09RT still a sporadic starter

[rtcmack]

A continuation of the problem I had last fall just when I was putting the RT away for the season. This morning I installed a brand new fully charged Yuasa battery, magically thinking the old girl would fire right up....wrong! Tried a few times, fiddled with the side stand, made sure I was in N and the clutch pulled in but still nothing doing.

I removed all the body work on the left side of the bike to check connections on side stand, the starter, and fuel pump. Everything looked fine although I did find an extra 2 wire connector coming from the colllected wires going to the fuel pump. Judging from the corrosion on the connector, it had not been connected to anything for a while. Here's an image:


Once the body work was off and I had jiggled all the connections I tried to start it again. Well, it started, and not only once but several times in a row. Hmm, the old take it apart and put it together again trick had worked, or at least I thought. Once the body work was back on I tried it again and surprise, surprise, it didn't start. Off with the body work again...and this time the magic didn't work(even after jiggling) and the bike wouldn't start.

When I turn on the ignition there is the red triangle briefly, then the orange triangle, briefly, and when I push the ignition button it's a roll of the dice whether the bike will turn over. I forgot to mention earlier the starter motor doesn't turn over at all on the failed starts. The Service message also comes up cause the 24000 mile service had been done(9000 miles ago) but not by the official BMW folks so the ECU never got the message. And, as i mentioned earlier post on a different thread, the fuel pump was replaced on a recall in 2016 when I got the bike.

Any suggestions???

 

[henzilla]

Is that triangle module silver or black anodized?

If it's silver, long overdue to replace it, FPC module the item. It controls the fuel pump and will fail if corroded anywhere close to that picture.There is a connector below the FPC module.

 

[rtcmack]

Not quite sure what you mean by the triangle module. If you're referring to the plate like looking thing at the top of the image with a fuel line coming out of it, it's black anodized. I'll have a closer look at the connectors on the fuel pump in the morning.

 

[rtcmack]

Not quite sure what you mean by the triangle module. If you're referring to the plate like looking thing at the top of the image with a fuel line coming out of it, it's black anodized. I'll have a closer look at the connectors on the fuel pump in the morning.

I was looking at the wrong part, the FPC is indeed the oxidized looking alloy module. If the FPC is "malfunctioning" would that prevent the motor from even turning over?

Colin[/I]

 

[henzilla]

I was looking at the wrong part, the FPC is indeed the oxidized looking alloy module. If the FPC is "malfunctioning" would that prevent the motor from even turning over?

Colin[/I]

It should still turn over.If you have ear to tank, the pump typically runs for a second when key turned on. A failing FPC prevents the pump running.

I reread your post and noticed the non crank issue. Are the dash lights coming on?
Another thought is did you clean the battery terminals when installing new battery? A light corrosion will sometimes prevent a good connection and cause a head scratcher.

 

[rtcmack]

A continuation of the problem I had last fall just when I was putting the RT away for the season. This morning I installed a brand new fully charged Yuasa battery, magically thinking the old girl would fire right up....wrong! Tried a few times, fiddled with the side stand, made sure I was in N and the clutch pulled in but still nothing doing.

I removed all the body work on the left side of the bike to check connections on side stand, the starter, and fuel pump. Everything looked fine although I did find an extra 2 wire connector coming from the colllected wires going to the fuel pump. Judging from the corrosion on the connector, it had not been connected to anything for a while. Here's an image:
View attachment 67093

Once the body work was off and I had jiggled all the connections I tried to start it again. Well, it started, and not only once but several times in a row. Hmm, the old take it apart and put it together again trick had worked, or at least I thought. Once the body work was back on I tried it again and surprise, surprise, it didn't start. Off with the body work again...and this time the magic didn't work(even after jiggling) and the bike wouldn't start.

