Who makes the most reliable motorcycle?

[vtbob]

That's true, but you'll get no objective sympathy on this forum.

11,000 is not a "small sampling," and a 40% failure rate after 4 years of ownership for BMW is quite believable.

BMW sales is still cashing in on a reputation it had decades ago, but today is rather questionable. My hope is that someone comes on board soon, high enough in the corporate structure to right the ship.

You can ignore the results, rationalize away the competition or simply swirl the Kool-Aid in one's mouth and reminisce about a bygone era of reliability, but the survey is what it is - an interesting snapshot of owner satisfaction in the motorcycle industry.

+1 on that

 

[Omega Man]

Not for nothing- BMW has a warranty that is unlike any other bikes that I'm aware of.........there may be more.
BMW of North America, LLC (“BMW NA”) warrants to the first retail purchaser and each subsequent purchaser of 2016 US specification BMW Motorrad USA motorcycles and scooters, imported by BMW NA or sold through the BMW NA Military Sales Program to be free of defects in materials or workmanship for a period of three (3) years or 36,000 miles (whichever occurs first), except for as noted below. The warranty period commences on the date the vehicle is delivered to its first retail purchaser, or, if the vehicle is first placed in service as a BMW Press vehicle, BMW Employee Lease vehicle, BMW demonstrator, BMW display vehicle, BMW Fleet vehicle or BMW dealer demonstrator prior to sale at retail, on the date the vehicle is first placed in such service.

I can remember the days of buying an import motorcycle and it was almost a "tail light" warranty. It seems to me that if a company offers a 3 year warranty, there is an interest in supporting their product.
OM

 

[motodan]

Not for nothing- BMW has a warranty that is unlike any other bikes that I'm aware of.........there may be more.
BMW of North America, LLC (“BMW NA”) warrants to the first retail purchaser and each subsequent purchaser of 2016 US specification BMW Motorrad USA motorcycles and scooters, imported by BMW NA or sold through the BMW NA Military Sales Program to be free of defects in materials or workmanship for a period of three (3) years or 36,000 miles (whichever occurs first), except for as noted below. The warranty period commences on the date the vehicle is delivered to its first retail purchaser, or, if the vehicle is first placed in service as a BMW Press vehicle, BMW Employee Lease vehicle, BMW demonstrator, BMW display vehicle, BMW Fleet vehicle or BMW dealer demonstrator prior to sale at retail, on the date the vehicle is first placed in such service.

I can remember the days of buying an import motorcycle and it was almost a "tail light" warranty. It seems to me that if a company offers a 3 year warranty, there is an interest in supporting their product.
OM

Why did BMW do away with the unlimited miles portion of their 36 months warranty some years back? Harley has unlimited miles, but 24 months time wise. Also a number of manufactures provide extended contracts/warranties under their brand name. Kawasaki provides a 36 months warranty on their Concours and has optional extended coverage available. Why doesn't BMW underwrite/provide (or license a third-party to do so) additional coverage as an option? I assume it's because premium costs would have to be very high, to cover empirically provided incident data, that it would not sell...and it would make these poor quality survey results appear more factual as to negatively affect sales.

I remember speaking with our BMW regional rep during the antenna ring debacle, back in '09. Her comment was, "yes it isn't good, but give it a couple of years and our customer base will forget about it...they always do." She wasn't around for the 2014 rear strut debacle, so not sure what she'd have said, probably the same.

 

[Omega Man]

Why did BMW do away with the unlimited miles portion of their 36 months warranty some years back? Harley has unlimited miles, but 24 months time wise. Also a number of manufactures provide extended contracts/warranties under their brand name. Kawasaki provides a 36 months warranty on their Concours and has optional extended coverage available. Why doesn't BMW underwrite/provide (or license a third-party to do so) additional coverage as an option? I assume it's because premium costs would have to be very high, to cover empirically provided incident data, that it would not sell...and it would make these poor quality survey results appear more factual as to negatively affect sales.

No idea on the mileage change. I'm quite sure you can buy a supplemental warranty for the BMW line if you want........You can get them for about anything else on the planet. Are they worth it? Are they any good? I don't know.

I remember speaking with our BMW regional rep during the antenna ring debacle, back in '09. Her comment was, "yes it isn't good, but give it a couple of years and our customer base will forget about it...they always do." She wasn't around for the 2014 rear strut debacle, so not sure what she'd have said, probably the same.

