How to improve the MOA forum.

[billy walker]

........

The unfortunate thing for "both sides" of the MOA membership is this seems to have caused some rifts and potential damage.

Isn't it amazing in America where you're allowed to state opinions you will cause rifts and potential damage. How narrow minded people can be. It's OK to state your own opinion as long as I agree with it. You even see it in national politics. Threats made at people who happen to have a different opinion. What the...?

 

[Bud]

That's the point, disagreement is discouraged here. You guys would cry to mommie from some of the discussions at the vba.


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I might, if I knew what the vba was.

 

[mika]

Isn't it amazing in America where you're allowed to state opinions you will cause rifts and potential damage. How narrow minded people can be. It's OK to state your own opinion as long as I agree with it. You even see it in national politics. Threats made at people who happen to have a different opinion. What the...?

Opinions are wonderful things. How they get stated is not always as wonderful. I will agree both sides see the other as narrow minded people. I asked a question that was never answered. I will leave that line of observations at that if allowed.

 

[billy walker]

That's the point, disagreement is discouraged here. You guys would cry to mommie from some of the discussions at the vba.


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Let's point the finger where it belongs: People like me. People who will continue to do business with BMW despite obvious issues. People like this forum but fear a disruption of the BMW relationship. Now there's good reasoning. Fear of offending BMW. Does it ruin the concept of the group to have an advocate? Of course not. But people worry if we don't follow through on kissing BMW's ass we'll have problems.

I've said this before so we'll limit this to one more utterance: I still don't think anyone is offended by BMW knowingly handing out faulty product. Is it possible I am the only one bothered by this stance? Am I the only one who thinks something is wrong when BMW ignores federal recall procedures 15 times? Apparently so. This is why NA has no issues with employees doing wrong. We actually support this attitude by our silence. I have a BMW rep tell me to my face he doesn't care what I think. This is done while I'm supporting a valid customer issue. The core of the apple is rotten from the top down. The sounds of silence on issues of this nature indicate the club is OK with that. We are all guilty.

I'm disappointed with the lack of care and concern for fellow BMW riders. Instead we prefer to make fun of people who crashed because they ran out of gas. And, remind ourselves of what idiots they must be. The club may have a primary mission of kissing BMW's ass but it should certainly support what is both ethical and right. I only wish others felt the same way. I respect opinions even those I deem to be wrong. After all who the hell am I to insist I am in the right? End of story, end of examples.

 

[billy walker]

........

Can anyone outline the position? What are the duties? How will they be performed? What are the qualifications this person should have? What are the performance expectations and evaluation standards for the position?

.......

The poll was meant to ask a question in an exploratory manner. All of your questions are more than valid. But given the attitude of the overall audience why waste time to develop a real program if people are against the concept anyway? If the poll was looking positive for advocacy that would be an ideal point to explain how advocacy could work. And obtain other opinions. We're a long ways off from putting something solid down at this point in time.

I remain respectful of other opinions despite what appears to me to be obvious short comings in the club attitude. Last I looked no one made me supreme ruler.

 

[espressoforyou]

A Follow up to your valid points that is going to raise some blood pressure

Let's point the finger where it belongs: People like me. People who will continue to do business with BMW despite obvious issues. People like this forum but fear a disruption of the BMW relationship. Now there's good reasoning. Fear of offending BMW. Does it ruin the concept of the group to have an advocate? Of course not. But people worry if we don't follow through on kissing BMW's ass we'll have problems.

I've said this before so we'll limit this to one more utterance: I still don't think anyone is offended by BMW knowingly handing out faulty product. Is it possible I am the only one bothered by this stance? Am I the only one who thinks something is wrong when BMW ignores federal recall procedures 15 times? Apparently so. This is why NA has no issues with employees doing wrong. We actually support this attitude by our silence. I have a BMW rep tell me to my face he doesn't care what I think. This is done while I'm supporting a valid customer issue. The core of the apple is rotten from the top down. The sounds of silence on issues of this nature indicate the club is OK with that. We are all guilty.

I'm disappointed with the lack of care and concern for fellow BMW riders. Instead we prefer to make fun of people who crashed because they ran out of gas. And, remind ourselves of what idiots they must be. The club may have a primary mission of kissing BMW's ass but it should certainly support what is both ethical and right. I only wish others felt the same way. I respect opinions even those I deem to be wrong. After all who the hell am I to insist I am in the right? End of story, end of examples.

Who supplies the bikes that the BMW MOA raffles away? Does the MOA buy the bikes from the dealers, do the dealers donate the bikes to the MOA and/or does BMW NA donate the bikes. If BMW NA does donate the bikes is that the reason why they don't want to rattle any cages at BMW NA.

If I am wrong about the bikes being donated and having a possible influence on the MOA then I apologize. But if it is true then it is hard to bite the hand that feed you.

That is the main reason why Consumer Reports buys all of the product that they test.

Let me make sure I get this point out. After talking with Greg last week I feel that he is a good and talented leader and I am not implying anything negative toward him.

 

[20774]

I asked Greg to rescind my membership and he hasn't.

Not Greg's responsibility. Please call or email the office (ask for Beth) and arrange for your membership to be canceled. Thanks...

 

[Bud]

Who supplies the bikes that the BMW MOA raffles away? Does the MOA buy the bikes from the dealers, do the dealers donate the bikes to the MOA and/or does BMW NA donate the bikes. If BMW NA does donate the bikes is that the reason why they don't want to rattle any cages at BMW NA.

If I am wrong about the bikes being donated and having a possible influence on the MOA then I apologize. But if it is true then it is hard to bite the hand that feed you.

That is the main reason why Consumer Reports buys all of the product that they test.

Let me make sure I get this point out. After talking with Greg last week I feel that he is a good and talented leader and I am not implying anything negative toward him.

Rather than make unfounded speculations, why not call the office and ask?

 

[20774]

Rather than make unfounded speculations, why not call the office and ask?

+500

 

[kantuckid]

I'm still in the "we need an ombudsman mode" & just finished reading what might be an e.g., of a type of role they could play? I now own a 2012 BMW G650GS that my seller(active duty helo pilot with 24hr duty cycle) spent a great deal of time ,money & effort to not only purchase but as it failed him several times soon after purchase, it was utterly undependable. It had whats called the "hot start problem" & left him stranded when refueling several times. To state briefly, the 1st dealer (ATL) failed to execute the specified & current service bulletin repair & problem recurred. Guy took it to another dealer(Pensacola) & repair was made properly per service bulletin & MC is w/o problems.
A club ombudsman that was equipped with this type information via a working relationship with BMWNA could foster a relationship to the machines that is positive, not negative as alluded to in many post questioning the idea of such a "middle person" for members. There are several owners ( obviously I have zero idea of the true total size of the problem but it's large enough that parts were mfg. to rectify the issue) of this specific MC that are in the never again mode toward the brand based on the simple reality of having this problem & combined dealer failure to make a proper repair. My take on this is it was a known problem for a good while that even if you did provide bulletin copies to dealers it didn't always result in the correct repair per BMWNA. If this sort of info was made privy to an ombudsman than it could be a "go to" help center for members with MC problems? A club tech line that knew this stuff perhaps another answer? The notion that one must "find out the hard way" what keeps them from having a functional MC is not cool, no matter how you phrase it!
Now, having written this I must admit that perhaps it's a futile idea when the dealers that are "supposed to know", don't know in the first place ,or they will not make the called for repair or take correct action unless you sort of "force it on them" and furthermore if it's kept at the service bulletin level as opposed to a recall , then how could we expect that sort of mfg. to really give a crap about the owners of said MC's? Apparently it's going to cost them money then it's sort of swept under the rug to a certain extent? Point being that if we are talking of a mfg that is not after true customer satisfaction then the naysayers on the club having an ombudsman are in fact correct in holding to the further development of adversarial relations by attempting member satisfaction activities.
Heck, this could even mean that some club employees would not get access to BMW corporate MC releases ,interviews,product tests,etc.?

 

[kantuckid]

Not Greg's responsibility. Please call or email the office (ask for Beth) and arrange for your membership to be canceled. Thanks...

One would think if a valuable item were in fact donated that the donor(any business relishes good PR?) would want/allow that to be public info.? Not being one that pays any attention to the raffle thing it is just a quick page turn event for me, so just a thought...

 

[20774]

kantuckid -

I'm a little confused on your quote and response? My post was about a completely different point.

 

[espressoforyou]

Ombudsman, might be a more reasonable option over advocate

Thanks Kantuckid for expressing your views. An ombudsman position might be a great compromise. Your example of the G650 was the perfect example of why it would be beneficial for MOA members to have this "clearinghouse" of information. There are some G650 riders that will live with the 'Hot starting" for months or years until they stumble on a dealer that corrects the problem or they might sell the bike and move to a different brand.

That is a great idea to have all the service bulletins, recalls notices and riders posting if the are having a repeated problem that can not be fixed. The ombudsman would be able to notice a trend. This information could be posted on the forum under models so that members could refer to the information if they are having a problem with their bike.

Have the moderators build a new heading called Resource Center or something like that.

Under Resource Center have it broke down by models just like on "Garage" page. Make the information easy to find so that the members do not have to look at hundreds of postings to see if they can find a posting about their issue at hand.

Information is knowledge, we have the information scattered among all our members. Let's just put it in a format that will be easy to index and use.

 

[espressoforyou]

How many of the members viewing or replying to this post ever worked for a dealer?

I never have and wager that 95% of you never have been employed by a BMW dealer or BMW NA.

So Billy Walker worked for BMW dealer for many years and seen how BMW NA treats it's dealers and its customers. From what Billy has stated it is not a pretty picture. BMW NA makes the dealers kick in for part of the warranty repair work that in many cases were defects for the factory.

So I am suggesting that unless you worked for a dealer in the service side of the business then you do not have a true understanding how BMW NA treats it dealers or if BMW NA will readily admit fault when they put out a defective product.

I think I so a post from Billy where he has handle over 4,000 service claims.


Billy has made many well thought out and informed comments and I appreciate the time and effort.

Thanks Billy.

 

[billy walker]

Rather than make unfounded speculations, why not call the office and ask?

You've got to admit... this is an excellent point!

No need for speculation when answers are a phone call away.

 

[billy walker]

I'm still in the "we need an ombudsman mode" & just finished reading what might be an e.g., of a type of role they could play? I now own a 2012 BMW G650GS that my seller(active duty helo pilot with 24hr duty cycle) spent a great deal of time ,money & effort to not only purchase but as it failed him several times soon after purchase, it was utterly undependable. It had whats called the "hot start problem" & left him stranded when refueling several times. To state briefly, the 1st dealer (ATL) failed to execute the specified & current service bulletin repair & problem recurred. Guy took it to another dealer(Pensacola) & repair was made properly per service bulletin & MC is w/o problems.
A club ombudsman that was equipped with this type information via a working relationship with BMWNA could foster a relationship to the machines that is positive, not negative as alluded to in many post questioning the idea of such a "middle person" for members. There are several owners ( obviously I have zero idea of the true total size of the problem but it's large enough that parts were mfg. to rectify the issue) of this specific MC that are in the never again mode toward the brand based on the simple reality of having this problem & combined dealer failure to make a proper repair. My take on this is it was a known problem for a good while that even if you did provide bulletin copies to dealers it didn't always result in the correct repair per BMWNA. If this sort of info was made privy to an ombudsman than it could be a "go to" help center for members with MC problems? A club tech line that knew this stuff perhaps another answer? The notion that one must "find out the hard way" what keeps them from having a functional MC is not cool, no matter how you phrase it!
Now, having written this I must admit that perhaps it's a futile idea when the dealers that are "supposed to know", don't know in the first place ,or they will not make the called for repair or take correct action unless you sort of "force it on them" and furthermore if it's kept at the service bulletin level as opposed to a recall , then how could we expect that sort of mfg. to really give a crap about the owners of said MC's? Apparently it's going to cost them money then it's sort of swept under the rug to a certain extent? Point being that if we are talking of a mfg that is not after true customer satisfaction then the naysayers on the club having an ombudsman are in fact correct in holding to the further development of adversarial relations by attempting member satisfaction activities.
Heck, this could even mean that some club employees would not get access to BMW corporate MC releases ,interviews,product tests,etc.?

In the age of multi-franchise big box stores it is indeed difficult for dealers to stay on top of things, and in fact they fail frequently from the sales side to the service department. Just way, way too much information to be absorbed. This does not lessen the requirement that they do stay on top of things however. Multi-franchise big box stores are nothing but a mistake from the consumer side. Today's economics however won't allow single franchise stores to stay in business much of the time. Sometimes the dealers fault, sometimes the geographic location. It's not easy out there.

 

[espressoforyou]

I agree Billy, my bad on that. I just sent a PM to Greg.

You've got to admit... this is an excellent point!

No need for speculation when answers are a phone call away.

Yep, I made a mistake on that. Sorry for the speculation when I could have easily gotten the facts.

I hope the MOA does get the bikes donated by BMW NA, I would applaud the MOA if they do.

I should be hearing back from Greg pretty quick I expect.

Billy, could you post a little background on your work history with the BMW dealer network. 95% of us members have never worked for a BMW dealer and I am sure your insight is far more clear than the rest of us.

 

[billy walker]

...........

So Billy Walker worked for BMW dealer for many years and seen how BMW NA treats it's dealers and its customers. From what Billy has stated it is not a pretty picture. BMW NA makes the dealers kick in for part of the warranty repair work that in many cases were defects for the factory.

Randy, this needs to be clarified. BMW does not ask dealers to pay for warranty work although the stated flat rate time may not be adequete under some circumstances. They will frequently ask dealers to pick up a part of the cost for goodwill repairs. Goodwill means after a unit is out of warranty.

So I am suggesting that unless you worked for a dealer in the service side of the business then you do not have a true understanding how BMW NA treats it dealers or if BMW NA will readily admit fault when they put out a defective product.

I think I so a post from Billy where he has handle over 4,000 service claims.

OK to quote me but please make the quote accurate. I have not made 4,000 service claims in my life. Over a 4 year period we increased repair order count from approximately 2,500 per year to approximately 4,000 per year. All that means is we performed work on approximately 4,000 units per year by the time I left.


...............

Thanks Billy.[/QUOTE]

I sincerely appreciate your thought. I just ask to please fully comprehend what I'm saying prior to posting quotes from me. And, never forget the act of posting my quotes does not automatically make me right no matter what you nor I think of myself. My goal is to be fair and to do what is right. Different people can and will have different opinions on what they deem to be right.

 

[billy walker]

Yep, I made a mistake on that. Sorry for the speculation when I could have easily gotten the facts.

I hope the MOA does get the bikes donated by BMW NA, I would applaud the MOA if they do.

I should be hearing back from Greg pretty quick I expect.

Billy, could you post a little background on your work history with the BMW dealer network. 95% of us members have never worked for a BMW dealer and I am sure your insight is far more clear than the rest of us.

1) 30-years in motorcycle business - 4 years with a BMW dealer - an honest dealer.
2) Although I am not a technician I have substantial technical background - I am hired for my management skills however - I value honesty, quality and profitability - I manage with Judeo-Christian principles and expect certain things to have more importance than nailing down every single dollar you can - dealer principal had zero problems with my principles.
3) Exceptionally strong belief in consumer rights - if I demand profitability the customer has every right to expect things to be correct from me.
3) Over a 4-year span was responsible for the management of approximately 13,000 repair orders.
4) As strongly as I feel I am right I am imperfect at best.

Far more to the story but that is the Reader Digest version.

 

[espressoforyou]

Sorry for the misquote. I search back but could not find your post.

Randy, this needs to be clarified. BMW does not ask dealers to pay for warranty work although the stated flat rate time may not be adequete under some circumstances. They will frequently ask dealers to pick up a part of the cost for goodwill repairs. Goodwill means after a unit is out of warranty.



OK to quote me but please make the quote accurate. I have not made 4,000 service claims in my life. Over a 4 year period we increased repair order count from approximately 2,500 per year to approximately 4,000 per year. All that means is we performed work on approximately 4,000 units per year by the time I left.


...............

Thanks Billy.

I sincerely appreciate your thought. I just ask to please fully comprehend what I'm saying prior to posting quotes from me. And, never forget the act of posting my quotes does not automatically make me right no matter what you nor I think of myself. My goal is to be fair and to do what is right. Different people can and will have different opinions on what they deem to be right.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for clearing up my inaccuracies in the dealer having to pay for part of the warranty work. I am going by memory but I believe that David Bloodworth at Bloodworth BMW in Nashville said that for warranty work BMW only pays a certain percent of the flat rate. I could have misunderstood him.

So I was way low on your service claims numbers.

I bet that there are less than 10 members on the forum that worked for thirty 30 years at a motorcycle dealer much less 4 years at a BMW dealer.

So with all the power I have vested in me by the MOA I pronounce you The Expert in what goes on at the average dealership. As The Expert your starting salary will be $197,250 plus expenses of course.

Thanks for your insight.