bikerfish1100
New member
ding ding ding ding ding!!!! Folks, we have a winner!!
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Headlight Modulator vs. Driving Lights
- Thread starter chilibowlfan
- Start date
ding ding ding ding ding!!!! Folks, we have a winner!!
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
The point that I, and a few others, have been trying to make is that when deciding which lights "you think will work the best for you" you need to consider both the potential benefits and the potential detriments, and then balance them to make the best decision on OVERALL safety improvement. Apparently, the idea of considering the potential adverse reaction of other motorists to one's actions is just an anathema to some people.
tommcgee
Unfunded content provider
Apparently, the idea of considering the potential adverse reaction of other motorists to one's actions is just an anathema to some people.
All I care about is being seen. How someone else feels about seeing me is way down on my list of concerns.
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
So, you want to be seen, presumably to increase your safety/lower your risk, but you don't feel it is necessary to consider the possibility that the reactions of other motorists may actually reduce your safety.
M
MrGrocer
Guest
And now for a useless product plug:
I'm not much for modulators; it seems a little too complicated for me. I had motolights installed on my brake calipers and I can tell ya they're nice and low so nobody gets miffed while at the same time they about triple the usefulness of the unbelievably bad front low beam on BMW motorcycles (yes, Virginia, I have silverstar bulb in it too...) They also saved my bacon on the Blue RIdge Parkway when I stumbled into some impenatrable fog. Anyway, the moto lights create a kind of UFO triangle thats a little hard to miss and I'm darn certain people can see them.
Anyway, I like 'em and I personally think the idea of adding lights and improving night vision capability as well as visibility to other drivers makes it better. So, in the driving light vs, modulator, I'd give it lights 1, Modulator 0
I'm not much for modulators; it seems a little too complicated for me. I had motolights installed on my brake calipers and I can tell ya they're nice and low so nobody gets miffed while at the same time they about triple the usefulness of the unbelievably bad front low beam on BMW motorcycles (yes, Virginia, I have silverstar bulb in it too...) They also saved my bacon on the Blue RIdge Parkway when I stumbled into some impenatrable fog. Anyway, the moto lights create a kind of UFO triangle thats a little hard to miss and I'm darn certain people can see them.
Anyway, I like 'em and I personally think the idea of adding lights and improving night vision capability as well as visibility to other drivers makes it better. So, in the driving light vs, modulator, I'd give it lights 1, Modulator 0
tommcgee
Unfunded content provider
So, you want to be seen, presumably to increase your safety/lower your risk, but you don't feel it is necessary to consider the possibility that the reactions of other motorists may actually reduce your safety.
All I have control over is my visibility and it's not absolute. I have zero control over somebody else's reaction no matter what I use to get that visibility. As long as they see me, my goal has been accomplished. If there is a reaction, I'll deal with it.
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
Well, that's simply not correct, but you are free to ride as short-sighted as you want.
tommcgee
Unfunded content provider
Well, that's simply not correct, but you are free to ride as short-sighted as you want.
It's getting pointless, Mike. It's a case of an assuming viewpoint vs. an unassuming one. I don't expect what I do to work for you, yet without knowing any details of my situation, you tell me I'm wrong.
I've got lots of options for minimizing risk and I use them all. If I were to assume anything, I'd assume you minimize your own risk in your own way. Maybe we can agree on that.
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
You are right, I don't know the details of your situation . . . but then I have never said that you are wrong for using a headlamp modulator in your situation. Most of the discussion has been about HOW you made (and should make) the decision to use one, and essentially how you are advising other people to make the decision.
You and some others have essentially been taking the position that it is not possible to anticipate (or "control") the reaction of other motorists to your use of a headlamp modulator, and there is not even a NEED for you to anticipate that reaction and factor it in to your decision about whether to use one (i.e., "headlamp modulators are legal so other motorists will just have to accept them").
If I took the position, "I have no control over an on-coming car crossing the centerline on a blind corner, and furthermore the law requires them to stay in their lane, so I do not need to adjust my riding line for blind corners to anticipate that possibility. I'll ride the way I want to in my lane, because it is legal for me to do so, and if I encounter someone coming at me over the centerline, I'll just deal with it when it happens.", I think everyone on this forum would rightly laugh me out of here. You may not want to see it, but your decision logic is exactly the same.
tommcgee
Unfunded content provider
Aw come on, Mike. I'm not trying to tick anybody off. I don't ride like that.
