Stumped - r1150r won't start

[cele0001]

In the meantime look up kickback diode to get better understanding of the concept which is meant to protect electronics upstream of the inductive load and not the load itself. That is how you focus on solving the problem, by understanding it.

 

[roger 04 rt]

I went out to fire up the r1150r this afternoon, and hit the starter button - no click, click, click - nothing. I don't hear the fuel pump whine either. I tried jump starting it, still nothing. Lights, clock, horn, brakes and all other electric circuitry seems to work.

I replaced the handlebar risers yesterday, but didn't start the bike before or after until I tried today. Could I have worked a connection loose underneath somewhere when I had the bars off? I looked hard and couldn't find anything that looks as if it came disconnected, and I had the fuel tank off to charge the battery and replace the air filter.

I charged the battery all day - still nothing. I got concerned when jump starting it didn't work either.

Any hints? I'm capable of some level of maintenance myself, but anything that gets too detailed I'd rather leave to the professionals.

Thanks

I think when you put the bar risers on you stretched and broke a wire going to the Kill switch. We could walk you through a series of tests to find out what's broken. You will need a DVM at some point. Would you like to go that route?

I would guess you broke either a kill switch or start button wire.

 

[jeff.ferguson]

I think when you put the bar risers on you stretched and broke a wire going to the Kill switch. We could walk you through a series of tests to find out what's broken. You will need a DVM at some point. Would you like to go that route?

I would guess you broke either a kill switch or start button wire.

Thanks to everyone for all the insightful info. I think I'll go the route of checking the wires into the kill switch/starter button. I'm not thrilled with taking all that apart for fear of making matters worse, but what the heck, it doesn't start anyway! So if you have some steps to take, I'd sure appreciate it.

I'm thinking about taking off early today and coming home to work on it again. First step will be to thoroughly inspect all wires, and if necessary, figure out how to take apart the kill switch housing.

 

[jeff.ferguson]

What is the voltage of the battery?
What is the voltage of the battery under a load?

The answer will probably solve the problem.

Last year I had the same problem. Replaced the battery with a PC680. Solved the problem. Not uncommon to find a dead battery come Spring. Especially, if you didn't have a battery tender on it. A cold Winter can separate the plates. The result is a battery that has some energy, but not enough to power up the bike. You can try to recharge the battery until the cows come home, but you will have the same results you have now.

Another tip that the battery is close to reaching the end of it's life, is when the ABS alternating lights come on when you try to start the bike when it is cold. The PC680 runs at a higher voltage that the ABS system likes.

I'm wondering, was it the exact same problem? Did you turn on the ignition and hit the starter button and no fuel pump whir AND no starter clicking?

 

[jeff.ferguson]

The image speaks for itself. Check out Relay #1. BMW got relay "happy" with the oilhead, which isn't a bad thing.

I see you are new to the forum. Welcome to the forum. Do a search on ABS alternating lights. That way we don't get off on a tangent. The voltage issue of the ABS system has been discussed on this forum so many times.

Let's stick to solving the OP's problem, which most likely is the battery.

Thanks for the picture- wish I'd have had that yesterday when I was scratching my head over which fuse I should be looking for!!! I'll keep that for future reference. The bike doesn't have abs, so that's not an issue.

 

[MotorradMike]

I think you have to take a serious look at what was touched, or nearly touched when you were working on the bars.
Something happened right there.
You just have to find what it was.
dc

I think when you put the bar risers on you stretched and broke a wire going to the Kill switch. We could walk you through a series of tests to find out what's broken. You will need a DVM at some point. Would you like to go that route?

I would guess you broke either a kill switch or start button wire.

I'm with these guys.

Here's a simple test:
Put your finger on the yellow start relay(#1) while you press the starter button.
You will feel/hear it CLICK with each press of the starter.
If you don't, it means the starter button is not activating it and you've eliminated the battery and everything downstream of the relay.
Therefore the problem will be upstream of the relay, somewhere in the switches and interlocks

I suppose it's possible the relay coil has failed but the long odds of that all but rule it out.
As well, we always say "Look at the stuff you screwed around with first"!

 

[DougRaymond]

I went out to fire up the r1150r this afternoon, and hit the starter button - no click, click, click - nothing. I don't hear the fuel pump whine either. I tried jump starting it, still nothing. Lights, clock, horn, brakes and all other electric circuitry seems to work.

I replaced the handlebar risers yesterday,..

Your battery is fine, since your lights and horn work normally, and the lights don't even dim when you press the starter.
Your R1150R wiring should be similar to the R1150RT electrical diagram here:
http://www.mac-pac.org/tech/electrical-diagrams/

The Kill Switch wiring is the obvious culprit. The diagram shows that the Grn/Red wire from Kill Switch enables the Starter Relay, Motronic Relay and Fuel Pump Relay, at least two of which are not working.

The easiest test for this is to pull the Starter Relay, use a volt meter to look for a +12V response (at any pin, for simplicity) as you press the starter button. You will probably get no response, then you know that the Kill Switch or its wiring is the problem.

It's not the Starter Button or Starter Relay, since that would not be the cause of the Fuel Pump Relay not pulling in.

The mystery is the clock: normally if the Kill Switch or its wiring fails, the RID stays blank- no clock, no fuel level. I would expect these all to be blank. If the clock is truly working then that Grn/Red wire is getting to the Motronic Relay, which must be working OK (you could probe its socket too for +12V appearing when you turn the key on). Further, if the clock is truly working, then your Kill Switch is fine and the problem has to be a break in the Grn/Red wire coming from it.

The diode in the Starter Relay, I believe, is just to form an OR circuit, enabling the Starter Relay if either in neutral or clutch pulled in (R1150 bikes, with diode in the KickStand circuit, provide a third OR, over the previous R1100, allowing the bike to start or run with kickstand down as long as its in neutral.)

 

[23217]

It really depends upon how bad the battery is. Sometimes you cannot get anything to work. Other times some items work. But, I would test the battery voltage before replacing it.

Another important thing to remember is if the bike doesn't work after working on it, 9 out of 10 times, it was something you did. Since you have not started it since last Fall, the wild card would be the battery. You could also pull the starter relay and do a quick jumper (need a thick wire) across the hot lead. Plug one side in and just tap the other hot lead connector. I know...I just told you not to do this. But, if you are desperate, a quick tap would answer the question. Doing this would bypass the diode. If the starter starts to turn the engine, then you need to look at the kill switch, ignition switch, clutch switch, and safety switches. Here is a diagram that nicely shows the switches in series with the starter. Personally, I would check the battery voltage first.

Once you know that the battery is producing 12 volts, you can check the switches. If you have 12+ volts flowing up to the ignition switch, then you can see if you get 12+ volts at the starter relay trigger wire (from the starter button) while pushing the start button. Put a volt meter across the starter relay connectors #85 and #86 while pushing the starter button. If you get 0 volts then one of the switches is off, unplugged, or bad. After pulling the starter relay, look at the bottom for the Numbers. Then insert the voltmeter into the receptors for #85 and #86.

So, check the voltage of the battery for ~12 volts. If 12v, then check the voltage at the starter relay. If no voltage, then one of the switches is not tripped to on. If you get voltage, then the starter relay is bad or the starter has a problem. But, I think you said that you get a red indicator, so most likely the starter relay is good.

Also, did you find the BMW service manual on-line? It is a 22mb pdf. The fuse/relay box diagram is on page 61.8. Also in the manual are how the wiring and connectors are routed through the bike. This would be valuable in trying to find out if a connector became unplugged while putting on the risers. Assuming that is what happen. Those wire route diagrams are on pages 61.9 to 61.36.

This should help you determine where the problem is. If you don't have a volt/ohm meter, you should be able to pick one up cheaply. I think Walmart even has them. A cheap analog one will work fine. You don't need an expensive Flute digital multimeter for this project.

 

[roger 04 rt]

Thanks to everyone for all the insightful info. I think I'll go the route of checking the wires into the kill switch/starter button. I'm not thrilled with taking all that apart for fear of making matters worse, but what the heck, it doesn't start anyway! So if you have some steps to take, I'd sure appreciate it.

I'm thinking about taking off early today and coming home to work on it again. First step will be to thoroughly inspect all wires, and if necessary, figure out how to take apart the kill switch housing.

Jeff,
Grab a DVM and follow Doug Raymond's advice. I wouldn't take anything apart until you've measured the fuel pump and starter +12V. Measure the battery voltage too.

The harness is wired to the frame just below the key. There are many reports of wires breaking there. When you added the risers you may have stressed that point. That is more likely where the break is, not in the switch area.
RB

 

[pauls1150]

Referencing back to my post #2 - The connector is just forward of the big bolt that anchors the tank. The MAX fiches shows it as 3 conductors, but this is wrong, it's 4. It comes apart by firmly squeezing the long side of the spring clip and then pulling the plastic halves apart (gentle but firm persuasion). It may also have a "claw" or an engaging plastic finger on the side that needs to be gently pried up or "reverse pressed" to release it (depending on the connector style). I've seen a couple of cases of non-starting where this was not fully seated back together. Make sure the pins (both sides, male & female) are clean and straight; a little WD or a little dielectric grease is good here.

