Why is it recommended to hang your butt off the seat when in aggressive cornering

[alancoles]

Why is everyone trying to make this so complicated? Leaning off was started by racers in order to get more speed in a turn. How does this equal more speed? Simply because leaning off allows the bike to remain more upright and therefore faster (since hard parts are not dragging). Now the professionals are all over the place and as others have alluded to on this thread it really is now a science. Push, lean, rise up, get down, leg out, elbow out and all that and more depending on which turn they are in. Add to this the many racers who now drag an elbow in the turns and we street riders may need to just take a step back and rethink the necessity of any of this.

Today's tip: If you're into a turn hot hot hot (to quote a really good rider friend) then you may want to consider moving your mass (can leave the m off if you prefer) to the inside of the turn. This will keep hopefully the bike from dragging hard parts and will hopefully keep you out of the woods.
On the street you'll still look stupid but survival beats image all day long.

Agreed.

As far as I'm concerned, this is not something that should be part of anyone's daily riding and I don't care how well regarded the proponents are, I have yet to hear a convincing case for it, except for the situation several have shared here of finding one's self going into a corner too hot, etc., and need the benefit of additional cornering clearance.

Before I get a ton of irate posts, let me explain. On the track one is trying to find every 1/10th to 1/100th of a second and maximum performance is critical. On the street, survival is critical not maximum performance. If you are leaning off the bike in normal street riding than one of two things are happening:

1. you are travelling at a speed well above the posted limits and therefore this does not fit the definition of "normal street riding". It might fit the definition of "your" typical street riding, but that doesn't make it "normal street riding". ;-)
2. you are leaning off when it isn't necessary and are actually not learning how far your bike can actually lean with you in a standard riding position

#1 is fine (aside from any legal, safety, socially-responsible issues)
#2 is very problematic. First, you are likely to actually become a very slow and hesitant rider if you are hanging off the bike at legal speeds or say 10-20 clicks above. At those speeds, the bike should have plenty of cornering clearance unless you are riding a few of the showier HD models. H-D's touring models often have more cornering clearance than many of their styling models.

To my mind, proper riding style for public roads is a) stay in your lane and b) keep your butt in the centre of the seat or just a slight "cheek shift" while cornering. Think about the idea of having a safety margin. There are far more unknowns and hidden hazards on public roads than on any racetrack. If you are already "hanging-off" the bike and one of those jumps in front of you, what do you have left?

I think everyone should practice sliding their butt (half of it) off the seat and slightly dropping a knee so that they understand the procedure and get comfortable enough doing it, but reserve that action for an emergency that could save your life. If you are doing this as a regular riding posture on public streets and not always riding at highly illegal speeds then I think you are not using the existing cornering clearance that your bike naturally has and therefore in an emergency situation you will not have a good idea of what cornering you actually have and you'll have very little reserve.

I have watched riders go down on public streets from both situations, not realizing that they had more cornering left because they appeared to be the ones always hanging off the side when it wasn't needed, and those that weren't aware of the extra clearance available if the did hang off the side properly. It is never nice to see, especially when injuries are involved. I hate seeing a motorcycle go down in front of me and have seen it happen to too many riders. Learning to understand and get comfortable with the limits of your bike goes a long way towards avoiding such a situation. Leaving a safety margin on public streets should be a no-brainer. The first and #1 improvement/farkle anyone should do with their bike is getting the rider into a good riding course (safe riding, performance riding, etc.). That one action has the ability to make any rider quicker, safer, and more aware. It will also definitely increase one's enjoyment of and appreciation for riding.

 

[rogerc60]

For my street riding practices as I'm ultra cautious but still enjoy spirited riding I've tried three different approaches:

1. Inside knee out, cheek just off the seat inside, upper body inside and down
2. Neutral body/weight always aligned WITH the bike's midline--no change in position
3. Body/weight ALWAYS VERTICAL, tipping the bike right/left but keeping the body perpendicular to the ground, not the bike. This is what dirt bike riders routinely do.