When I turn on the ignition there is the red triangle briefly, then the orange triangle, briefly, and when I push the ignition button it's a roll of the dice whether the bike will turn over. I forgot to mention earlier the starter motor doesn't turn over at all on the failed starts. The Service message also comes up cause the 24000 mile service had been done(9000 miles ago) but not by the official BMW folks so the ECU never got the message. And, as i mentioned earlier post on a different thread, the fuel pump was replaced on a recall in 2016 when I got the bike.

Any suggestions???

As of right now there is no ignition and the starter does not turn over. The dash lights up and goes through the Red warning and Orange warning triangles routine then the screen settles down to the everyday display. Push starter and nothing happens.

Colin

 

[rtcmack]

Just checked on the current cost of the FPC from Max BMW-$232.54US!

 

[rtcmack]

a comedy of errors

It should still turn over.If you have ear to tank, the pump typically runs for a second when key turned on. A failing FPC prevents the pump running.

I reread your post and noticed the non crank issue. Are the dash lights coming on?
Another thought is did you clean the battery terminals when installing new battery? A light corrosion will sometimes prevent a good connection and cause a head scratcher.

Sigh, I just went out to where the bike is stored(neighbour's dimly lit garage)with a headlamp and sure enough, the FPC is indeed the anodized black one and the fuel pump does indeed come on for a moment when I switch on ignition. Bike started on first push of ignition button and I let it run for about 3 minutes. Shut it down then tried a restart-nothing doing! I didn't move either the sidestand or the clutch lever between the first successful start and second unsuccessful start. Oh, and the bike is on the centrestand. On the unsuccessful start the bike went through the same dash display as on the successful start.

The nearest official BMW dealer is about 340km and a trailer ride away in Kelowna so I would really like to try and solve this non-starting issue without having to drag the bike there!

While I was checking out the FPC I also put a voltmeter on the stray pigtail with the unused connector. It read 14.1V and looks like a factory wired in bypass for the FPC. I did not pull the FPC to look at the connector to the fuel pump but from the images I've seen looks like the other half of the connector to the actual fuel pump.

TIA
Colin

 

[lkraus]

It read 14.1V and looks like a factory wired in bypass for the FPC. I did not pull the FPC to look at the connector to the fuel pump but from the images I've seen looks like the other half of the connector to the actual fuel pump.
Colin

In eight years of following the various RT forums I've never heard anyone suggest that BMW plans for failure.

I also have an unused connector in that position, but I've always assumed it is for the optional audio system controls, which I do not have.

 

[rtcmack]

In eight years of following the various RT forums I've never heard anyone suggest that BMW plans for failure.

I also have an unused connector in that position, but I've always assumed it is for the optional audio system controls, which I do not have.

Fair enough, just curious what it's purpose might have been.

Colin

 

[drneo66]

In eight years of following the various RT forums I've never heard anyone suggest that BMW plans for failure.

I also have an unused connector in that position, but I've always assumed it is for the optional audio system controls, which I do not have.

That black "extra" connector is actually for a BMW/Hella/Powerlet-style power outlet. On mine, it mounts (for lack of better words) at the "pointy part" of the fairing - right in front of your left knee.


FYI - BurnsMoto makes a fuel pump bypass harness that you can use to double check the FPC, but I think we've moved on to another problem.

I'd feel like your next option is to look at the starter motor, are you getting power to that?

 

[lkraus]

I pulled that panel because I did not trust my memory. The only two-conductor connector (brown and red/green wires) I have in that area is for the accessory power outlet, which is unplugged when removing that panel. My connector has the release tabs on the narrow edges, while the connector in your picture seems to have them on the wide sides. Might have been a design change after '06 as the edges are difficult to reach and squeeze.

The unused plug I was thinking of for the audio controls actually has seven wires. In '06 this was part of the "audio prep" option - I'm not sure that was still available in '09.

 

[pglaves]

OK the bike started. Ran a few minutes. Shut it off. It won't restart. Nothing was wiggled, pulled or pushed. EXCEPT the ignition (key) switch. That is where I would start looking.