I haven't advocated the use of modulators. I've advocated visibility. I've also said I can't control the favorability of anybody's reaction, that modulators are annoying, and that I haven't been using one lately.
However, I have used lights, modulators, loud horns, loud outfits, and bright reflectors on my motorcycles. My experience is that the horn draws the biggest negative reaction, but most folks make apologetic gestures for invading my space. I can't predict who'll get ticked and who won't. Getting attention when necessary to save my hide is my primary motivation. If someone wants to take me out because of it, I'll deal with it if it happens.
I haven't advocated the use of modulators. I've advocated visibility. I've also said I can't control the favorability of anybody's reaction, that modulators are annoying, and that I haven't been using one lately.
However, I have used lights, modulators, loud horns, loud outfits, and bright reflectors on my motorcycles. My experience is that the horn draws the biggest negative reaction, but most folks make apologetic gestures for invading my space. I can't predict who'll get ticked and who won't. Getting attention when necessary to save my hide is my primary motivation. If someone wants to take me out because of it, I'll deal with it if it happens.
stevenmi
K100Rider
Modulators and visibility....
I am another rider who dislikes modulators. When I have a modulated bike coming at me I turn on my high beams...always.
(They are as offensive as the newer 3/4 ton pickups (with multiple sets of stock headlights) when towing (contractors and ranchers) which angles the stock super-brights right into oncoming traffic. What're they thinking! Blinding on-coming traffic seems really short-sighted.)
Whenever I am approaching a potential left-turn intrusion situation, I bleed off enough speed to stay out of trouble. ...And so far it's worked for 39 years.
Loud pipes save lives. BS. If a rider is relying on his pipes to keep out of trouble he is in the wrong place on the road. Engage brain during riding.
My feeling is ANY time I get in trouble on the road, it is MY fault. Which places all of the responsibility on my shoulders where it belongs. I am the pilot-in-command and I am responsible....and the one with the vested interest.
Have fun and ride safe.
Steve
K100Rider
Central Oregon
I am another rider who dislikes modulators. When I have a modulated bike coming at me I turn on my high beams...always.
(They are as offensive as the newer 3/4 ton pickups (with multiple sets of stock headlights) when towing (contractors and ranchers) which angles the stock super-brights right into oncoming traffic. What're they thinking! Blinding on-coming traffic seems really short-sighted.)
Whenever I am approaching a potential left-turn intrusion situation, I bleed off enough speed to stay out of trouble. ...And so far it's worked for 39 years.
Loud pipes save lives. BS. If a rider is relying on his pipes to keep out of trouble he is in the wrong place on the road. Engage brain during riding.
My feeling is ANY time I get in trouble on the road, it is MY fault. Which places all of the responsibility on my shoulders where it belongs. I am the pilot-in-command and I am responsible....and the one with the vested interest.
Have fun and ride safe.
Steve
K100Rider
Central Oregon
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
OK, I'm curious. Since it is legal to ride like that (I'm not talking about weaving in the lane, I'm talking about not adjusting your line in your lane to anticipate on-coming traffic or hazards), why do you not ride like that? What was your decision process? Why did you decide to ride the way that you ride?
tommcgee
Unfunded content provider
OK, I'm curious. Since it is legal to ride like that (I'm not talking about weaving in the lane, I'm talking about not adjusting your line in your lane to anticipate on-coming traffic or hazards), why do you not ride like that? What was your decision process? Why did you decide to ride the way that you ride?
I have no idea why you're assuming this stuff. I do all the things you've talked about doing yourself, plus a few of the things that apparently annoy you.
I do adjust my line and anticipate everything. I've been covering a thousand miles a week for 35 years. Anybody who really pays attention out there has a high degree of success at knowing what other drivers are going to do before they do it. You know someone is going to change lanes 3 seconds before they do it, sometimes two blocks ahead of time. Am I right?