#3 is always viewed as heresy in street riding whenever I've brought this up. It's counter to everything we've learned about cornering. Here's the thing: for sane street riding it's shockingly effective.

I found this recently posted on another forum. Confirms your approach #3.

https://youtu.be/rDJZjdKai24

 

[pglaves]

Every on track or on road riding school I am aware of teaches to shift your weight to the inside of the corner/curve. (In the dirt it is different.) The various propositions include dropping your shoulder, pointing your elbow, pointing your chin, weighting the inside peg, and indeed (gasp) shifting location in the saddle, slightly, or moreso. Now I read here on this forum the experts who know more than the teachers I have had or have read: Pridmore, Code, Parks, etc.

Each of you have the right to pick who you choose to believe. You can even attempt to explain mass and other physics problems. But at the same time I know which credentials a person will have that I choose to believe. Carry on the conversation. If not valuable it is at least humorous.

 

[vtbob]

Each of you have the right to pick who you choose to believe. You can even attempt to explain mass and other physics problems. But at the same time I know which credentials a person will have that I choose to believe. Carry on the conversation. If not valuable it is at least humorous.

Well said.

I, however have always been one to question the status quo, the established fact, when I see clear flaws. I question my premise, try to seek out well thought out arguements that would disprove my contention. Answers that the fall in the category "the book says so" or the like hold very little credence for me.

While I respect experts, listen to experts, I do not defer my judgement to theirs with out quantitive (not subjective) proof.

So far, in this case, I have found no such quantitive proof.

And I do find this conversation both informative and humorous!

 

[vark]

I found this recently posted on another forum. Confirms your approach #3.

https://youtu.be/rDJZjdKai24

Pretty cool. The dirt bike rider was able to corner faster and tighter than the sport bike riders.

 

[cabnfvr]

Every on track or on road riding school I am aware of teaches to shift your weight to the inside of the corner/curve. ...... Carry on the conversation. If not valuable it is at least humorous.

Agreed. I'm talking about extreme hanging off. IMO that's completely unnecessary for street riding. Out of all these post I think Alan nailed it.
Now I need to go see where I can find some 2 dollar oil for my 20,000 dollar toy.

 

[ncpbmw1953]

If you are already "hanging-off" the bike and one of those jumps in front of you, what do you have left?

I think everyone should practice sliding their butt (half of it) off the seat and slightly dropping a knee so that they understand the procedure and get comfortable enough doing it, but reserve that action for an emergency that could save your life. If you are doing this as a regular riding posture on public streets and not always riding at highly illegal speeds then I think you are not using the existing cornering clearance that your bike naturally has and therefore in an emergency situation you will not have a good idea of what cornering you actually have and you'll have very little reserve.

I don't see the conclusion the same way as one of your arguments appears to. If you're advising someone to practice the procedure so they can implement this in a situation where they have already hit the max lean angle in the turn this necessitates moving the body DURING that high risk moment, and sounds far more dicey then 'pre-setting' the position well prior to getting into that critical moment of truth. If I normally keep my weight to the inside by shifting my butt/torso/etc to the inside of the turn when riding more aggressively I KNOW I have quite a bit of lean left if I have come into the corner faster than desired and need to add more lean and to do that all I need to do at that point is counter-steer a bit more--I don't need to adjust my weight I'm already in the safest position in terms of cornering physics. Sounds easier and safer. At least that's how I do and see it when riding more aggressively. This being said I think there is real value in learning where full lean is, and to be honest I've not done this. That doesn't mean I very clearly don't know I have lean left--my "chicken strips" indicate I have about another 5/8" to exploit and as I say when doing spirited riding I do move weight to the inside significantly. The other significant benefit of this practice of NOT doing the full lean unless needed is exactly for that undetected surface debris.

