Stumped - r1150r won't start

jeff.ferguson said:

Albeit regretfully, I am tapping out and will take it to the dealer for repair. I spent the past two hours taking apart the kill switch/starter hosing and I couldn't see any broken wires. I got in as far as I could - going in any further, like to the wiring under the ignition, probably exceeds my skill and patience. Now, without having a pickup, I have to figure out how to get it to the dealer.

Don't suppose anyone in Omaha reading this thread has a pickup or trailer and would like to hook a brother up?!?! I'll buy beer, whiskey, or scotch (what the hell, maybe all three)! Or, if you're not into that, a tankful of gas.

Thanks to everyone on this thread - I really do appreciate all the good advice. If nothing else, I learned how to remove the gas tank and access the battery and air filter.

Click to expand...

We all like to help.

Here's a couple reasons you should chill with a beer and rethink your position:

1/ Your last sentence.

2/ Some(I would say most) very good mechanics don't have a good grasp of electrical principles. Add that to shop liability and you end up with a mechanic who starts replacing things without having found the root cause, you get to buy all the parts.

3/ When we solve this as a group(but mostly you), you will become very empowered and confident. A valuable asset far from home.

I vote don't quit.

I think it is very important that you do not quit trying to solve this.
It is important beyond being known on this forum and elsewhere perhaps as a quitter.
What will the dealer do? The same things that are being posted here. But free? Oh no, at great expense.
And once you do find the problem, you will realize how simple and easy the answer really was.
You are asking for a tow or a ride for the bike to the dealer.
Instead, do you know anyone with a volt meter? Anyone who knows much about vehicle electrical wiring.
I know I have a neighbor who would find the problem with the meter in a few minutes.
So why spend a fortune at the dealer.
Give it a few thoughts. You may solve the problem yourself.
dc

Albeit regretfully, I am tapping out and will take it to the dealer for repair. I spent the past two hours taking apart the kill switch/starter hosing and I couldn't see any broken wires. I got in as far as I could - going in any further, like to the wiring under the ignition, probably exceeds my skill and patience. Now, without having a pickup, I have to figure out how to get it to the dealer.

Don't suppose anyone in Omaha reading this thread has a pickup or trailer and would like to hook a brother up?!?! I'll buy beer, whiskey, or scotch (what the hell, maybe all three)! Or, if you're not into that, a tankful of gas.

Thanks to everyone on this thread - I really do appreciate all the good advice. If nothing else, I learned how to remove the gas tank and access the battery and air filter.

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that have given up. The left and right handgrip assemblies always look fairly simple. But, they are much more complex then most people realize. They can be a little intimidating for the average mechanic. I might suggest that you see if you have a local BMW club nearby. You might be able to get someone to come over and help you. Let us know how it all works out.

A few years back, I put risers on my R1150 as well. Same thing No start. Double checked my work....I had unplugged the clutch wire @ the switch inside the plastic cover...and did-not-know it. Just standing there it looked fine, but pulled back the cover and it was obvious.... Plugged it back together....all was well.,,,

Check that and everything involved in the riser install.

WOW, I didn't expect so many to jump on me for giving up! I get it that I SHOULD continue, but the problem is I'm afraid I'll make matters worse. However, I am willing to try the paperclip tactic if someone can tell me how to do it. But before I do that, I have a question that a buddy and I thought about today.....

So the fuel pump and the starter are not working....or so it appears. After much thought, I'm wondering - does the fuel pump have to "prime" before the starter will engage? If that is so, then I need to resolve the fuel pump issue first. Can I use the paperclip method on the fuel pump relay?

As a general rule in life, I am not a quitter, but I am also a realist and can realize when something exceeds my capabilities. I'll keep trying for a few days, but I have limited time to devote to this. I left work early to try and fix it today, but that's not an option for the next few weeks based on workload at the office. I have 4 kids, so as many of you know, that simply prohibits me from living in the garage 'til it's fixed. And the biggest issue is that I want to get it running so I can ride....I've already wasted two days of prime riding weather. If I keep dicking around like this, I may never get it running.

So...to summarize. I'll try the paperclip thing - who wants to give me instructions on that? I pulled all the relays, and I have the diagram so I know which is which. Oh - I also tried the jumper cable to the starter today - no dice. I honestly think my battery is fine.

Again - thanks for all the input. I thought I'd be lucky to get 3 or 4 people responding to this.....

71243 said:

A few years back, I put risers on my R1150 as well. Same thing No start. Double checked my work....I had unplugged the clutch wire @ the switch inside the plastic cover...and did-not-know it. Just standing there it looked fine, but pulled back the cover and it was obvious.... Plugged it back together....all was well.,,,

Check that and everything involved in the riser install.

