How to improve the MOA forum.

[ponch1]

Ponch, I am part of the problem as you state totally guilty as charged. Shame on me to the max. I am one of the first to say I love BMW motorcycles and I also love the quality of their clothing. On the other hand I am exceptionally well versed with some of the known issues as well as the level of arrogance contained within the walls of NA.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: I am an idiot for purchasing BMW product because as an individual I help them to continue in their actions. Your reference to competition is absolutely correct. Unfortunately I'm such an idiot that it is doubtful that I will own anything other than BMW product as my choice for long distance riding. I am absolutely part of the problem.

Admitting the problem is the first step in solving it. I try not to get attached to most things in that I would never walk away. At that point we are owned. To do so for someone else's creation is nutty to me. Then again i am not a true believer in much of anything except death and taxes.


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[Bud]

Admitting the problem is the first step in solving it. I try not to get attached to most things in that I would never walk away. At that point we are owned. To do so for someone else's creation is nutty to me. Then again i am not a true believer in much of anything except death and taxes.


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Ponch

Sure enjoyed reading My Motorrad

 

[ponch1]

Ponch

Sure enjoyed reading My Motorrad

Thank you.

 

[espressoforyou]

Greg, could you put a poll question together and post it?

I made the suggestion much earlier in this thread for those who thought they had a better idea to develop a proposal for the MOA Board. Now I see discussion about whether there is support for such a thing. It's not realistic to expect the Board to say they support something until there is a fairly well defined proposal to evaluate and respond to. Good ideas come from all different directions, and often a great idea comes from a not-so-great one that was sent back for rework. Again - if you want to see change - be part of it.

My personal suggestions - and these are personal and you are free to take them or leave them as you choose - would be to first decide if you are proposing a "mediator" or "advocate" role for the club. There is a world of difference, not the least of which is that advocacy requires complete validation of the plaintiff's claims and will remove the club from any hint of neutrality. However, it is an approach used by some organizations.

Secondly, based on my experience, this must be a confidential process between the specific parties, and most certainly not conducted on forums or other social media. IMHO such things complete distort the process, harden positions, and reduce flexibility of the parties involved. However, some people like circuses and believe strongly in the power of consumers applying pressure through social media. Again - these are my personal suggestions - do as you will with your ideas.

Below is a list of elements generally considered to be required for a good project outline. A useful first draft of an idea doesn't have address all of them, but at some point before a final decision can be made just about all of them will need some type of an answer. For now, think of them as thought triggers to help in consideration of all sides of your ideas.

I will leave you with this: this is fundamentally a volunteer membership driven club. At the end of the day it's the club the member's want either because of their involvement, or the lack thereof. Anyone can throw stones, but it takes work and thought to stack them together into something useful.


Project Definition Required Elements

Purpose?This section should answer the "Why?" question and clearly communicate the expected business value. It should reference the organizational objective being supported, the business problem being solved, and its relative priority level.

Goals and Objectives?This section is derived from the Purpose and communicates the targeted outcomes for the project. It should answer the "What are you going to accomplish?" question.

Success Criteria?Closely related to Goals and Objectives, this section should list the measurable, verifiable results that will determine
the success level of this project. This section is often referred to as Critical Success Factors.

Project Context?Documents how this project relates to other projects within the product program and within the organization as a whole. This section should also describe how the project fits within the organization and business process flow.

Project Dependencies?Closely related to Project Context, this section dearly documents any dependencies that could impact the results or success factors of this project.

Scope Specifications?Clearly designates the organizational, process, systems, and functional specification boundaries for the project. Should be high-level breakdown of the Goals and Objectives.

Out-of-Scope Specifications?To better communicate what is considered to be "in scope," it is recommended that you clearly indicate the high level work items that are related (or associated) to this initiative, but are not part of this project.

Assumptions?This section clearly communicates the underlying basis or things to be considered true in regards to any other aspect of this document. In most cases, the Scope, Out-of-Scope, Assumptions, and Constraints sections combine to clearly define what work will be performed by this project.

Constraints?This section lists any business event, schedule, budgetary, resource, or technical factor that will limit the options available to the project.

Risks?This section lists any uncertain event or condition (risk) that, if it occurs, could have a negative impact on one or more project success criterion (schedule, budget, quality, and so on). For each risk, it is good to list the related causes, the perceived negative impacts, the likelihood it will occur, and the planned response strategy and action items.

Stakeholders?This section lists all the individuals, business units, and organizations involved in the project, the role(s) each is expected to play, and an indication of how they relate to one another. A Project Organization chart and a Stakeholder-Role
Description Table is highly recommended here.

Recommended Project Approach?To better describe the intent of the initiative, this section highlights the recommended approach to getting the work of the project done and why it was selected over any other options. This section should note any key strategies, methodologies, and technologies to be used.

Greg, I think a well written poll from the MOA President might be the only way to get to the bottom of this. How the poll question is written up will influence the poll out come. Maybe be have people post suggestions how the poll question should be written.

 

[Bud]

Greg, I think a well written poll from the MOA President might be the only way to get to the bottom of this. How the poll question is written up will influence the poll out come. Maybe be have people post suggestions how the poll question should be written.

With no disrespect intended, Greg already gives more time to this organization than almost anyone else I know. Asking him to do the legwork to pursue this issue, after he gave detailed steps on how members who have a vested interest in moving this issue forward, seems to be presumptuous.

If you have an agenda, it is up to you to do the work to move it forward.

 

[20774]

Information here on how to start a poll.

http://forums.bmwmoa.org/faq.php?faq=vb3_reading_posting#faq_vb3_polls

 

[mika]

Mika, IMO the Board is secondary. First you need to see if there is worthwhile interest among the membership. The membership should be controlling the Board, not vice versa. Should that interest be present you then submit a concept to the membership. Should interest remain you then submit to the Board to get things rolling. Should there be no interest amongst the membership why present anything to the Board? We all have other things to do in life.

Many paths lead to the same destination. Reaching the destination depends on taking a step down one of the paths. As you point out we all have other things to do in life. I have things to do, places to go, people to see and windmills to tilt at. I have little time for the paralysis of analysis in this area. Good luck what ever you decide.

 

[billy walker]

With no disrespect intended, Greg already gives more time to this organization than almost anyone else I know. Asking him to do the legwork to pursue this issue, after he gave detailed steps on how members who have a vested interest in moving this issue forward, seems to be presumptuous.

If you have an agenda, it is up to you to do the work to move it forward.

Actually I think it shows a sign of respect towards Greg's intelligence and the handling of this matter. This is a compliment aimed at Greg. If Greg is too busy I imagine he'll tell us.

 

[billy walker]

Information here on how to start a poll.

http://forums.bmwmoa.org/faq.php?faq=vb3_reading_posting#faq_vb3_polls

Thank you for this post. However, I have yet to see any real signs of interest. IMO little to no interest means no poll. No need to upset what may be the silent majority. Their here to enjoy the club as opposed to advocacy assaults on NA. We'll see what happens over the next week or so.

 

[gregfeeler]

Greg, I think a well written poll from the MOA President might be the only way to get to the bottom of this. How the poll question is written up will influence the poll out come. Maybe be have people post suggestions how the poll question should be written.

I don't have a dog in this fight. Which is another way of saying I'm impartial. What I've suggested is direct action by an interested group of members to advance a proposal for change. I'm reading posts which honestly are begging the question of what should happen next - if anything. Historically (my history) when a few advocate for something and others don't jump in, that's a *strong* indication of lack of support. As billy walker hinted at in one of his posts, the members should drive the Board. I agree. But, that means there needs to be a strong base of member support - not just a handful of passionate advocates. So, the idea of a poll - even an unscientific one here on the forum - would seem to me like a good place to start. As billy said, if people don't support it...

 

[billy walker]

................. But, that means there needs to be a strong base of member support - not just a handful of passionate advocates. ..............

Worded better than I...