 

[rick601]

OK now that you have all posted your little theories- the real reason I hang off- yes extreme- is so when I befoul myself from coming into a turn too hot with a car coming in the opposite direction, I don't squish all that sewage all around my bottom as well as stink up the seat of my $18000 motorcycle. I'll be hangin' extreme till the next rest room where I can clean up from my close call.

 

[ncpbmw1953]

I found this recently posted on another forum. Confirms your approach #3.

https://youtu.be/rDJZjdKai24

I love it what a crack up, or not!

 

[brownie0486]

On the KGT, the chicken strips were 3/16", on the GS1200 they are 3/8". I was taught in two formal street courses to lean out into the turn as if kissing the mirror. Not after into the turn, but setting up for it. That's moving more weight to the inside of the turn than remaining neutral on the seat.

 

[fmdualexhaust]

OK now that you have all posted your little theories- the real reason I hang off- yes extreme- is so when I befoul myself from coming into a turn too hot with a car coming in the opposite direction, I don't squish all that sewage all around my bottom as well as stink up the seat of my $18000 motorcycle. I'll be hangin' extreme till the next rest room where I can clean up from my close call.

That would explain that strange look on your face during our last ride.

 

[akbeemer]

On the KGT, the chicken strips were 3/16", on the GS1200 they are 3/8". I was taught in two formal street courses to lean out into the turn as if kissing the mirror. Not after into the turn, but setting up for it. That's moving more weight to the inside of the turn than remaining neutral on the seat.

You measured them?

 

[alancoles]

... I was taught in two formal street courses to lean out into the turn as if kissing the mirror. Not after into the turn, but setting up for it. That's moving more weight to the inside of the turn than remaining neutral on the seat.

There are plenty of courses/schools available, most are very good but most are understandably limited in what they can teach in a condensed period and what they feel is "safe" to tell/show students.

The "kissing the mirror" phrase is meant to have a rider transfer their weight to the inside of the turn and forward and lower on the bike. All good and applicable for spirited riding, for normal street or backroad riding at the speed limit to perhaps 10-clicks above, it has little value as your bike should have plenty of traction and clearance without any repositioning.

Many also teach that you do all your braking in a straight line, accelerate on corner entry and never reduce throttle in a turn. All of that is good in regular situations, if you don't have any surprises, or if you come upon them in a straight line but that doesn't always happen. In the real world, pucker moments can happen any and every place. More often than not they seem to happen in the worst place at the most inopportune time, at least that what it feels like sometimes.

Like others, on the track I've had to adjust the bike and myself in every part of a corner while passing another rider and on the streets, I've had to avoid all manner of animals and birds (had a robin hit me directly in my neck) as well as flying objects including a mattress flying off a pickup truck several cars in front of me on a crowded Interstate and a kitchen table flying off the back of a truck coming from the opposite direction. Then there are the situations where you are part way through a turn on a spirited ride only to spot silt on your line, and more, that wasn't visible from a distance. If one hasn't left themselves any leeway or wiggle room then there might be a big problem.

Definitely, the safest and preferred style of riding is to not overdrive your field of vision, always being able to safely bring the bike to a complete stop within the distance that you have a clear line of sight of your path and not making changes mid-corner, etc. With very spirited riding, or unfriendly surprises, that is not always possible and you can be left needing to adjust and adapt. From my perspective, one should get at least a little comfortable changing their line at any and all points in a turn (below maximum or even spirited cornering velocity) as well as changing their position on the bike in those situations.

My philosophy has always been to expect everything you can imagine, and don't rule out things you could never have imagined.

 

[brownie0486]

You measured them?

Yup, had never heard the term until 2 summers ago, when riding with a 1600GT on my 1200GT. We had done some heavy twisties and stopped for gas once in the valley. He mentioned my chicken strips were thin, what? After I pumped gas, I checked what he was talking about. Got home and measured the distance to the side wall. 3/16ths on the GT.

Since then, I've measured them after a rather vigorous ride on twisties with the GS, 3/8" is best I care to lean that bike, or care to at the moment.