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
Sorry, my writing was not clear. I WAS assuming that you DO adjust your line to anticipate the actions of on-coming motorists and other traffic. My point was the law does not require you to do it, and does not make it illegal if you do not. So, why do you anticipate the action so other motorists for this aspect of your riding (riding line), but apparently feel there is no need to anticipate the actions of other motorists for another aspect (the use of headlamp modulators)?
If headlamp modulator users would just say, "Yes, I recognize that there is the potential for other motorists to not like my headlamp modulator, and potentially react badly to it which might increase my risk, but I think the improvement in my safety due to my increased visibility to all the other drivers out there outweighs that increase in risk, and overall the headlamp modulator improves my safety." then I would say OK, you have thought through it correctly. But, what some people are saying here, sometimes adamantly, is that there is not even a need to consider the potential for adverse reactions by other motorists when they decide whether to use a headlamp modulator. I think you may also be saying this, but correct me if I am wrong.
Your use of a headlamp modulator does NOT annoy me. I have no feelings about it at all. And I am not commenting about whether it is considerate to other motorists (that's another issue). I am only commenting on how one should decide whether or not to use a headlamp modulator, or in fact, any other decision about how they ride, to improve their safety. You cannot just consider the benefits to your safety (and whether or not it is legal). You have to also consider the possible detriments to your safety, and then balance those two out. Otherwise, you can make bad safety decisions. That is all I am saying.
Yes, I recognize that there is the potential for other motorists to not like my headlamp modulator, and potentially react badly to it which might increase my risk, but I think the improvement in my safety due to my increased visibility to all the other drivers out there outweighs that increase in risk, and overall the headlamp modulator improves my safety.
I 100% agree.
But so far, it seems that the only people on this thread that assume that there might be someone out there that is going to run you of the road and attack you for the use of a headlight modulator are the ones that haven't used headlight modulators.
Has anyone personally had this sort of reaction while using their modulators?
In two years of use, I've only noticed cars that were going to pull out in front of me do a double take and then decide not to pull out.
It has also helped with the inattentive left lane bandits.
I have personally never experienced any sort of resentment or agitation from other motorists. This might have to do with the way they are aimed. When riding with my wife, I have never experienced any sort of unpleasant effect from her light in my mirrors. The only differece is that I can tell which one is hers when we are riding in a group.
Remember these are less bright than most HID car lowbeams and automatically shut off at dusk.
I have never experienced a misinterpretation of "it is now ok to run into this motorcycle that you are now looking at because I flashed my lights at you".
I am not saying that it can't or won't happen. Or that I still shouldn't ride like I am invisible and that they are trying to kill me.
Before my wife and I had modulators on our bikes, we had experienced numerous instances of other drivers looking right at us and it not registering.
When a lady who was sitting on the shoulder of a 50mph two lane road made a U-turn in front of my wife (yes, there was a collision) we decided we needed to do something to get the odds a little more in our favor.
My wife did everything that any of the best of you would have done to prevent the accident: we had a clear, straight view of the stationary car for about 3/4 mile, we slowed to 35mph and moved to the centerline, covered the brakes and expected her to pull out in front of us. My wife even tapped the anemic stock horn as she approached (we now have Stebels). My wife was ready to swerve into the oncoming lane if she pulled out. When my wife was around 30ft. away the lady pulled a U-turn. My wife hit the drivers door at a 90 degree angle on the oncoming lane side of the double yellow line.
They ladies statement to the police: They had their headlights turned off, they were speeding, I didn't see them. If the two headlights bearing down on her had been attached to my 1 ton van, the accident report would have been quite different.
Before I got back into riding, when modulators first came out, I never found them annoying when I was in my car or truck. I just thought that the guy had a loose headlight or wire. During the daylight (the only time it is activated) the effect is more of a flicker than a flashing (due to the very specific regulations that the DOT placed on them).
I would like to hear personal experiences. Not anecdotal second hand, my brother-in-law says it pisses him off or I don't like them (but never tried them). Hey, I don't like
flip up helmets (but, I've never tried them) and my brother-in-law pisses me off!