+2 on Doug's, Roger's, Ray's, and Cele's advice - the cheapest DVM around is from Harbor Freight (and it's sometimes free if you have a coupon!); it may look a bit intimidating, but it's easy to figure out, especially when all you need is volts and ohms.

Tangent: Cele is right here too; the diode "across" the relay is only there to prevent what is called "Inductive Kickback" from the relay coil - when voltage is removed from it, like an ignition coil, the stored charge needs a place to go. And, this charge will have the reverse polarity of the "applied" charge. The starter probably wouldn't be damaged by this, but the computer sure would be. The "other" diode is part of the "logic Or" starting circuitry which Roger has already commented on.

 

[cele0001]

What I would recommend is holding the starter button engaged (ignition on, bike in neutral on the center stand) while you are rotating the handlebars through the range of motion and if possible moving the wires that you see are running down the head stock (you will see which ones because they will move also) If you can get it to crank this way you know it is wiring and not the switches, which I believe is what everybody is betting on at this point, under the assumption you are not leaving part of the story out.

EDIT: Even if you cant get it to crank it could still be the wiring but it is just to far gone to make even intermittent connection. (but in this case test would be inconclusive)

 

[jeff.ferguson]

Albeit regretfully, I am tapping out and will take it to the dealer for repair. I spent the past two hours taking apart the kill switch/starter hosing and I couldn't see any broken wires. I got in as far as I could - going in any further, like to the wiring under the ignition, probably exceeds my skill and patience. Now, without having a pickup, I have to figure out how to get it to the dealer.

Don't suppose anyone in Omaha reading this thread has a pickup or trailer and would like to hook a brother up?!?! I'll buy beer, whiskey, or scotch (what the hell, maybe all three)! Or, if you're not into that, a tankful of gas.

Thanks to everyone on this thread - I really do appreciate all the good advice. If nothing else, I learned how to remove the gas tank and access the battery and air filter.

 

[Omega Man]

Good luck. When you figure it out, please let us know.
OM

 

[cele0001]

I cant believe

you are giving up. I think this would be a blow to everybody that is involved. Generally no crank no start conditions are among the easier to diagnose and the most satisfying to repair (because of the obvious results). I am pretty sure we can get it if you don't give up. Its always darkest before the dawn......
Take a break regroup and lets start fresh. Not only it will be more satisfying to you to get it yourself, but lessons learned here apply to just about any starting circuit on any machine. But it is your call. I would rather spend energy on troubleshooting then loading and unloading the bike (I hate pushing heavy things up inclines).

 

[23217]

Tangent: Cele is right here too; the diode "across" the relay is only there to prevent what is called "Inductive Kickback" from the relay coil - when voltage is removed from it, like an ignition coil, the stored charge needs a place to go. And, this charge will have the reverse polarity of the "applied" charge. The starter probably wouldn't be damaged by this, but the computer sure would be. The "other" diode is part of the "logic Or" starting circuitry which Roger has already commented on.

I don't want to get off on a tangent. But, the PRIMARY purpose of the diode is to prevent voltage spikes (clamping). From the reverse polarity surge, you can have the voltage jump up over 200 volts. There are two ways to use the diode. The first is to run it in parallel. The second way, is to run it in a loop. BMW used option #2. This allowed them to use it for the neutral and gen indicators. The second way also reduces the voltage spike. Don't be confused by the indicator lights and the non-switchable pole.

There are two reason to remove the voltage spike. The first is to protect the computer from a large voltage spike. The second is to allow the starter manufacture to use a lower cost copper wire. The maximum voltage level will be determined by the copper alloy used in the manufacture of the wire. That is why you see starter relays on almost all vehicles today. Older vehicles starters could handle the higher voltage because of the better and more expensive copper alloy used. Maybe you haven't noticed, but copper has become very expensive. As for the computer, I am sure they have MOV's and diodes inside to protect it from other outside voltage spikes like static and voltage fluctuation within the electrical system.

Otherwise, BMW could have used a cheaper setup that would have done the same thing.

 

[DougRaymond]

you are giving up. I think this would be a blow to everybody that is involved. Generally no crank no start conditions are among the easier to diagnose and the most satisfying to repair..