 

[brownie0486]

There are plenty of courses/schools available, most are very good but most are understandably limited in what they can teach in a condensed period and what they feel is "safe" to tell/show students.

The "kissing the mirror" phrase is meant to have a rider transfer their weight to the inside of the turn and forward and lower on the bike. All good and applicable for spirited riding, for normal street or backroad riding at the speed limit to perhaps 10-clicks above, it has little value as your bike should have plenty of traction and clearance without any repositioning.

Many also teach that you do all your braking in a straight line, accelerate on corner entry and never reduce throttle in a turn. All of that is good in regular situations, if you don't have any surprises, or if you come upon them in a straight line but that doesn't always happen. In the real world, pucker moments can happen any and every place. More often than not they seem to happen in the worst place at the most inopportune time, at least that what it feels like sometimes.

Like others, on the track I've had to adjust the bike and myself in every part of a corner while passing another rider and on the streets, I've had to avoid all manner of animals and birds (had a robin hit me directly in my neck) as well as flying objects including a mattress flying off a pickup truck several cars in front of me on a crowded Interstate and a kitchen table flying off the back of a truck coming from the opposite direction. Then there are the situations where you are part way through a turn on a spirited ride only to spot silt on your line, and more, that wasn't visible from a distance. If one hasn't left themselves any leeway or wiggle room then there might be a big problem.

Definitely, the safest and preferred style of riding is to not overdrive your field of vision, always being able to safely bring the bike to a complete stop within the distance that you have a clear line of sight of your path and not making changes mid-corner, etc. With very spirited riding, or unfriendly surprises, that is not always possible and you can be left needing to adjust and adapt. From my perspective, one should get at least a little comfortable changing their line at any and all points in a turn (below maximum or even spirited cornering velocity) as well as changing their position on the bike in those situations.

My philosophy has always been to expect everything you can imagine, and don't rule out things you could never have imagined.

 

[pglaves]

The "kissing the mirror" phrase is meant to have a rider transfer their weight to the inside of the turn and forward and lower on the bike. All good and applicable for spirited riding, for normal street or backroad riding at the speed limit to perhaps 10-clicks above, it has little value as your bike should have plenty of traction and clearance without any repositioning.

To poke a little here, that sounds logical for eastern Canada where the two-lane speed limits are 90 kph and 10 clicks over gets you up to 62 or so miles per hour. Here in west Texas and much of the rest of the western US we find curvy two lane roads with a speed limit of 75 mph. If I then ride 10 clicks (6 mph) over that I am running right along at about 80, not 60. Thus, quasi legal spirited riding out here may be 20 mph faster than quasi legal spirited riding in eastern Canada. Of course that is just considering the speed limits. I know lots of roads where all but the very best riders won't maintain the speed limit.

 

[akbeemer]

Much the same here in Tropical Montana. The road past my place is in a valley that leads up to three Continental Divide passes, the first being about 20 miles away. The speed limit is the nominal for Montana, 70 MPH, and remains that way even when the road gets fairly twisty. Once the road becomes very twisty with several 90+ degree turns, the speed limit drops to 60 MPH. The penalty for over shooting some of these cornors would be quite high and result in a rapid loss in altitude. God bless anyone who can run that stretch of road at 10 Km over.

 

[Visian]

I've never under stood why it is standard practice to hang your butt off the seat when cornering hard!

The only reason I can understand if for serious racers who's lean angles either go beyond the edges of the side tread on the tires or lean angle puts the pegs in the pavement.

But I see riders, even racers doing it well before reaching the above limits. Why?

Because you think you look cool...

 

[brownie0486]

Because you think you look cool...

https://www.ridinginthezone.com/body-position-tips-2/

The “basic”, “intermediate”, and “full” hang off techniques.

There's 3 basic levels of hanging, not just the full hang.

 

[barryg]

I've never under stood why it is standard practice to hang your butt off the seat when cornering hard!

Hemorrhoids: