's why you check the chain by pulling it off the sprocket at the 3:00 position. You're isolating a few links and you can now see how much slack in the rollers.

Good luck, man. You won't believe how all your driveline lash disappears with a new chain.

 

[CaptCF]

Just re-read @omega man's earlier posts and he mentions the Motion Pro tools. That's the one I have too (PBR) and it has worked fine for me. One additional tip - if you haven't done it before order a couple extra master links. I use it so infrequently since chain life is pretty good these days that I always have at least one extra master link in case I get too ham-fisted with it and over-peen it.