 

[rtcmack]

The latest thing I've checked is the sidestand switch. I removed it from the bike and took it apart to see if there was any grit or unwanted materials inside. It's obviously stayed clean in there and it was well loaded with dielectric grease so doesn't seem to be the problem. And the bike is once again in not wanting to turn over mode. Th other thing I forgot to mention was that last fall I also swapped out the starter relay thinking that might have been the problem. Starting to run out of options and will welcome most suggestions!

 

[rtcmack]

OK the bike started. Ran a few minutes. Shut it off. It won't restart. Nothing was wiggled, pulled or pushed. EXCEPT the ignition (key) switch. That is where I would start looking.

Just reading a thread about ignition switches, so I think you're right. Run out of time today but will investigate that tomorrow. Am charging the battery again cause ignition has been off and on a bunch including a few lucky starts!

 

[98lee]

You need to TROUBLESHOOT the problem systematically.

Bike does not crank- what cranks the bike- the starter-what causes the starter to run- electricity- does the starter terminal get 12volts when the starter button is pushed?-

Yes?- faulty starter, clean internals or replace.

No?- check voltages at starter relay to determine whether problem is before, after, or at the starter relay, see if control voltages to relay are correct.

If no control voltage to relay- probably dirty contacts in starter button or ignition switch.


Randomly guessing can be very time consuming and frustrating.

 

[beemerchuck]

You need to TROUBLESHOOT the problem systematically.

Bike does not crank- what cranks the bike- the starter-what causes the starter to run- electricity- does the starter terminal get 12volts when the starter button is pushed?-

Yes?- faulty starter, clean internals or replace.

No?- check voltages at starter relay to determine whether problem is before, after, or at the starter relay, see if control voltages to relay are correct.

If no control voltage to relay- probably dirty contacts in starter button or ignition switch.


Randomly guessing can be very time consuming and frustrating.

Lee is absolutely correct on this. Simple test is pull the lead from the solenoid on top off the starter. Connect a meter or test light and see if you have 12 volts at that wire. If so it is a starter or solenoid fault. If no power then start tracing back thru the relay and stater switch. I have seen 3 r1200’s with bad solenoids or a Snagged brush lead.

Chuck S

 

[rtcmack]

Hope its really this simple

OK the bike started. Ran a few minutes. Shut it off. It won't restart. Nothing was wiggled, pulled or pushed. EXCEPT the ignition (key) switch. That is where I would start looking.

Last night i realized I've always used the same key through all this start/non-start fiasco. I retrieved the backup key and took it with the questionable key out to the bike. Questionable key won't start bike, backup key does. Repeat with same results...looks like I need to get the corrupted key reprogrammed.

I agree about being logical about checking things in the right order and had checked all connections between battery and starter and had even replaced the starter relay. The good thing about this whole episode is I learned a whole lot more about my RT!

Thanks for everyone's advice, hopefully the old girl continues to start when asked!

 

[temesvar]

I didn't notice if you have removed the FPC from it's location. Even if you have the
newer unit, water can still get inside and corrode the connectors. It takes only a
a few minutes to remove them two screws. From the picture the whole area looks
like it has frequently been flooded. Good luck resolving your problem!

 

[rtcmack]

problem finally solved

Ended up trailering bike to dealer in Kelowna when I had to take another bike in for service. After plugging into computer looking for error codes the only thing they figured it might be was the antenna ring which they ordered and instralled. Well, problem was still there but turns out the bike started when handlebars pointed left but not when centred or to the right. Sounds like a broken wire and it was, about 8" from the ignition button. Mechanic said it looked like the harness had been zip tied incorrectly somehow crimping the wire. Sidestand switch was also funky so I've replaced with one from ebay($26US) rather than new(about$270CDN!)that works just fine. As usual for me, the actual problem was simple but solving it wasn't!

Thanks for all the advice along the way.