mounting tires comments

[gtgt_bangbang]

mounting tires comments

not sure its useful to drag out a Michelin Pilot Activ discussion, I see them for sale but got impression on Michelin website that Activs might be phasing out ?
anyway I bought this set too long ago , and want to get some miles out of them before they turn to black chalk

Question - there is no apparent heavy spot mark / paint dot on these tires, no info on website. Does anyone have info ?

I tried find a heavy spot by 3point weighing ;
I rested the tire on two fixed points , points ~1/3 circumference apart would be good but just maintaining symmetry w/r/t a 3rd rest point ( a digital scale) is good.
I laid sockets on side, kept at consistent locations (slots of a table saw), with bar clamps just outboard / behind it all, in order to block the tire into same position every time, and used an cheapie electronic scale under a 3rd spot @ opposite side to weigh that side/spot resting on the scale.

Important to have the tire jigged into as consistent of a placement orientation w/r/t everything as possible , to have any hope of useful measurements.

Chalk or crayon fiducials marks on tire would have helped a lot too , to do a better job identifying a heavy spot & keeping track of numbers.
Kept turning & weighing until it sure seemed like I found The Spot , a " heaviest" orientation, but was only a few grams difference.
That heavy spot then gets oriented 180 from the valve on assembled wheel.
(note - this failed bigly, as that guess required 2 oz of MORE weight on my " heavy" presumed side. more notes below

I ended up putting Mr Michelin Man (on the right side) waving from directly above the valve stem hole.
I mention this just in case there is consistency between tires, and you aren't as anal as me; it beats a blind guess.
IMO , I have best luck with uniformity on Michelins of all sorts ( car / bike ), my top pick unless priced out of the running.

For another what its worth, I have that wheel's bearing with a +0.001" spacing ( spacer tube / wedding ring to hold bearings a net ~ 0.001" OFF the races at room temp) and the break free force or "preload" is astoundingly low; when I would move the valve hole just a very few degrees off of TDC,
the wheel would break free from a rest and hunt a bit until the the valve hole was again topmost, repeated location w/in a fraction of an inch.
Thats a really small preload , and its a 100% certain the bearing are not in a condition of actual crush ...

I will probably aim for a 0.000" spacer set up when I finally run this thing, as there is the tiniest bit of rock evident at rim edge with the +0.001" set up.
My whole point of MEASURING (measure one bearing height w/r/t race while the wheel is resting horizontal on the other bearing, with the full spacer stack inserted ) to determine the correct wedding ring was to avoid a "guess & drag test" process.
IMO really is a superior way and not difficult; calipers & some wits jiggin it up is all thats needed to determine that initial setting.
This tiny prelaod will also be useful for a doing static / final balance of wheel - the break-free force was a gnats nut +/- a load

(PS you could weigh "preload" aka break free force , using a dixie cup hanging from a string wrapped around the axle,
& adding water to the cup until the wheel breaks free ;
weigh the water & do the math , if you -like me- dont have a sensitive enough spring-scale to pull test.
THis would be much more accurate , ect , than tugging a string


I recall reading somewhere that the Pilot Activ , the front / 19 at least, was having trouble w/ seating the last segment of bead fully , on snowflake rims.
Ditto here, was a struggle session , the very last section to seat just wouldn't fully home,
like the bead just wont give any more and is too small diameter by some tiny amount.
Just a tiny gap but visible. Not sticking MY finger tip in there to tempt Murphy into seating it on a pinch of skin!

My rims are pretty clean but I got in a hurry & neglected to better smooth out the shoulder of the bead area with some scotchbrite & metal cleaner / polish.
Next time I sure wont, because I had to do the the overfill / deflate game a dozen times to get it still not-perfectly seated.
Probably could have put some tire shine / treament on the rubber for a day or few beforehand too, to soften the lip, maybe try polish the tire lip too !

Finally left it sitting with 50 psi , after working a bit more lube under the spot while deflated, and when I checked a few hours later, the mis-seated section was much less apparent, as if the tire eased home while stretched from the over pressure.