The "rear strut debacle" story, is getting old.....old in that to keep rehashing it seems to make the point that BMW has specifically sourced a part from an untrusted manufacturer- just for sport. BMW took care of it (as best they could) considering it seemed to require "going back to the drawing board" for the replacement part. It seems that some that were really upset with this (no doubt PITA inconvenience) went and bought a new BMW or repurchased a repaired (refurbished) bike.

Can't be all that bad.
OM

 

[anglojaxon]

Cs bs

Consumer report flags small cars as being "too small" and convertibles as "noisy." They praise Subaru's to no end. My wife had a 2015 Forester that blew a CVT transmission under 10K. Of course Subaru said "That's weird, we've never seen this." Several source on the internet had a lot of reports with the same issue. So, why are the parts to fix it on a 3 month backorder? Never seen Consumer Reports report this fact. Wife's dad bought her a life time membership, so yeah, I see them.

I don't trust them for major items. They are geared to a wide variety of products and treat cars as products for people who view them as such. Auto magazines aren't reviewing washing machines and blenders. Why is Consumer Reports reviewing Motorcycles? I don't think they review cars well enough to review motorcycles every couple of years to be an authoritative source.


People that buy premium products have an expectation of flawlessness for their money. I was at at Audi dealer buying a MINI a few years ago and a woman was ranting she's only had her Audi for a year and she's already having problems. The problem? The wiper blades needed to be replaced. She couldn't believe her 40K+ car needed repairs. Unreal. The Audi guy and I looked at each other and silently acknowledge the buffoonery.

While I loved the MINI it had issues, more so that other cars. Clutch wear was way too quick. Weird places started to rust. The ABS sensor in the seat itself was chipped and you had to replace the entire seat to correct it. The gear shift came out, it was basically a plastic friction part that held it in place.

I would buy a Honda Car and Lease a BMW car. Performance and feature wise, the BMW would win but they do have issues. Having lived in Germany I noted that the cost of car ownership was higher, the TUV was strict and people actually maintained their cars as cars, not appliances that got Jiffy Lube oil changes every 3K. German cars seem to need to be well maintained and ran. The autobahn is far better maintained than the roads we have in the states. Our roads are pitiful in comparison. Porsche had an issue with a bearing that would fall apart and destroy the engine. They found the cars it occurred in were garage queens that weren't driven often. The seal would fail early because it didn't get lubricated. The point is people drive and maintain cars differently in the states.

I owned an UltraClassic that had a fuel pump issue. Replaced under warranty. Rear brakes failed due to a manufacturing issue, o ring not property seated. Fixed at no cost. Otherwise no problem. It was a great bike for what it was. It was an inconvenience, that's about it.

I read a story about a Honda CEO who was asked about Honda's reliability, he said they have the same failure rate as other brands, they just have better follow up.

Some people don't realize their dealer isn't Harley, Ford or BMW. They are independent dealers. You're local dealer is your local dealer and the impression you get of the Brand comes from them.

Sad but most people today can't change oil, refill wiper fluid or rotate and change tires or read the owners manual. The people that do know how to work on older engines have a hard time today because engine are wrapped in plastic and so tightly packed in it's a real pain in the ass to get to an oil filter. Manufacturer's are trying to limit what you can do to your car. Oil companies in the states subsidize ethanol that wrecks an engine over time. This will put you at the mercy of dealers that manufacture high costs and charge $250 to replace an $80 O2 sensor. The whole engine management thing starves your engine of fuel to "save the environment" and completely ignores the energy costs to support the infrastructure to support it is 5 times greater to maintain.

Think about a lean engine, running ethanol. The wear and heat is greater, the failure rate of seals is higher and then the cost of manufacturing, transportation, fuel to deliver the mechanic, the parts is greater. The fuel and labor to covert corn into ethanol, but your car/bike runs "cleaner." Who do I ultimately blame? It's altruism run amok. Well meaning people in the public and private sector that don't think ahead and try to solve a problem by creating a larger more complex problem.

The more complex a machine is, the higher the failure rate and the higher the cost to repair.

 

[pglaves]

That's true, but you'll get no objective sympathy on this forum.

11,000 is not a "small sampling," and a 40% failure rate after 4 years of ownership for BMW is quite believable.

My simple quibble with this is what is classified as a "failure". Read the entire thing and then reach your own conclusions.

 

[easy]

Regardless of what you think about the CR article, BMWs certainly have had their issues. My 2006 has had two rear ends, and a leaky fuel pump replaced (after recall work was preformed); and when I'm on a long trip I always keep the location of the nearest dealership in the back of my mind. That said, I think they're the best riding bikes on the road.
I'll probably get a new one this year.



(But I still say their seats are designed by Preparation H. )

E.

 

[motodan]

Missed the point.

No idea on the mileage change.

Take a wild guess on why unlimited mileage was dropped. You might start with claims cost.


I'm quite sure you can buy a supplemental warranty for the BMW line if you want........You can get them for about anything else on the planet. Are they worth it? Are they any good? I don't know.

No you can not....BMW does not provide any optional cost extended warranty coverage on their motorcycle line. The question was, why is it BMW does not provide an extended warranty option when other manufactures do? Kawasaki, Suzuki and others put their name on an optional warranty product. For years BMW been telling their dealers such a product is coming. This has nothing to do with unlicensed (by manufacture) third party "contracts", as you seem to reference. BMW provides it for their car line, but not motorcycles. Again, I think it's because BMW hasn't been able to find an actuary who can price such a warranty based on expected claims from BMW's own empirical data. Sure, you can price anything, but it makes little sense if resulting premiums are so high you can't find a buyer.



The "rear strut debacle" story, is getting old.....old in that to keep rehashing it seems to make the point that BMW has specifically sourced a part from an untrusted manufacturer- just for sport. BMW took care of it (as best they could) considering it seemed to require "going back to the drawing board" for the replacement part. It seems that some that were really upset with this (no doubt PITA inconvenience) went and bought a new BMW or repurchased a repaired (refurbished) bike.

It isn't old if you owned one of those Ultimate Machines. Point being where was BMW's legendary qualify control standards when it came to this strut problem. Imagine some buyers think the premium price they pay goes to the best quality control process in the industry...or does that premium go mostly to exclusiveness?

Can't be all that bad.

Can't be all good.

 

[daboo]

Like the rest of you here, I really like my BMW. In this case, an F800GT. I know, it's not a "real" BMW because it doesn't have a boxer engine, but it does well enough for me. I rode it on a whim just to see if all the negatives were true about it. Instead, I found the bike to be incredibly smooth. I looked for the heat issue, and couldn't find it. The bike is a joy to ride several hundred miles in a day, and leaves me without feeling exhausted.

That said, I didn't drink the Kool-aid. I trust the bike will perform and not leave me stranded somewhere. But I also have roadside assistance, just in case.

The Honda I had before, seemed more "finished". Things like the switches seemed designed for the life of the bike...measured in hundreds of thousands of miles. The switches on my F800GT seem cheap in comparison. They do the job, but I wouldn't be surprised if one broke tomorrow. I like the way the panels come off the bike. Simple. Functional. But there's no elegance in the way they are mounted. The Honda fairings had no exposed screws...but I do like not having to remember how you unsnapped each part. Obviously, the pluses outweighed the minuses and I bought the BMW and sold the Honda.

I feel like BMW did some awesome engineering to make a wonderfully performing bike. But in their quest to shave a bit of weight here, and some more weight there, they sacrificed the robustness of their product to the point where it doesn't hold up like the competition.

If you were to look at the Honda forum for the bike I had before, you'd see some really dumb threads. They have little to talk about otherwise. Few threads are there about how to fix this or that. It just doesn't break. And multiple owners have well over 100,000 miles in just the few years they've owned the bike (it was only sold in 2010 and 2011 in the USA). One of the owners just turned over 160,000 miles. He doesn't do anything special to the bike either. He gets on it and rides it. Changes the oil, and adjusts the valves at about three times the recommended interval. I'm not even sure he's washed it. On a BMW forum, that would be considered abuse...but that's what the Honda design and quality control can produce. A bike that just keeps going like the Energizer bunny.

As said earlier, I like my F800GT...but if it breaks, I will look to see what other companies have to offer as a replacement. The Kool-aid just doesn't appeal to me.