Click to expand...

This I can try.....except not sure what the clutch has to do with starting if the bike is in neutral.

From everything you say it would have to be the kill switch wiring. If the kill switch is OK you should get pump prime when you turn ignition on. Furthermore, you should get pump prime every time you turn the kill switch off and back on. Without starting the bike ignition on when you put it in first gear and back to neutral you should get pump prime.
I even believe first gear (or any gear), clutch engaged, side stand up you should get pump prime. That is before even getting into the starter circuit. And since the starter doesn't run either that should be the only possible scenario.

Put the wiring back together like it was before.
If you take starter cover of (one bolt, 4mm alan I think, but you have outside jump post so two bolts, the other one is T30 i think) and jump terminal 50, without disconnecting it (little black wire) to main positive terminal big 13mm nut right next to it, your jump post is attached to it. (paperclip, tweezers, needle nose pliers, you should get crank (regardless of anything else so be careful, if the bike is in gear ...off it goes , make sure it is in neutral for this test). This would prove that your battery and stater are OK. This only as a confidence building exercise since I would bet heavily against being battery or starter (very heavily). Let me know when you are there, you don't even have to put that tank back on for this one.
Keep us posted

cele0001 said:

From everything you say it would have to be the kill switch wiring. If the kill switch is OK you should get pump prime when you turn ignition on. Furthermore, you should get pump prime every time you turn the kill switch off and back on. Without starting the bike ignition on when you put it in first gear and back to neutral you should get pump prime.
I even believe first gear (or any gear), clutch engaged, side stand up you should get pump prime. That is before even getting into the starter circuit. And since the starter doesn't run either that should be the only possible scenario.

Put the wiring back together like it was before.
If you take starter cover of (one bolt, 4mm alan I think, but you have outside jump post so two bolts, the other one is T30 i think) and jump terminal 50, without disconnecting it (little black wire) to main positive terminal big 13mm nut right next to it, your jump post is attached to it. (paperclip, tweezers, needle nose pliers, you should get crank (regardless of anything else so be careful, if the bike is in gear ...off it goes , make sure it is in neutral for this test). This would prove that your battery and stater are OK. This only as a confidence building exercise since I would bet heavily against being battery or starter (very heavily). Let me know when you are there, you don't even have to put that tank back on for this one.
Keep us posted

Click to expand...

Ok - I followed your steps and the starter cranked and turned over, so that eliminates the starter and the battery as problems. Any suggestions on what next?

71243 said:

A few years back, I put risers on my R1150 as well. Same thing No start. Double checked my work....I had unplugged the clutch wire @ the switch inside the plastic cover...and did-not-know it. Just standing there it looked fine, but pulled back the cover and it was obvious.... Plugged it back together....all was well.,,,

Check that and everything involved in the riser install.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what switch you are referring to. Are you talking the switch you have to access underneath the clutch lever housing - the one that clicks when the clutch lever is pulled in? If so, I tried that and it didn't seem to be loose. Did you have to take apart the switch?

Chiming In

about diodes...

I have never seen any BMW schematic that shows any diode as a Zener - which is what would be required to "clamp" (or shunt) a voltage. (Maybe an older airhead regulator? Triumph & BSA used them with typical Lucas reliability.)
Once a voltage is high enough to turn a diode "On" (threshold voltage; anywhere from 0.2 to 0.7 volts in the "forward" direction), it is conducting until it burns out. If the voltage is high enough to cause conduction in the reverse direction, the diode is now probably damaged.

If an item (capacitor, inductor, whatever) is "charged" up to 12 volts, and then discharged, the potential discharge is twice the source voltage, or 24 volts. However, since the resistance of whatever is being protected or discharged into is typically low, the current will be extremely high for a short time. I have seen on one-shot storage scopes where the spike actually does go higher - but that is of extremely short duration, though still enough to cause damage to other solid-state electronics.

The starter relay is merely a remote-control switch, in that it permits a low-current circuit, and thereby smaller wiring & physical switches, to in turn energize a very high-current circuit. It is that high current that is then routed to the starter motor. The starter will draw over 100 amperes if anything causes it to bog down (just my W.A.G.; I'm certain I've seen the actual draw posted in here), and its internal copper wiring will have to live with that for the life of the unit.

ADDENDUM: There may be confusion as to just which diodes we are referring to here. Note that the "anti-kickback" diode is INSIDE the starter relay, connected in parallel with the coil (like in Mike's picture below), and is not shown on many schematics. Without that, yes the little primary coil (relay energizer) would put out a spike that could damage other electronics (the computer). The other diodes shown in Doug R's excellent renderings are "steering" diodes for the computer's "Shall I let this bike start?" logic. These have zero bearing on any voltage control or damping.

