Official BMW Customer Care Response Re: DVD Repair Manual Availability

[adamchandler]

I just wanted to thank John Gamel and Wes Fleming for their work on this subject on behalf of all MOA members.

 

[dravnx]

$30 per day is damn prohibitive to me. I read my tech manuals, multiple times, before I perform a task. I also read the manuals to gain familiarity with the machine.

 

[ragtoplvr]

I realize the manual is their intellectual property. If they would commit to putting service on line in PDF the bike is 7 years old, I would help to raise the value of them, and allow them to sell more parts. A higher used value would allow more trade in's and help sell new bikes. I suspect the dealers do very little maintenance on bikes of that age anyway but the good will is worth a lot.

Rod

 

[taran1900]

I've been reading the various posts on the MOA and other Forums regarding the lack of DVD manuals from BMW dealers, and the apparent offering of an expensive service access to BMW motorcycle service directions under the BMW TIS 2.0 System. I wrote via email to what appeared to be an informational address for TIS (Technical Information Service), and also to BMW MOA Customer Service. Today, I received a response from BMW Customer Care, but as yet have heard nothing from the TIS.

Here is the inquiry which I emailed yesterday:

"Greetings - My name is John Gamel and I am the "Consumer Liaison" for the BMW Motorcycle Owners of America. We're a club of about 30,000 members and my role as a volunteer is to assist members with their BMW and other motorcycles. I have had some useful communication with Mark Pechko of BMW NA Customer Service, and have Ccd him on this email.

The reason I'm writing is because there is substantial interest on the part of BMW motorcycle owners in the apparent transition from maintenance/repair manuals in DVD form to the BMW TIS system. I was looking through the online PDF from 2019 titled TIS 2.0. As you may know, many BMW motorcycle owners enjoy maintaining, upgrading, and repairing their BMW motorcycles themselves. When the DVDs and other after-market manuals were available, this facilitated that process. For many owners who are not near a BMW Motorrad dealer, this work kept their motorcycles in excellent condition. With the advent of TIS and the disappearance of the DVD manuals from the parts system, many members are frustrated in their desire to do accurate work on their bikes.

I'm hoping you might provide me some information about the TIS system. I think it would be useful to know if BMW NA sees it as a resource for individual owners of motorcycles to use, and if so, the best ways to access the system. In reading some of the TIS 2.0 PDF I can see that the types of computers and software on which the TIS can be viewed and accessed are specified. In addition to that, would an individual owner be advised to have certain software or hardware to access information that their motorcycle is storing, and needed for repair or maintenance?

Finally, my view is that an individual owner who needed the resources of the TIS could easily afford the $30 purchase cost of a day's usage of the TIS. I presume that this would give one-time access to a substantial amount of information about the motorcycle he/she owns. Perhaps access once or twice a year would be enough. If the intent of the TIS is to have ready access, and would not be suitable for occasional review by an owner, it would be useful to know that.

Thank you for reading my email. I am lucky to have an excellent BMW dealer "Quaker City Motor Sports" close by. As a result, I find that I don't have to subject my R1200RT to my inept mechanical abilities.

Thanks again - John Gamel / BMW Motorcycle Owners of America Consumer Liaison"

I sent a copy of my email to MOA President Reece Mullins, who wrote also as a follow-on to my email.

Today, I heard from BMW Motorrad Executive Customer Care:

Thank you both for writing. BMW Motorrad has discontinued the resale of the DVD repair manuals. I have no further information at this time but we are aware of this concern.

Kind Regards,
Mark

----------------
BMW Group
Mark Pechko
Executive Customer Care, Motorrad
Customer Relations and Services


Perhaps I will receive a response from someone at TIS and if so, I'll post that response as part of this thread.

I know there is intense interest in this subject both here and on other forums. I have had some interchange with forum member lkchris regarding this. Considering that BMW NA has now ended distribution/sale of the DVDs which many members found useful, perhaps it would be possible for the company to find another path to help a large number of BMW motorcycle owners.

I look forward to your comments...

The only true recourse we have is where we spend our money. The whole industry would love to not provide the data needed to maintain our own vehicles. Really, the best option in the future is to buy something that needs less maintenance and rarely breaks. There is a word for that in motorcycling. Honda.