Not checked yet whether tire is round at the road patch due to any seating issues but expect to , before done.
Probably do a handful more fill/deflate attempts after the tire relaxes over night with over-pressure.

I lucked into a freebie harbor freight tire machine, and dropped $$ for a mojo lever after the first time I tried the HF monstrosity,
Mojo lever is a very useful & welcome tool so far.

I also have a bead knuckle -kind of thing that stops the initial bead seat from sneaking off while working the lever around, a worthy aid with the rickety HF stand.

The last idea to offer for tire mouting is Toyota Tire Lube, an aerosol product.
Much better lube than soap water and stays slick for a lot longer too; doesn't dry away too fast & leave a counter-productive sticky film like soap does.
Definitely worth the few bucks and so far got a couple years & half dozen tires out of the can with lots more to go

 

[gtgt_bangbang]

achieving balance

I tried to find the heavy point of the tire by weighing on a 3 point support,
and while I'm sure there is some way that method will help set up rough balance,
when I mounted the tire on the rim in the supposed origination, it required 2 oz of weight ( temporarily taped on) on side opposite from the valve stem ,
to get anywhere near a static balance.\

actually with the 2oz, the weights & stem now rested horizontal , so there was a new heavy spot @ ~90deg to previous location begging for even bit MORE weight at a 2nd spot.
no bueno.

I'd really not rather hammer weights on to this polished rim, so

I broke the bead & turned the tire 180 degree on the rim, (wiggled until the the tube stem was back into straight up position since it drags a bit with the tire)
& checked static balance again; the wheel still rolled when released but much much slower than originally & rested consistently with valve s/where off bottom most.

I turned the tire a little more in the same direction now maybe 200deg from original placement , but then the wheel hunted just a bit faster upon release.

Since it had been closer to balanced at 180, so I turned the tire backward furher before that 180 adjustment, checking static balance in about 10~15 degree increments ,
& seated the tire each time ( now a lot easier to seat tire readily after a few more fill/vent cycles & lubing the hangup spot. )

The 1st back tracking slowed the release/roll even more to a crawl , and the 2nd backtracking a little less increment eliminated any & all tendency for the tire to hunt a bottom.

IMO this wheel is very well balanced with zero added weight.




My compressor air isn't very dry, so there is definitely some water accumulated inside the tube due to fill/vent about 20 times ( note - leave the valve core out to speed that cycle up - works fine for seating purposes) also I'm sure there is some lube & moisture inside the tire itself.

I'll break the bead one more time to speed up the air in there and with valve core removed, let the wheel dry out in the sun for a day or to
(the water IN the tube will find its way out, but takes awhile to diffuse)

No matter what preload is best to run on the road, it greatly helped to shim for an excessively LOW preload, to use the bikes bearings for the balancing operation.

With a known .001 CLEARANCE in the bearings, the bare wheel would roll to seek a bottom with the valvev stem HOLE only a few degrees off its naturral rest.
Thats a very tiny preload.

I'll tighten up the bearing crush by a .001 or so ( thinner wedding band) for road use.

If you got the time & set up, it might really pay off to trial & error the tire/rim orientation.

 

[PGlaves]

I tried to find the heavy point of the tire by weighing on a 3 point support,
and while I'm sure there is some way that method will help set up rough balance,
when I mounted the tire on the rim in the supposed origination, it required 2 oz of weight ( temporarily taped on) on side opposite from the valve stem ,
to get anywhere near a static balance.\

actually with the 2oz, the weights & stem now rested horizontal , so there was a new heavy spot @ ~90deg to previous location begging for even bit MORE weight at a 2nd spot.
no bueno.

I'd really not rather hammer weights on to this polished rim, so

I broke the bead & turned the tire 180 degree on the rim, (wiggled until the the tube stem was back into straight up position since it drags a bit with the tire)
& checked static balance again; the wheel still rolled when released but much much slower than originally & rested consistently with valve s/where off bottom most.

I turned the tire a little more in the same direction now maybe 200deg from original placement , but then the wheel hunted just a bit faster upon release.

Since it had been closer to balanced at 180, so I turned the tire backward furher before that 180 adjustment, checking static balance in about 10~15 degree increments ,
& seated the tire each time ( now a lot easier to seat tire readily after a few more fill/vent cycles & lubing the hangup spot. )

The 1st back tracking slowed the release/roll even more to a crawl , and the 2nd backtracking a little less increment eliminated any & all tendency for the tire to hunt a bottom.

IMO this wheel is very well balanced with zero added weight.




My compressor air isn't very dry, so there is probably some water accumulated inside the tube due to fill/vent about 20 times ( I leave the valve core out to speed that cycle up - works fine for seating purposes) also I'm sure there is some lube & moisture inside the tire itself.

I'll break the bead one more time and with valve core removed, let the wheel dry out in the sun for a day or to (the water IN the tube will find its way out, but takes awhile to diffuse)

No matter what preload is best to run on the road, it greatly helped to shim for an excessively LOW preload, to use the bikes bearings for the balancing operation.

With a known .001 CLEARANCE in the bearings, the bare wheel would roll to seek a bottom with the valvev stem HOLE only a few degrees off its naturral rest.
Thats a very tiny preload.

I'll tighten up the bearing crush by a .001 or so ( thinner wedding band) for road use.

If you got the time & set up, it might really pay off to trial & error the tire/rim orientation.

I prefer to balance the wheel with no tire mounted. I then mark those weights with paint, as permanent. Then mounting the manufacturer's mark with the valve stem often requires no new weights at all.

I also prefer to use a balance stand with its own bearings and rollers. This is particularly true with our motorcycles, all of which have sealed wheel bearings with no wedding ring or top hat to adjust. To build my balance stand I used some 1" square steel stock I had lying around and a set of patio door rollers which cost me $2.59 at the hardware store but that was 15 years ago so now the rollers are probably $4. A little light machine oil keeps the rollers much easier to roll than the wheel bearings.

 

[gtgt_bangbang]

I prefer to balance the wheel with no tire mounted. I then mark those weights with paint, as permanent. Then mounting the manufacturer's mark with the valve stem often requires no new weights at all.

understand , but the tire/rim as a unit is what counts, plus I like a weight-less but balanced wheel on something showy.
Its unlikely imo that the rubber will be balanced ( and this one proved that by an oz or few)

IMO, its always better to use the wheel & tire to cancel e/others variations.

I didnt see any mfg's weight spot / marks on this Michelin, there are no marks on the tire that aren't right from the mold.
Michelin website had no comments that I could find regarding weight marks.
I know a lot of rubber is marked at the factory; seen paint dots, stickers ( really clowns? a sticker? lets have some fun moving those around) ,
maybe even a small brand mark; but seem maybe Michelin just assumes they are perfect out of the mold. ( their us made car tires are usually great)


and that 2points + a scale method , while promising and absolutely legit method that can give clue to how MUCH weight will be needed ,
bovineously yielded a big steamer when I rushed the set up .


Got any hints on the heavy mark I still missed on the Pilot Activ ? tyia


I got HF balancing stand but its been abused as a polishing platform and the bearings were never that great to begin with ,
plus the center rod itself is thin & saggy. I have a stack of better bearings to add to the stand someday

but this is a BMW site & with fresh dry taper bearings that are a known set-up @ a minuscule preload, I rolled my own.

( lol there is currently a guitar stand straddling the wheel stand as bridge for the short front axle to perform its ...... wait for it ... .wait ...... ROLE

Ball bearing wheels would work great too, as long as the wheel is held well. Seals & grease raise the resistance & add errors but not an issue here

A dead level axle & stand is not really required to find a significant heavy spot, so I dont take great pains on that aspect.
Carpenters level is more than enough & shims is fine, but I'll add some jack screws to the stand next time Im bored

 

[lkchris]

I think Michelin thinks their tires are so well made, no "heavy spot" mark is required.