Starter should spin

bike in neutral. It will spark but not a lot

cele0001 said:

View attachment 44000

bike in neutral. It will spark but not a lot

Click to expand...

Yepper - that worked, the starter turned over.

jeff.ferguson said:

Yepper - that worked, the starter turned over.

Click to expand...

So now we know it is not the starter and not the battery.
And you got to wake yourself up a little

jeff.ferguson said:

Ok - I followed your steps and the starter cranked and turned over, so that eliminates the starter and the battery as problems. Any suggestions on what next?

Click to expand...

Now we are here.




Sorry for the picture. Maybe you can download and enlarge.

There are four wires in this connector I am assuming it is under the tank somewhere, follow the wiring.
This is the kill switch. If you find the connector jumper two terminals in the harness pin 9 jumpered to pin 2. That should give you your kill switch "delete"
Other people are welcome to comment if they have intimate knowledge about where this connector is.

Pauls,

While cele and Jeff are closing in on the problem, here is how a regular diode clamps reverse voltage on a relay coil.
It prevents spikes from damaging relay drive components.
My diagram shows a switch, and the diode is not necessary, but if the relay was driven with a transistor, the spikes would damage it.

This should help you locate and know what it looks like

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-99-03-1...ITCH-R1150R-R1150GS-ADV-R1150RS-/271369122244


I will give you about 15minutes to look and understand what we are trying to do. Other people please if you have easier way you are more than welcome.

Pauls1150 said:

about diodes...

I have never seen any BMW schematic that shows any diode as a Zener - which is what would be required to "clamp" (or shunt) a voltage. (Maybe an older airhead regulator? Triumph & BSA used them with typical Lucas reliability.)
Once a voltage is high enough to turn a diode "On" (threshold voltage; anywhere from 0.2 to 0.7 volts in the "forward" direction), it is conducting until it burns out. If the voltage is high enough to cause conduction in the reverse direction, the diode is now probably damaged.

If an item (capacitor, inductor, whatever) is "charged" up to 12 volts, and then discharged, the potential discharge is twice the source voltage, or 24 volts. However, since the resistance of whatever is being protected or discharged into is typically low, the current will be extremely high for a short time. I have seen on one-shot storage scopes where the spike actually does go higher - but that is of extremely short duration, though still enough to cause damage to other solid-state electronics.

The starter relay is merely a remote-control switch, in that it permits a low-current circuit, and thereby smaller wiring & physical switches, to in turn energize a very high-current circuit. It is that high current that is then routed to the starter motor. The starter will draw over 100 amperes if anything causes it to bog down (just my W.A.G.; I'm certain I've seen the actual draw posted in here), and its internal copper wiring will have to live with that for the life of the unit.

Click to expand...

It's not a zener, it is a blocking diode in the starter circuit
It is located in the fuse box underneath the fuses in a small white plastic package with 1/4" fastons on it.
Check out the schematic and you will see it. Its worth checking for function.

61 31 1 375 475 DIODE, NATURAL COLOR

I have to leave for a little. Family things

GSAddict said:

It's not a zener, it is a blocking diode in the starter circuit
It is located in the fuse box underneath the fuses in a small white plastic package with 1/4" fastons on it.
Check out the schematic and you will see it. Its worth checking for function.

61 31 1 375 475 DIODE, NATURAL COLOR

Click to expand...

This is also flyback or kickback diode designed to isolate solenoid kickback. It should be somewhere on the circuit 50 wire going to the solenoid (or in parallel with it). I think even with it disconnected the circuit will work just be "unprotected". But in this case we are not getting to it since the starter relay is not clicking.

motorradmike said:

Pauls,

While cele and Jeff are closing in on the problem, here is how a regular diode clamps reverse voltage on a relay coil.
It prevents spikes from damaging relay drive components.
My diagram shows a switch, and the diode is not necessary, but if the relay was driven with a transistor, the spikes would damage it.

Click to expand...

What Mike has drawn here always confused students back in electronics class. It looks backwards because the cathode is facing the "wrong" way for current to flow. In the industry we call them reverse voltage protection diodes or clamping diodes. When you energize a coil (like the one in the starter relay) a magnetic field is created and when you remove the voltage that energizes the coil a very large voltage spike often occurs as the field collapses. These voltages can be extremely high and will damage other components in the circuit. If allowed to flow back through the circuit bad things are going to happen to devices that will not tolerate these high voltages.

The diode in this case provides reverse voltage protection of the voltage spikes from the relay coil.