 

[espressoforyou]

Here is my suggested poll, but I think someone else should post it

I don't have a dog in this fight. Which is another way of saying I'm impartial. What I've suggested is direct action by an interested group of members to advance a proposal for change. I'm reading posts which honestly are begging the question of what should happen next - if anything. Historically (my history) when a few advocate for something and others don't jump in, that's a *strong* indication of lack of support. As billy walker hinted at in one of his posts, the members should drive the Board. I agree. But, that means there needs to be a strong base of member support - not just a handful of passionate advocates. So, the idea of a poll - even an unscientific one here on the forum - would seem to me like a good place to start. As billy said, if people don't support it...

Billy or Greg should probably clean up the wording a bit. I would prefer someone else post the poll under their name. I suggest Greg or Billy post it because they do not have negative feelings associated which there names.

I would suggest the wording be something like this, but feel free to improve it any way you want.

The basic questions is: Should the MOA have a more active role in helping its members with their communication with BMW NA and the dealers concerning defective or possible defective motorcycles? Should we make the members go at it on their own against BMW NA or should an advocate with 40,000 members encourage BMW NA to listen and address known problems. Take the final drive issue. It was a known defect from the factory that BMW continued to ignore and deny that a possible problem existed. Would it have helped if the MOA had the means to keep track of how many defected final drives were out there, at what mileage was their mean failure, did some owners get help from BMW NA and others did not and why not?

If BMW NA hears from 100's of owners with final drive failures one at a time then they can easily stall and deny that a problem exists. But if the MOA presented data showing that several hundred members have had problems with final drives with names, serial numbers, mileage and repair history then it might be harder for BMW NA to deny that a problem exists.

Think about it. Why do you hear about the "Million Man March" and not about the 6 people that march to city hall with a grievance? Collective bargaining is another example. Which gets the corporation attention: 10 people with a grievance or a 40,000 membership?

So here is the polling questions that I suggest and the introduction to the question.

"Considering that there have been past defects such as the final drive issue that BMW NA was hesitant to address. Should the MOA have a more active role in gathering data on possible defects and presenting this information collectively to BMW NA in the hopes of a more rapid and favorable response to its members concern about possible product defects.

Please answer the following question.

YES I would like the MOA to have a more active role in gathering and presenting data and grievances to BMW NA concerning possible product defects and other pressing issues.

NO, I would like the MOA to NOT be an advocate for its members in bringing its members concerns about possible defects and other concerns to BMW NA.

A polling question similar to this would help decide if there is any interest in this matter or not. Then another poll or questionnaire could help narrow the focus to what the members really want.

 

[billy walker]

..........
Think about it. Why do you hear about the "Million Man March" and not about the 6 people that march to city hall with a grievance? Collective bargaining is another example. Which gets the corporation attention: 10 people with a grievance or a 40,000 membership?

So here is the polling questions that I suggest and the introduction to the question.

"Considering that there have been past defects such as the final drive issue that BMW NA was hesitant to address. Should the MOA have a more active role in gathering data on possible defects and presenting this information collectively to BMW NA in the hopes of a more rapid and favorable response to its members concern about possible product defects.

Please answer the following question.

YES I would like the MOA to have a more active role in gathering and presenting data and grievances to BMW NA concerning possible product defects and other pressing issues.

NO, I would like the MOA to NOT be an advocate for its members in bringing its members concerns about possible defects and other concerns to BMW NA.

A polling question similar to this would help decide if there is any interest in this matter or not. Then another poll or questionnaire could help narrow the focus to what the members really want.

Randy, so far I see very little evidence that members wish to pursue this course of action. I don't know why but fact are facts. If this is the best we can do in level of interest I have no desire to annoy the silent majority.

 

[espressoforyou]

Good point Billy,

Randy, so far I see very little evidence that members wish to pursue this course of action. I don't know why but fact are facts. If this is the best we can do in level of interest I have no desire to annoy the silent majority.

I will wait and couple of days and see if any body chimes in with suggestions on how to write the poll. If not then I will but up a poll myself.

