2004 R1150 surging/bucking/poor running

[AntonLargiader]

Yes, that it is. The upper part in this photo is what is attached to the HES, and those wires that you can see (brown/orange/etc) often show signs of deterioration right there at the plug.

 

[fbt80]

Yes, that looks like it. The cable does sneak under the Alt. You can reverse trace it by starting at the top pulley of the alt belt and follow it up.
As for wire colors, they should be the same as the manual schematics. Retrace from the top pulley.

 

[fbt80]

Ok thanks. $200 here, $200 there adds up, but I'm not opposed to do it as good PM.

B.M.W. = Bring More Wallet. Look at that nipple filled with granules.

 

[r65_steve]

Yes, that looks like it. The cable does sneak under the Alt. You can reverse trace it by starting at the top pulley of the alt belt and follow it up.
As for wire colors, they should be the same as the manual schematics. Retrace from the top pulley.

I'll have to check it against the manual/Clymer, but @AntonLargiader said that's it. I think mine's been replaced at some point. Wire tie (not pictured) looks newer than others.

The leading theory on the actual problem seems to be a bad/lazy O2 sensor that the AF XIED is reacting with. I ran the bike without o2 sensor and then hooked o2/AF unit back up and it was bad (again).

 

[Lendog]

I have been having an on going issue with my R1150. 55K owned since 2018 (with 27K) It started as a feeling of resistance when riding. On the highway, the twisties, etc it was like you were riding into a headwind. I did plugs, valves, cleaned electrical connections, etc. Still there. I took it to a reputable shop and the fuel filter had developed a pinhole in it. It was replaced along with the little fuel lines (straight from Germany for one of them!). The idle had been high, so that was set to normal, and the throttle bodies balanced.

I immediately noticed that there was now a dead spot when cruising. Anywhere from 3500 to 4500. Pulling the throttle harder wasn't an issue, just a gradual rise would feel like a dead spot. Of course, a yank on the grip and I'd be going faster than I wanted. Sometimes, it'd feel like a bucking sensation. I know this can be a common problem with this engine.

I took it back today and he adjusted the TPS with the GS 911. No better. Swapped in another used TPS that came with the bike. No better. (In fact I never rode it with that unit). A used one from his collection. No better. We've agreed that I'll come back when he has a known good running bike in the shop to test against mine. On the way back from the shop about 40 miles, plus a lot of stop and go traffic, it stalled out 4 times.

In the meantime here's some other facts. It's missing the pink relay for the 02 sensor (I only know this from forum reading, I assume that's what's missing). There are no jumpers in the pins of the missing relay. Bike still has the charcoal cannister. Coils were replaced a couple seasons ago, verified OK by the shop. Bike came installed with a AF-XIED (https://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafo2sema.html).

Huh, in creating this post, I see this on the beemerboneyard page: THE AF-XIED REQUIRES A STRONG O2 SIGNAL. IF YOUR O2 SENSOR HAS MORE THAN 50,000 MILES ON IT YOU MAY WANT TO CONSIDER BUYING A NEW O2 SENSOR WHEN INSTALLING THE AF-XIED. YOU CAN FIND THEM ON THIS PAGE FOR 1100, 1150 & K1200 MODELS
I'm right at that mileage.

While I'm waiting for him to get back to me, what can I check on my own or think about replacing? I like this bike but also want a newer bike. I'm debating on how much money I want to throw at it, but it's also bordering on worthless if it doesn't run nicely.

Don’t remove the canister and don’t top off the gas because liquid fuel will migrate into the canister,
I would consider possible brake dragging

 

[Lendog]

While waiting...read about removing the charcoal cannister. Not hard, a few breather lines to remove and or plug. Should have plenty of directions on this site. Left alone it will continue to dump granules of charcoal into your fuel system. Remove ASAP and clean out everything down stream of the Cannister. Listen to no one who sez to keep it.
Fun times.

Charcoal gets into the liquid fuel from overfilling the fuel tank or the bike laying on the ground, removing the canister does create other issues,
check your local dealer many canisters have been removed by tinkerers for unintelligent reasons, they are laying around everywhere

 

[rogerc60]

The HES problem isn't really a problem with the HES, rather it's the wiring harness. BMW used biodegradable wire and over the years it degraded. Somewhere in the 2003 model year they switched to a non-degradable wire. You can tell the difference this way: the old degradable wire has a somewhat shiny black outer cover that fits snugly over the wires. The newer better wire has a somewhat dull black outer cover that fits loosely over the wires. If you have the latter, it's unlikely the HES is the cause of your problem.

 

[fbt80]

Charcoal gets into the liquid fuel from overfilling the fuel tank or the bike laying on the ground, removing the canister does create other issues,
check your local dealer many canisters have been removed by tinkerers for unintelligent reasons, they are laying around everywhere

"Listen to no one who sez to keep it." ...and here's one now.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I say keep it, too.

 

[fbt80]

I say keep it, too.

Care to elaborate?

 

[fbt80]

I'll have to check it against the manual/Clymer, but @AntonLargiader said that's it. I think mine's been replaced at some point. Wire tie (not pictured) looks newer than others.