Chris

 

[greenwald]

Like the rest of you here, I really like my BMW. In this case, an F800GT. I know, it's not a "real" BMW because it doesn't have a boxer engine, but it does well enough for me. I rode it on a whim just to see if all the negatives were true about it. Instead, I found the bike to be incredibly smooth. I looked for the heat issue, and couldn't find it. The bike is a joy to ride several hundred miles in a day, and leaves me without feeling exhausted.

That said, I didn't drink the Kool-aid. I trust the bike will perform and not leave me stranded somewhere. But I also have roadside assistance, just in case.

The Honda I had before, seemed more "finished". Things like the switches seemed designed for the life of the bike...measured in hundreds of thousands of miles. The switches on my F800GT seem cheap in comparison. They do the job, but I wouldn't be surprised if one broke tomorrow. I like the way the panels come off the bike. Simple. Functional. But there's no elegance in the way they are mounted. The Honda fairings had no exposed screws...but I do like not having to remember how you unsnapped each part. Obviously, the pluses outweighed the minuses and I bought the BMW and sold the Honda.

I feel like BMW did some awesome engineering to make a wonderfully performing bike. But in their quest to shave a bit of weight here, and some more weight there, they sacrificed the robustness of their product to the point where it doesn't hold up like the competition.

If you were to look at the Honda forum for the bike I had before, you'd see some really dumb threads. They have little to talk about otherwise. Few threads are there about how to fix this or that. It just doesn't break. And multiple owners have well over 100,000 miles in just the few years they've owned the bike (it was only sold in 2010 and 2011 in the USA). One of the owners just turned over 160,000 miles. He doesn't do anything special to the bike either. He gets on it and rides it. Changes the oil, and adjusts the valves at about three times the recommended interval. I'm not even sure he's washed it. On a BMW forum, that would be considered abuse...but that's what the Honda design and quality control can produce. A bike that just keeps going like the Energizer bunny.

As said earlier, I like my F800GT...but if it breaks, I will look to see what other companies have to offer as a replacement. The Kool-aid just doesn't appeal to me.

Chris

The R1200RT is a fun ride, but did not stand up to moderate touring demands. Throw on a passenger of average weight and enough clothes for the weekend, and the clock starts ticking on an inevitable FD failure (stress on the crown bearing) - I was headed for #3 when I traded it in and briefly tried a Victory Cross Country Tour.

That's why for serious distances, I got the Gold Wing. Last long trip I took was just shy of 5,800 miles during 15 days in August heat - not even a burnt out bulb. I rarely made it half that distance on the BMW without something breaking or malfunctioning.

Honda reps I've spoken with at the IMS and Honda engineers here at the race track state that critical components are engineered for 300K miles.

I'm running into numerous owners with impressive mileage and no complaints.

 

[alancoles]

Lots of anecdotal ramblings here. Almost as much as what Consumer Reports tries, but fails, to pass off as a proper product reliability study. For me, the quality of CR's work is far below any motorcycle I've ridden.

Very few likely saw or were even around perhaps when this "jack of all trades - master of none" reviewed sports cars in the 1970's and downgraded the rating of a very nice little mid-engined sports car because it's lack of understeer was considered dangerous and it was too precise and immediate in their lane-change test. Their conclusion was basically that the average near brain-dead driver would have to pay attention to their driving to stay in their own lane because every movement of the wheel actually resulted in a change in direction.

Anyone, who buys a motorcycle based on or just influenced by a Consumer Reports aricle deserves what they get - an appliance!

First, while one can try to make the argument that even though the sample size is small it is still a sample, obviously didn't take the same Statistics courses in university that I did. Your logic here is just as flawed as the CR report is.

Second, this is a study that only included Consumer Reports subscribers, no one else. Just that one item skews the results.

Third, think about what this tells you:

Among those bikes needing repair, 45 percent incurred no expense—suggesting that many riders are performing the work themselves or having the bikes repaired under the original manufacturer’s warranty.

Anyone with a LC R-bike has likely followed the weeping coolant thread and noticed that many people took their bike to the dealer for warranty work on an issue that is, for the most part, a non-issue (a very small % did have actual issues).

Fourth, as has been pointed out, the methodology is extremely flawed. No differentiation between a GPS not showing your music playlist and a blown transmission or engine, or what about placing a difference between the complaints about previous model BMW brake servo whirling sounds versus a brake failure of any kind. This was likely done in order to produce content (their report) at the lowest cost possible. I'm speculating here, but am likely more accurate in doing so than CR was in it's report. The report has little to no credibility.