Yes, I know someone said that they investigated two accidents where the motorist said that even though they saw the motorcycle that they thought the cyclist was signaling that it was OK to drive into the space that the cyclist was occupying. What the person neglected to say was how many accidents that he had investigated where the motorist claimed, "I didn't see him".
Modulators are only one small part of my arsenal to try to increase my odds. But it is just that ODDS. Nothing is 100% effective. Very few things don't have side effects or unintended consequences.
But when your talking having maybe 50-75% of the brain dead people who wouldn't have seen you, actually see you vs. the 1 in a million who tries to hurt you because he DOES see you, I know which odds I'm going to play.
Remember the ultimate choice is up to each individual to do what he thinks will protect him the best. They are only odds, nothing is foolproof (and there are a lot of fools out there trying to kill you).
I 100% agree.
But so far, it seems that the only people on this thread that assume that there might be someone out there that is going to run you of the road and attack you for the use of a headlight modulator are the ones that haven't used headlight modulators.
Has anyone personally had this sort of reaction while using their modulators?
In two years of use, I've only noticed cars that were going to pull out in front of me do a double take and then decide not to pull out.
It has also helped with the inattentive left lane bandits.
I have personally never experienced any sort of resentment or agitation from other motorists. This might have to do with the way they are aimed. When riding with my wife, I have never experienced any sort of unpleasant effect from her light in my mirrors. The only differece is that I can tell which one is hers when we are riding in a group.
Remember these are less bright than most HID car lowbeams and automatically shut off at dusk.
I have never experienced a misinterpretation of "it is now ok to run into this motorcycle that you are now looking at because I flashed my lights at you".
I am not saying that it can't or won't happen. Or that I still shouldn't ride like I am invisible and that they are trying to kill me.
Before my wife and I had modulators on our bikes, we had experienced numerous instances of other drivers looking right at us and it not registering.
When a lady who was sitting on the shoulder of a 50mph two lane road made a U-turn in front of my wife (yes, there was a collision) we decided we needed to do something to get the odds a little more in our favor.
My wife did everything that any of the best of you would have done to prevent the accident: we had a clear, straight view of the stationary car for about 3/4 mile, we slowed to 35mph and moved to the centerline, covered the brakes and expected her to pull out in front of us. My wife even tapped the anemic stock horn as she approached (we now have Stebels). My wife was ready to swerve into the oncoming lane if she pulled out. When my wife was around 30ft. away the lady pulled a U-turn. My wife hit the drivers door at a 90 degree angle on the oncoming lane side of the double yellow line.
They ladies statement to the police: They had their headlights turned off, they were speeding, I didn't see them. If the two headlights bearing down on her had been attached to my 1 ton van, the accident report would have been quite different.
Before I got back into riding, when modulators first came out, I never found them annoying when I was in my car or truck. I just thought that the guy had a loose headlight or wire. During the daylight (the only time it is activated) the effect is more of a flicker than a flashing (due to the very specific regulations that the DOT placed on them).
I would like to hear personal experiences. Not anecdotal second hand, my brother-in-law says it pisses him off or I don't like them (but never tried them). Hey, I don't like
flip up helmets (but, I've never tried them) and my brother-in-law pisses me off!
Yes, I know someone said that they investigated two accidents where the motorist said that even though they saw the motorcycle that they thought the cyclist was signaling that it was OK to drive into the space that the cyclist was occupying. What the person neglected to say was how many accidents that he had investigated where the motorist claimed, "I didn't see him".
Modulators are only one small part of my arsenal to try to increase my odds. But it is just that ODDS. Nothing is 100% effective. Very few things don't have side effects or unintended consequences.
But when your talking having maybe 50-75% of the brain dead people who wouldn't have seen you, actually see you vs. the 1 in a million who tries to hurt you because he DOES see you, I know which odds I'm going to play.
Remember the ultimate choice is up to each individual to do what he thinks will protect him the best. They are only odds, nothing is foolproof (and there are a lot of fools out there trying to kill you).
BreadMan
New member
Yes, I recognize that there is the potential for other motorists to not like my headlamp modulator, and potentially react badly to it which might increase my risk, but I think the improvement in my safety due to my increased visibility to all the other drivers out there outweighs that increase in risk, and overall the headlamp modulator improves my safety.
I 100% agree.
But so far, it seems that the only people on this thread that assume that there might be someone out there that is going to run you of the road and attack you for the use of a headlight modulator are the ones that haven't used headlight modulators.
Has anyone personally had this sort of reaction while using their modulators?
In two years of use, I've only noticed cars that were going to pull out in front of me do a double take and then decide not to pull out.
It has also helped with the inattentive left lane bandits.
I have personally never experienced any sort of resentment or agitation from other motorists. This might have to do with the way they are aimed. When riding with my wife, I have never experienced any sort of unpleasant effect from her light in my mirrors. The only differece is that I can tell which one is hers when we are riding in a group.
Remember these are less bright than most HID car lowbeams and automatically shut off at dusk.
I have never experienced a misinterpretation of "it is now ok to run into this motorcycle that you are now looking at because I flashed my lights at you".
I am not saying that it can't or won't happen. Or that I still shouldn't ride like I am invisible and that they are trying to kill me.
Before my wife and I had modulators on our bikes, we had experienced numerous instances of other drivers looking right at us and it not registering.
When a lady who was sitting on the shoulder of a 50mph two lane road made a U-turn in front of my wife (yes, there was a collision) we decided we needed to do something to get the odds a little more in our favor.
My wife did everything that any of the best of you would have done to prevent the accident: we had a clear, straight view of the stationary car for about 3/4 mile, we slowed to 35mph and moved to the centerline, covered the brakes and expected her to pull out in front of us. My wife even tapped the anemic stock horn as she approached (we now have Stebels). My wife was ready to swerve into the oncoming lane if she pulled out. When my wife was around 30ft. away the lady pulled a U-turn. My wife hit the drivers door at a 90 degree angle on the oncoming lane side of the double yellow line.
They ladies statement to the police: They had their headlights turned off, they were speeding, I didn't see them. If the two headlights bearing down on her had been attached to my 1 ton van, the accident report would have been quite different.
Before I got back into riding, when modulators first came out, I never found them annoying when I was in my car or truck. I just thought that the guy had a loose headlight or wire. During the daylight (the only time it is activated) the effect is more of a flicker than a flashing (due to the very specific regulations that the DOT placed on them).
I would like to hear personal experiences. Not anecdotal second hand, my brother-in-law says it pisses him off or I don't like them (but never tried them). Hey, I don't like
flip up helmets (but, I've never tried them) and my brother-in-law pisses me off!
Yes, I know someone said that they investigated two accidents where the motorist said that even though they saw the motorcycle that they thought the cyclist was signaling that it was OK to drive into the space that the cyclist was occupying. What the person neglected to say was how many accidents that he had investigated where the motorist claimed, "I didn't see him".
Modulators are only one small part of my arsenal to try to increase my odds. But it is just that ODDS. Nothing is 100% effective. Very few things don't have side effects or unintended consequences.
But when your talking having maybe 50-75% of the brain dead people who wouldn't have seen you, actually see you vs. the 1 in a million who tries to hurt you because he DOES see you, I know which odds I'm going to play.
Remember the ultimate choice is up to each individual to do what he thinks will protect him the best. They are only odds, nothing is foolproof (and there are a lot of fools out there trying to kill you).
Whooaaaa Nellie!
Come up for air!
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
Lee, it sounds like you considered the pros and the cons, and balanced them out, in making your decision to use a headlamp modulator for your situation (especially considering your wife's experience), and further that you are alert to potential bad reactions in the future. Seems like a good decision-making process to me! Safe riding out there.
BTW - My K75S is also red, but I only have one. Both Ducatis are red, though!
BTW - My K75S is also red, but I only have one. Both Ducatis are red, though!
Red = the fastest color
greenwald
New member
Good post, Lee. Well thought out.
Very good post, Lee.
And, in response to your curiousity about actual modulator experience, I have run a Kisan Modulator for a couple of years now, and have the same positive feedback from other motorists that you mention - I AM noticed, and they seem to pay attention to my movements in traffic.
So far, no one has reacted like an agitated Great White and come after me.
Definitely a safer enviornment out there for me with the modulator in action.