The leading theory on the actual problem seems to be a bad/lazy O2 sensor that the AF XIED is reacting with. I ran the bike without o2 sensor and then hooked o2/AF unit back up and it was bad (again).

Steve, also before you remove the old HES, do yourself a favor and scribe some scratches or marker the edge of the HES plate before you loosen the three mounting /adjustment bolts. reinstall the new plate centering them between your marks. This will put you in the ball park for advance/retard setting. The adjustment affects a very small bit of ignition advance. 5% +- For your info, this plate has two sensors on it. One triggers the ignition (spark) and the other triggers the fuel pump, so if there is a short or break in the wire you can imagine the problems it would create. Make sure you torque to spec and the outer hockey puck sized cover is indexed on the crank correctly and torqued to spec. Sounds harder than it really is.

 

[kbasa]

Care to elaborate?

I left the one on my 05 RT. I didn't plan on dropping it and filling it with fuel. It causes no detriment to performance and as a person with some care for the environment, I didn't see any value in allowing more evaporative fuel emissions into the air without some commensurate improvement in performance.

It's still hanging in on a 19yo motorcycle and has caused no issues. I took the one off my R11S because they positioned it like they were proud of it or something, but for my wife's R11RS and R1150R, I just left them on for the same reasons I left it on my RT. When I pulled the canister, I very carefully ensured that I wasn't leaving a vacuum leak somewhere along the way that would cause problems. If memory serves, I had to cap two lines that fed the collected evaporated fuel back into the bottom of the throttle bodies?

Same for my GS. No detriment to performance or reliability so I've left it.

At this point in the evolution of internal combustion, emissions controls are not detrimental to performance.

 

[bc1100s]

If your bike is a 2004 it should have an HES with the updated wiring. Eyeballing it only let's you see the sheath that encased the wires.  If the wires are deteriorated, they'll be inside that sheath.

Not saying it isn't your problem but from your descriptions, I doubt it.... unless the bike changes character when the front of the motor has been exposed to water.

As well, fbt80 has good advice regarding scribing the position of the HES plate.

 

[r65_steve]

If your bike is a 2004 it should have an HES with the updated wiring. Eyeballing it only let's you see the sheath that encased the wires.  If the wires are deteriorated, they'll be inside that sheath.

Not saying it isn't your problem but from your descriptions, I doubt it.... unless the bike changes character when the front of the motor has been exposed to water.

As well, fbt80 has good advice regarding scribing the position of the HES plate.

Yeah, I have a new HES in hand and I will recheck the wiring when I take off the tank tomorrow evening. After a lot of testing, I think it was the o2 Sensor on it's way out, acting up with the AF XIED unit. If things operate correctly with the new O2 sensor, I'm probably not going to install the HES.

If I do have to do it, I heard all about the scribing. Thanks!

 

[fbt80]

I left the one on my 05 RT. I didn't plan on dropping it and filling it with fuel. It causes no detriment to performance and as a person with some care for the environment, I didn't see any value in allowing more evaporative fuel emissions into the air without some commensurate improvement in performance.

It's still hanging in on a 19yo motorcycle and has caused no issues. I took the one off my R11S because they positioned it like they were proud of it or something, but for my wife's R11RS and R1150R, I just left them on for the same reasons I left it on my RT. When I pulled the canister, I very carefully ensured that I wasn't leaving a vacuum leak somewhere along the way that would cause problems. If memory serves, I had to cap two lines that fed the collected evaporated fuel back into the bottom of the throttle bodies?

Same for my GS. No detriment to performance or reliability so I've left it.

At this point in the evolution of internal combustion, emissions controls are not detrimental to performance.

I've never "planned" to drop mine, but have 3 or 4 times. When I bought the bike with 23k on the odometer, being intrinsically a lazy mechanic, I hooked up the out flow and had it pee into a cup so to speak first to see if there were obvious problems that warranted pulling the plate and got black residue as well as fuel. Pulled everything, fuel filter needed to be changed anyway so I cut the old one open for fun and it was black. So traced to the canister. And proved it was after fuel ran clean.

BMW made 33,741 copies of this bike before realizing they inadvertently designed a good looking bike and quickly ended it's production.
You could buy one in countless countries around the world...only one country had this home-made"fix"to pass US emissions. I want a stock copy, designed as intended anyway.
All the surging found in off throttle we experience is due to the switch to fuel injection, not because of superior German engineering, it was so they could write a fuel map to lean out the fuel delivery to pass EURO emissions.
Believe me, if BMW had been able to get the bikes imported with carburetors we'd all be owning jet kits. For me, this may be the last internal combustion vehicle I ever purchase again, so the environment will rest easy knowing yet another carbon offender will be minimized.

 

[Lendog]

"Listen to no one who sez to keep it." ...and here's one now.

you need a hobby

 

[pauls1150]

Keep it??? No Way!!! The possibility of charcoal bits getting sucked thru the hoses and into the throttle bodies and intake valve seats is too much to ignore. This is not hearsay, it's actually happened.

 

[fbt80]

you need a hobby

I do, it's you.

 

[Lendog]

I do, it's you.

I always hope that everyone has a life or at least seeks one, I would like to say good luck seeker

 

[fbt80]

I'll wait until you say something interesting.