Think about it for a second, when was the last time you were aware of anyone on any motorcycle having a problem with their brakes not working? It is a very rare occurance if you don't count people not doing proper maintenance.

Over 15% of the repairs were for brakes! That ranked 3rd on the list right behind accessories and electrical system. these 3 items alone accounted for over 52% of all the issues.

Yes there are issues with BMWs, just as there are with other bikes. Absolutely none are 100% reliable and I would doubt that BMW are quite as reliable as the very best for reliability, but that is absolutely not why I have ever bough any of the many bikes that I've bought. If reliability were the yardstick than I would never have had any of the three Nortons I have owned and loved riding (just like the BSA 441, etc.). I would have simply gone out and bought a Honda CB750 and missed out on what makes the Norton an iconic bike with a unique riding experience and would have settled for the CB750 which was far more reliable, but much more mundane. Don't get me wrong, the CB750 is also an iconic bike, but far far less for its riding experience, and much more for bringing performance and reliability to the masses at a low price. I've owned many bikes, Suzuki, BMW, Norton, Ducati, and a Goldwing and enjoyed it, but much prefer my RTW and haven't noticed any difference in reliability. YMMV

Many years ago, I asked an older family friend why he chose to drive Volvos when most of his neighbours appeared to have drunk the Lexus kool-aid. His reply to me was "because they have no soul, I drive a Volvo for the experience and the involvement".

This perhaps more than anything else sums up the majority of long-term dedicated motorcyclists. For some, that feeling comes from a BMW R or K, etc., for others it comes from a Goldwing, or a Harley, or a Ninja. I've never looked at which flavour of ice cream might be healthiest for me and I've never bought a motorcycle based on which was reported to require the fewest accessory repairs.

CR does this report and then caps it off with:

The main takeaway is that no matter which brand you favor or type of motorcycle you buy, squirreling away $400 to cover surprise repairs would be wise. And if you plan to customize your bike, leave the complicated work to the professionals.

Certainly didn't need to do a report to spew out that pablum. Anyone with half a clue could have written that final paragraph without ever having read or seen the report and no one would have been the worse for it.

 

[mikegalbicka]

Lots of good points made but one has been missed which is the one I think is important. The real truth has given way in this day and age to perceived truth, which can be very individual. Though I am a firm believer that truth is truth by its very definition that is not the world we live in now as evidenced by the rise in our ad driven culture. Articles like this do affect the perceived truth of many which does affect sales which does affect R&D which does affect quality and round and round we go and where we stop nobody knows. YMMV.

 

[motodan]

Lots of anecdotal ramblings here. Almost as much as what Consumer Reports tries, but fails, to pass off as a proper product reliability study. For me, the quality of CR's work is far below any motorcycle I've ridden.

Very few likely saw or were even around perhaps when this "jack of all trades - master of none" reviewed sports cars in the 1970's and downgraded the rating of a very nice little mid-engined sports car because it's lack of understeer was considered dangerous and it was too precise and immediate in their lane-change test. Their conclusion was basically that the average near brain-dead driver would have to pay attention to their driving to stay in their own lane because every movement of the wheel actually resulted in a change in direction.

Anyone, who buys a motorcycle based on or just influenced by a Consumer Reports aricle deserves what they get - an appliance!

First, while one can try to make the argument that even though the sample size is small it is still a sample, obviously didn't take the same Statistics courses in university that I did. Your logic here is just as flawed as the CR report is.

Second, this is a study that only included Consumer Reports subscribers, no one else. Just that one item skews the results.

Third, think about what this tells you: Anyone with a LC R-bike has likely followed the weeping coolant thread and noticed that many people took their bike to the dealer for warranty work on an issue that is, for the most part, a non-issue (a very small % did have actual issues).

Fourth, as has been pointed out, the methodology is extremely flawed. No differentiation between a GPS not showing your music playlist and a blown transmission or engine, or what about placing a difference between the complaints about previous model BMW brake servo whirling sounds versus a brake failure of any kind. This was likely done in order to produce content (their report) at the lowest cost possible. I'm speculating here, but am likely more accurate in doing so than CR was in it's report. The report has little to no credibility.

Think about it for a second, when was the last time you were aware of anyone on any motorcycle having a problem with their brakes not working? It is a very rare occurance if you don't count people not doing proper maintenance.