 

[pglaves]

The only true recourse we have is where we spend our money. The whole industry would love to not provide the data needed to maintain our own vehicles. Really, the best option in the future is to buy something that needs less maintenance and rarely breaks. There is a word for that in motorcycling. Honda.

Does Honda publish repair manual information in printed or DVD format??

 

[Omega Man]

John’s post is the professional way to negotiate a situation like this.

As far as the pirated information comment, I completely agree and I think I mentioned it earlier.

Just for my own information, I have been checking other bikes, when I can remember the other brands model numbers, and it seems that the other brands are supporting repair information.

OM

From the first page.

Does Honda publish repair manual information in printed or DVD format??

OM

 

[oldcamper]

Does Honda publish repair manual information in printed or DVD format??

It appears the factory repair manual for a 2021 Goldwing is available on dvd for $50.
Kawasaki has already released a 2022 KLR650 manual, and Suzuki has one available for a 2020 V-Strom.

I think BMW would rather market to a different demographic, though. The old “if you have to ask what it costs, you probably can’t afford it” consumer group comes to mind. Regardless, routine maintenance on most new bikes, even BMWs, can probably be accomplished well enough by the average DIY’er without benefit of the official factory manual. The internet and special interest groups will provide most of the “missing” information.

 

[rangerreece]

The internet and special interest groups will provide most of the “missing” information.

We are that special interest group, and there will be a free flow and dissemination of useful and accurate information regarding BMW motorcycles. Why would the next fifty years be different?

 

[rangerreece]

And for the record, I have no clue why it quoted Ikraus instead of Old Camper.

 

[98lee]

We are that special interest group, and there will be a free flow and dissemination of useful and accurate information regarding BMW motorcycles. Why would the next fifty years be different?

But WE (the special interest group) had always originally got our useful and accurate information from the factory or aftermarket shop manuals. When someone requests a torque spec., a solution to a wiring issue, or something that requires more than just memory, we have always been able to refer to our shop manuals to give members accurate information.

And memory fades with time.

 

[66789]

Perhaps a letter writing campaign is in order--a polite, but firm letter writing campaign.

 

[jandhumphreyme]

My .02 for what is worth.

I believe the club needs to research and throw support behind the "Right to Repair" movement. Owners need to protect the right to repair their own property or you will loose it. This means BMW needs to provide repair data to owners of its products, and be allowed to purchase the specialty tools required for their maintenance. Either DVD's, printed manuals, or free access to registered owners on a website, there is no excuse why this cannot be done the data has already been generated for publication in their online source so putting this on a DVD is only of minor expense as history has proven.

Why should they be able to force us to only go to only their dealer repair shops? New dealerships some of which are good, many are not, read this forum and you will find numerous examples of the latter. These are motorcycles, not space ships and even if they were, with the repair manual in hand any person with an ability to read and a working frontal lobe can perform any of the functions in the manual. If you don't' believe me, go to a dealership and speak with some of the mechanics they are normal people just like you and me not brain surgeons, if that's not convincing, read some of the thousands of posts in this very forum filled with stories of tech's who $ucked up simple repair procedures. Manufacturers want to convince you you're not smart enough to fix a dammed motorcycle or anything for that matter, if you are and recognize it good on you, just remember you do not speak for me!

Independent shops will go out of business without access to this data forcing consumers with fewer choices and higher costs. Independent shops provide affordable alternatives to repairs often providing services at discounts of 30 to 50 percent. Independent shops also allow for more choice's often dealerships are located in only larger metropolitan area forcing rural owners large expenses transporting their bikes is some instances hundreds of miles, thus driving up repair cost, while independent shops often service multiple marques and share more numerous locations.

Separation of you from the repair data to your private property is nothing but a way to force you into a single cradle to grave supply chain and allow dealerships to wring more profit from you to support a dwindling dealer network who cannot survive on motorcycle and trinket sales alone.

 

[Omega Man]

It appears that there will be repair information available…..which covers the “right to repair” aspect. BMW seems to be limiting the availability by making it cost prohibitive.
Anyone remember the “dust-up” over the roundel use by clubs?……
Seems like they just want it their way.
OM

 

[jconway607]

The only true recourse we have is where we spend our money. The whole industry would love to not provide the data needed to maintain our own vehicles. Really, the best option in the future is to buy something that needs less maintenance and rarely breaks. There is a word for that in motorcycling. Honda.