I used to line up with the bar code sticker anyway.

Pop into a Mercedes dealer sometime and observe new cars in the showroom that don't have Michelin tires. Almost never is the heavy spot mark aligned with anything.

 

[gtgt_bangbang]

light spot dot

I think Michelin thinks their tires are so well made, no "heavy spot" mark is required.
.

yeah I got the Spot Rule asswards;

I see that dunlop for instance, yellow is the light spot and red would be a high spot ( to counter an egged rim I suppose ).
fact is its been too many moons since I bought a tire brand having a dot/spot. Im not really a big wheel in the tire world

I have a couple Avon here too , having both a typical tire label , plus a separate bar code sticker.
Agreeing with what you say, same tire worship site says a Bar Codes stickers are the The Light Spot dot.
But there being no indication ON the bar code that it was even Avon who put that sticker on tire , or if maybe the vendor did for stock tracking, so I dunno.

But anyway I had tried to determine the heavy side ( 1/3 actually ) of this no lable / no spot Michelin by actually weighing,
tire set horizontal on a crude 3 point jig.

Static balance after first-go mounting indicated my results were really bad.
I think a better jig could give better result; scales usually dont lie ( tho wife's does when I step on it )

I measured only a v.small weight difference around the tire , but installing the "heavy" side 180 from valve resulted in much worse balance than after some try & test rotations.

Bottom line is this 19 Michelin Activ went from 2 oz required ON the presumed "heavy spot" just to produce a less severe ( and new location ) imbalance,
And finally dialed in for a zip.zero oz. weight required for a rock steady static balance.

So my favorite result of the howle exercise was achievng balance with no weights to gaudy up the rim


PS have to re align tube each move, of course it dragged along with tire.
Not wanting to reef on the poor valve stem while doing deflate/fill repeats ,
I used a shop vac to completely flatten tube, and stem self-aligned more easily.

I 'll probably try weigh this rear Michy on a better set up, , rear wheel is ready to set up

 

[nickrides]

While the Michelin Pilot Activ is a fine tire, I stopped using them on my '78 R/80 due to them being so stiff and difficult to mount.
I always feared a rear flat [ tougher to pry off and on] and having to do the dismount on the side of the road to get to the tube.
I've got Dunlop Roadriders on that machine now, much easier to lever on/off.
Nick

 

[gtgt_bangbang]

ye I cant imagine taking one of these off with spoons ala road-side.

I removed a ~10 year old Activ the other day, extremely bonded to wheel , resisted the bead breaker pretty well.

Feared bending the rim just trying to get a mojobar in ( bar round tip would not fit in the tiny bead gap)
and resorted to razor cutting all around center , then cut more sections until I could get a cut-off wheel on the steel cord buried in the bead.
Came off then in a hurry at that point but hardly 'fix a flat' friendly

Actually heard some popping when mounting rear- really hope I didnt break some steel wire in bead !
Probably be the last set of Pilots - just too tight

 

[craydds]

I prefer to balance the wheel with no tire mounted.

Paul, I'm fixin' to mount some new Roadsmart 4's tonight. I have a Marc Parnes balancer. Think I will do as you say and balance the wheels first. Then mount tires and give 'em a final balance.

 

[PGlaves]

Paul, I'm fixin' to mount some new Roadsmart 4's tonight. I have a Marc Parnes balancer. Think I will do as you say and balance the wheels first. Then mount tires and give 'em a final balance.

That is what I do.

 

[rhbike]

Paul, I'm fixin' to mount some new Roadsmart 4's tonight. I have a Marc Parnes balancer. Think I will do as you say and balance the wheels first. Then mount tires and give 'em a final balance.

I have been scratching my head how this method can make any sense.

Balancing the wheel without a tire will only be of value if the tire you are mounting is perfectly balanced too. Few tires are perfectly balanced, which means adding more weights to then balance the tire. By mounting a tire to an unbalanced wheel with the tire's heavy spot aligned to the wheels lightest spot will result in the least overall weight needed to balance the combined wheel with tire. My current back wheel as an example required zero weight to achieve perfect balance with the tire mounted, whereas had I balanced before mounting the tire, I would have required a bunch of weights to balance the rim, then some more to balance the tire.

What am I missing?

 

[PGlaves]

I have been scratching my head how this method can make any sense.

Balancing the wheel without a tire will only be of value if the tire you are mounting is perfectly balanced too. Few tires are perfectly balanced, which means adding more weights to then balance the tire. By mounting a tire to an unbalanced wheel with the tire's heavy spot aligned to the wheels lightest spot will result in the least overall weight needed to balance the combined wheel with tire. My current back wheel as an example required zero weight to achieve perfect balance with the tire mounted, whereas had I balanced before mounting the tire, I would have required a bunch of weights to balance the rim, then some more to balance the tire.

What am I missing?

My experience has been that after mounting a major brand tire on an already balanced wheel, more times than not no changes in weight were required. I have done this with a number of Metzeler and Michelin tires to good result. Occasionally a very small amount of weight might be added but often not. There is a reason Michelin no longer marks a light spot on their tires.

 

[craydds]

What am I missing?

Method 1. Wheel/tire combo balanced together. Let's assume the valve stem is the heavy side of the wheel. We mount the tire's lightest side (yellow dot) at the valve stem; we assume the tire's heavy side is opposite of the wheel's heavy side. Now we balance the wheel-tire combo.
Method 2. Balance wheel first: again, assume valve stem is heavy side but verify with static balancer and mark the heavy spot. Then place weight 180 degrees opposite the heavy mark until wheel is precisely balanced. This separates and negates the wheel imbalance from the tire imbalance Next, mount the tire with yellow dot at the valve stem (or heavy mark) to be consistent. Proceed to balance the tire.
3. The difference in total weight between Method #1 and Method #2 is negligible. My suggestion is that method #2 is more precise.

edit: do not assume that the valve stem is the heavy point on the wheel. see post #2 here: https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?100639-Dunlop-Roadsmart-IV-s-I-mount-them-myself .

 

[saddleman]

I balance my wheels to zero with electrical tape on the weights. I then mount the tire & inflate it to the recommended pressure. When I put it back on the balancer I now know where the heaviest area of the tire is. I mark the heaviest area of the tire with a tape arrow. Then I break the bead & rotate the arrow on the tire to the center of the weights that I have taped on the wheel. Then I remove the weights that I have taped to the wheel & now I'm ready to balance the wheel & tire. Sometimes the dots on the tires are in the correct spot & sometimes they are way off.

 

[gtgt_bangbang]

INSIDE the rear Pilot Active was a round ish , light color paint spot, looks hand applied , also two other colored / numbered marks , so sort of simple label , bright red & yellow ./ with some numbers .
Got pix , will post later. Never even looked INSIDE the front, woops.

Guessing that inside-tire paint dot is the light point , Michelin style

Tried weighing tire horizontal on slightly better set up, still hazy on the results.
Most attempts agreed that the light SIDES ( not point ) of tire correlated to the paint dot. But only a few grams difference.

I marked the interior paint dot & spots ON THE OUTSIDE with some new paint dots between the treads so paint wouldn't get rubbed off too quick, just to keep track of where the marks were after mounting .

The rear disc snowflake with no weight , settled (on super low preload / easy turning bearings) with valve stem hole 30~40 degrees off bottommost.
Makes sense that the valve hole is less significant with all that metal / thick wall castings involved.

I started static balancing with the tire mounted but BEFORE tire forced onto bead, so I could drag / rotate the tire around the rim easier without the hassle of breaking bead seat time & again , to test balance.
Took some pains to keep tire symmetrical on rim despite not being seated, but who knows what effect the UNseated tire had on balance.
Not much effect on a static balance IF tire is any thing near symmetrical IMO


Rear Required several oz of weight to get a near static balance and actually seemed unresponsive to tire orientation ( like the wheel metal was dominant UNbalanced factor,
so I gave up trying to luck out & jsut aligned the inside spot with the valve hole. Seemed like the best starting point


Sometimes I tape the weights on for easy test / removeal, but also taped weights to little plastic clips ( smallest HF clamps) for extremely test / easy relocation.
Having the weights near correct O'clock , but inboard of typical location , wont introduce that much error during static. Would be a bigger deal on a dynamic balance ...


Thought too late to check bare wheel static balance with bare rim PLUS inner tube inflated just enough to stay on rim , to see how heavy spot moved.
Next time will do but sure hope not to change tires soon!

I realized I could hide weights INSIDE the wheel cavity ( the cone , hidden by the final drive / ie spline cavity) in order to not muck up the polished wheel.
There is plenty of clearance inside there for stick on weights.
Might take a little more weight nearer axle like that, or even cause weird secondary imbalances , but it is a total guess where the unbalance mass is on that casting, and the rear is so heavy, I doubt any reason to NOT hide weights there. Halfway thought about drilling some of the holes on the disc larger to act as " negative" weights. Then thought naw no way. Although the disc is a part of the whell balance and its possible to do just that.


I'll use real lead stick on weights inside that cavity ; if a taped weight ever came off, a steel weight inside there might do some damage,
but soft lead weights will just get mauled, no way spinning wheel battering lead weights will cause breakage of any thing but the weight itself.

A GT brand wheel stand. WHO SAYS YOU CANT DO WHEEL STANDS WITH AN AIRHEAD ??

Below is why I can't have nice things; just hate to throw any junk away cos I'll find a use for it the day after its gone.
So I turned that old small D swing arm & removed / scored disc into a wheel balancing / wheel polishing / wheel truing stand that works pretty good ( anybody have a Snowflake Spoke Wrench to loan out? jk)
I seen lots of table lamps made from discarded bike parts, but a polished snowflake lamp on that Art De(struct)Co stand would make a great disco mirror ball.


Checked the wheel truing I had done , dial indicators, like before . I'll do before & after graphs laters, wanted to check the work ,

But can say already that Dave Moore Wheel Service in Apple Vally CA achieved some decent results,
San Jose BMW led me to him, , good sign of a good ol guy.

I can recommend giving Dave a shout about your bent wheel, been doing this for 50 years.
He's easy to find on web

 

[gtgt_bangbang]

I balance my wheels to zero with electrical tape on the weights. I then mount the tire & inflate it to the recommended pressure. When I put it back on the balancer I now know where the heaviest area of the tire is. I mark the heaviest area of the tire with a tape arrow. Then I break the bead & rotate the arrow on the tire to the center of the weights that I have taped on the wheel. Then I remove the weights that I have taped to the wheel & now I'm ready to balance the wheel & tire. Sometimes the dots on the tires are in the correct spot & sometimes they are way off.

nice

 

[gtgt_bangbang]

PMarc Parnes balancer.

pics please

 

[craydds]

pics please

For a couple of pics of the Marc Parnes balancer, look at post #2 here: https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?100639-Dunlop-Roadsmart-IV-s-I-mount-them-myself . Also, see: http://www.marcparnes.com/BMW_Motorcycle_Wheel_Balancer.htm .

 

[gtgt_bangbang]

lets play Hide The Wheels Weights on a rear snowflake

going to stash my rear snowflake wheel weights in here so no body steals'em.
Looks better / cleaner / faster too IMO

I mean, why NOT? Need dismount the wheel anyway to re-balance / change tire

I'm only daring to use actual lead weights there, in case they dislodge, probably hear them before they can do any lasting damage.
If a STEEL or zinc weight dislodged in there, I would fear the worst and probably not be disappointed .


do I HAVE to say, nope not attaching with painter tape, thats for a glamor shot . movie magic .
Might even go as far setting the weights in a little strip of epoxy, wouldnt be too hard to remove later with a bit of heat and a dremel.

 

[gtgt_bangbang]

Marc Parnes balancer, [/url] .

oh yea thanks!