+1 on don't quit now.

Surely you will at least check your Starter Relay? Very easy, no dis-assembly.
You can test it with a finger, or a 2-minute check with Voltmeter at the socket. Or any one of us can tell you how to bypass it with a paperclip to make your engine crank, with or without your Kill Switch.

 

[bikerfish1100]

........ I don't think it can be jumped from less than a running vehicle.
OM

somebody help me out here. i have heard that jumping our bikes from a running vehicle is a fabulous way to fry some portion of the electronics- FI system, Motronic, etc.). i've jumped bikes from cars, not running, on bikes with weak batteries and never had a problem.

i wanted to get this out there and confirmed in one direction or another- is it safe, or is it ill-advised, to jump from a running vehicle?

fwiw- my votes for the OP's starting problem are either: 1) a wire was pulled out of the ignition switch cluster or the kill switch when moving the bars about, or 2) OP disconnected the fuel pump connector when pulling the tank off, and failed to reconnect it upon reassembly.

 

[cele0001]

somebody help me out here. i have heard that jumping our bikes from a running vehicle is a fabulous way to fry some portion of the electronics- FI system, Motronic, etc.). i've jumped bikes from cars, not running, on bikes with weak batteries and never had a problem.

i wanted to get this out there and confirmed in one direction or another- is it safe, or is it ill-advised, to jump from a running vehicle?

Common misconceptions that are circling the web presented by half informed people is that car jumpstarting (because it it bigger) will damage the bike (because it is smaller). Running voltage of any 12 V system alternator is ~14.4V. You could jump your lawnmower with an aircraft carrier (trying to be visual) as long as they are running 12V system. Actually you are more likely to damage the donor vehicle if the charging system is unable to sustain the additional load of (potentially) shorted battery. However, after jump start, dead battery can potentially damage the alternator, again due to the additional load put on it. Hence it is not recommended to jump a vehicle that is completely dead, but I have also done it many times without damage. I would try to restrict the load by removing light fuses to relieve the system of unneeded loads until the battery is charged.

 

[cele0001]

I don't want to get off on a tangent. But, the PRIMARY purpose of the diode is to prevent voltage spikes (clamping). From the reverse polarity surge, you can have the voltage jump up over 200 volts. There are two ways to use the diode. The first is to run it in parallel. The second way, is to run it in a loop. BMW used option #2. This allowed them to use it for the neutral and gen indicators. The second way also reduces the voltage spike. Don't be confused by the indicator lights and the non-switchable pole.

There are two reason to remove the voltage spike. The first is to protect the computer from a large voltage spike. The second is to allow the starter manufacture to use a lower cost copper wire. The maximum voltage level will be determined by the copper alloy used in the manufacture of the wire. That is why you see starter relays on almost all vehicles today. Older vehicles starters could handle the higher voltage because of the better and more expensive copper alloy used. Maybe you haven't noticed, but copper has become very expensive. As for the computer, I am sure they have MOV's and diodes inside to protect it from other outside voltage spikes like static and voltage fluctuation within the electrical system.

Otherwise, BMW could have used a cheaper setup that would have done the same thing.

You are digging a very deep hole my friend, further devaluing any input that you might have in this matter. I would also appreciate other people chiming in so it doesn't look like a personal problem.

 

[Omega Man]

somebody help me out here. i have heard that jumping our bikes from a running vehicle is a fabulous way to fry some portion of the electronics- FI system, Motronic, etc.). i've jumped bikes from cars, not running, on bikes with weak batteries and never had a problem.

i wanted to get this out there and confirmed in one direction or another- is it safe, or is it ill-advised, to jump from a running vehicle?

I've found 12V to be 12V and the only real problem is doing the jump with some sort of bad connections.

Common misconceptions that are circling the web presented by half informed people is that car jumpstarting (because it it bigger) will damage the bike (because it is smaller). Running voltage of any 12 V system alternator is ~14.4V. You could jump your lawnmower with an aircraft carrier (trying to be visual) as long as they are running 12V system. Actually you are more likely to damage the donor vehicle if the charging system is unable to sustain the additional load of (potentially) shorted battery. However, after jump start, dead battery can potentially damage the alternator, again due to the additional load put on it. Hence it is not recommended to jump a vehicle that is completely dead, but I have also done it many times without damage. I would try to restrict the load by removing light fuses to relieve the system of unneeded loads until the battery is charged.

Yes
OM