I read the, what I would consider a completely arrogant and condescending response to Wes Fleming's query to BMW in the MOA news. I had to laugh. BMW is really hitting it's stride with it's "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it." attitude towards us, the people who pay big bucks to buy and maintain their elite machines. Though I would agree with one thing BMW says. They've got their bikes to the point of complexity that just about no one will be able to work on them. I fully expect in the not too distant future even the dealers will say to people," We can't afford the equipment, or the training to fix this bike. We now have to ship them to one of five BMW service centers for repairs." BMW has gone from producing some of the easiest and enjoyable motorcycles to ride and work on, to maintenance and repair nightmares. Nice work.

I've had quite a few BMWs from airheads, to K bikes, to oilheads. I'd go broke dragging them into a dealership every time they needed work done. As was mentioned, I need to review the manual, (sometimes a couple of them) to make sure I get it right. $30 a crack? That could add up.

BMW makes nice bikes. But they seem to be only for the well off, who don't blink at a $1500 repair bill. My next motorcycle will unquestionably be from a Japanese manufacturer, preferably Honda. They appear to be very well made, don't require much maintenance, and if they do, parts don't cost an arm and a leg. Oh, yes, and I gather they are more than willing to sell me a manual to do my own work.

 

[cap]

BMW ... "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it." attitude ...

I suspect this is part of the reason why BMW thinks they can pull this off without hurting their sales. The first owners of BMW motorcycles are already willing to pay a premium price. With a 3-year warranty, most work during those 3 years gets done by dealers anyway.

I think the risk for BMW is that it is the 2nd and subsequent owners who are more likely to want to perform their own maintenance. And if repair and maintenance manuals are unavailable, the secondary market for BMW motorcycles will begin to factor the difficulty of maintenance in to the price. The long-term consequence for BMW will be a decline in resale value, which will reflect poorly on the brand.

A good example is Ducati. The cost of adjusting desmodromic valves is prohibitive. As a result, there are a lot of used Ducati motos for sale at attractive prices as they approach the service interval for valves. We might see the same thing happen to BMWs needing basic maintenance.

 

[88bmwjeff]

I thought some of you might find this amusing (note the sarcasm here).

I purchased the BMW frame guards for my R1200 GS. They came in a retail package, yet there's no instructions. It says you can download them, but it doesn't really say where. They do indicate that one could consult the repair DVD, but those are no longer available for purchase. Why sell them in a retail package if you're not going to provide instruction?

FYI, I have started a thread in the Wethead section to see if anyone has installed them and/or access to instructions. Luckily, installing them does seem somewhat self-explanatory.

 

[lkraus]

Not sure these are correct, just one of the first results from a Google search for "BMW frame guard manual"

https://www.revzilla.com/assets/0002/9143/Install_frame_guard.pdf

 

[88bmwjeff]

Not sure these are correct, just one of the first results from a Google search for "BMW frame guard manual"

https://www.revzilla.com/assets/0002/9143/Install_frame_guard.pdf

Thanks, that looks correct.

 

[mtbenson]

I thought some of you might find this amusing (note the sarcasm here).

I purchased the BMW frame guards for my R1200 GS. They came in a retail package, yet there's no instructions. It says you can download them, but it doesn't really say where. They do indicate that one could consult the repair DVD, but those are no longer available for purchase. Why sell them in a retail package if you're not going to provide instruction?

FYI, I have started a thread in the Wethead section to see if anyone has installed them and/or access to instructions. Luckily, installing them does seem somewhat self-explanatory.

I had a similar experience with the BMW engine guards for my F850GS. Studying the online parts fiche wasn't much help. I finally located an installation video for the Touratech version that appeared to use the same mounting points as the BMW guards. Watched the video three times, and the parts went on without much drama.

 

[lee]

Not sure these are correct, just one of the first results from a Google search for "BMW frame guard manual"

https://www.revzilla.com/assets/0002/9143/Install_frame_guard.pdf

Five pages of instructions for a part held on by three straps