I enjoyed talking to Greg last week and he is a very nice, sharp guy and probably a very good MOA President. But I don't think that he want to stir things up with the members or BMW NA for that matter. Maybe he knows that the most members are "fat and happy" so why stir anything up that cause division in the membership. Who knows, might cause a group to split off and take members with it.

Doesn't make sense to me why the President would not want to take point on this matter and try and help his membership get on somewhat even playing field with BMW NA.

I appreciate Greg taking the time to talk to me last week and I am sure he has a tough job keeping everybody happy while watching the bottom line.

 

[billy walker]

..................

Doesn't make sense to me why the President would not want to take point on this matter and try and help his membership get on somewhat even playing field with BMW NA. ..............

Randy, I'm seeing no interest in this matter as of this writing. Apparently you are?

 

[kantuckid]

The best way to deal with this sort of thing is directly and realistically. So, to Randy, MOA isn't going to help and BMWNA isn't going to give you what you want or may even deserve. Not happening on both accounts and the order of the day is Res Ipsa Loquitur. The thing speaks for itself. If it were me, I'd have someone crush the bike down to the size of a basketball and deliver it to BMWNA and tell them thanks, and then move on to another brand. They don't deserve your loyalty and the issue is done. Anything else is a waste of time.

My FIL (RIP)was a no nonsense type of guy. Having bought an Olds Toranado & after That! experience (lets say it was not a jewel...) for a bit he had me follow him to the sellers lot one Sunday(they were closed) & left it off at the gate with the keys locked inside, no notes, no phone calls,no arguments, no lawyers,no BBB,no club ombudsman,no anything except he ate the few payments he'd made & "gave it back" via free delivery...
Perhaps this is "off-topic" but I have always thought it makes for a cute Kentucky consumer affairs tale.

 

[kantuckid]

Thank you for this post. However, I have yet to see any real signs of interest. IMO little to no interest means no poll. No need to upset what may be the silent majority. Their here to enjoy the club as opposed to advocacy assaults on NA. We'll see what happens over the next week or so.

I suspect that in a club like MOA, what with an aging membership that there are more than a few non-web users,so just who/how many does a poll reach other than ON readers? Also, from my "brief career" as a member of an international service club I found that being elected Pres/Secretary & Treas,etc. ad infinitum wore on my interest after ~ 8 yrs., meaning only that in MOA (or any other club) only a very few hold office,chair for a rally,serve in a group, or even go to a rally & whatever else comes along too.
Most of us "lurk our way" through our membership experience which makes for a difficult representative poll result. I'm wondering how many voted in the recent election, as an e.g.? Heck, people in this country often didn't vote for "the" pres or even know who is what or what is where much less MC affairs.

 

[espressoforyou]

How about a paid advocate?

I would not mind paying an extra $3.00 per year to have paid advocate gather the data concerning possible defects by bike and year. Then compile the data in a spreadsheet where we can track patterns of repeated failures, repair history and success/failures in getting BMW NA to admit fault/pay for the repairs.

$3.00 x 40,000 members would raise $120,000. That should cover the cost of an advocate or advocates. Might have 2 part time advocates working on the project. One advocate might specialize in data collection, the other one could be the front man going to bat for the members.

 

[martyhill]

It would appear from reading this thread that 4 guys might donate. Seems like a really good start.

 

[EvryDayRide]

I have been following this thread from the beginning and watched it go from, How to improve the MOA forum, to starting a Advocate position in the MOA. If a member was just browsing the Forum, you could easily miss the direction this thread has gone from the thread title?

I have done business with two BMW dealerships. One went out of business. No corporate support while they were struggling. The other one has also had their issues with corporate support through the years. I do not get BMW NA's lack of support to the people selling and fixing their product? This is the point of contact for us, the consumer.

I figure if I have issues with my BMW I am on my own. I never joined the MOA organization thinking it would help me deal with BMW NA if I have problems. However, I would support an Advocate position if they could crack BMW NA to look at some of the common problems that their motorcycles have? It is worth a try? The worse thing that could happen is nothing. Then we will be right back where we are. Put up the Poll. I vote yes!!!

John