Over 15% of the repairs were for brakes! That ranked 3rd on the list right behind accessories and electrical system. these 3 items alone accounted for over 52% of all the issues.

Yes there are issues with BMWs, just as there are with other bikes. Absolutely none are 100% reliable and I would doubt that BMW are quite as reliable as the very best for reliability, but that is absolutely not why I have ever bough any of the many bikes that I've bought. If reliability were the yardstick than I would never have had any of the three Nortons I have owned and loved riding (just like the BSA 441, etc.). I would have simply gone out and bought a Honda CB750 and missed out on what makes the Norton an iconic bike with a unique riding experience and would have settled for the CB750 which was far more reliable, but much more mundane. Don't get me wrong, the CB750 is also an iconic bike, but far far less for its riding experience, and much more for bringing performance and reliability to the masses at a low price. I've owned many bikes, Suzuki, BMW, Norton, Ducati, and a Goldwing and enjoyed it, but much prefer my RTW and haven't noticed any difference in reliability. YMMV

Many years ago, I asked an older family friend why he chose to drive Volvos when most of his neighbours appeared to have drunk the Lexus kool-aid. His reply to me was "because they have no soul, I drive a Volvo for the experience and the involvement".

This perhaps more than anything else sums up the majority of long-term dedicated motorcyclists. For some, that feeling comes from a BMW R or K, etc., for others it comes from a Goldwing, or a Harley, or a Ninja. I've never looked at which flavour of ice cream might be healthiest for me and I've never bought a motorcycle based on which was reported to require the fewest accessory repairs.

CR does this report and then caps it off with: Certainly didn't need to do a report to spew out that pablum. Anyone with half a clue could have written that final paragraph without ever having read or seen the report and no one would have been the worse for it.

Is there a reliability survey where BMW motorcycles come in among top three or five? As skewed as some think any such survey might be, doesn't it seem slightly dismal for BMW, that they represent less than 2% of a market (certainly fewer customers to complain), but next to highest rank in those filing complaints? Just another aspect of all these ramblings.

 

[flhfxd]

I think the answer to this question is: Honda.

 

[aimless1]

Is there a reliability survey where BMW motorcycles come in among top three or five? As skewed as some think any such survey might be, doesn't it seem slightly dismal for BMW, that they represent less than 2% of a market (certainly fewer customers to complain), but next to highest rank in those filing complaints? Just another aspect of all these ramblings.

Not necessarily. it is possible that BMW owners are more likely to whine than owners of other brands.

One of my unscientific questions for my clients is how they like their new car. Almost all do. Then I ask if they have had any issues? Almost none have. Then I ask if it has been in for warranty repairs and that is when I hear about the problems. In other words, how questions are asked matter and how the survey respondent interprets the question matters. It is difficult to put together a survey that generates credible data.

 

[easy]

Not necessarily. it is possible that BMW owners are more likely to whine than owners of other brands.

One of my unscientific questions for my clients is how they like their new car. Almost all do. Then I ask if they have had any issues? Almost none have. Then I ask if it has been in for warranty repairs and that is when I hear about the problems. In other words, how questions are asked matter and how the survey respondent interprets the question matters. It is difficult to put together a survey that generates credible data.

But you see, it's not considered whining when you've sat on the stranded in west Texas with no final drive, or have had a boot drenched in gasoline from a faulty gas pump. Try it sometime and then tell me it's whining. It is just a truth that some don't want to hear.

E.

 

[aimless1]

But you see, it's not considered whining when you've sat on the stranded in west Texas with no final drive, or have had a boot drenched in gasoline from a faulty gas pump. Try it sometime and then tell me it's whining. It is just a truth that some don't want to hear.

E.

I think you missed the point. Not questioning your personal experience. Try getting stranded 10 miles off the nearest road. Been there, lived that.

I neither said you were complaining nor that BMW owners are whiners. Just pointing out that in terms of survey respondents BMW owners may be more likely to complain/whine than owners of other vehicles. Of course, they are not likely to be worse or better, but we don't know that.

 

[easy]

I think you missed the point. Not questioning your personal experience. Try getting stranded 10 miles off the nearest road. Been there, lived that.

I neither said you were complaining nor that BMW owners are whiners. Just pointing out that in terms of survey respondents BMW owners may be more likely to complain/whine than owners of other vehicles. Of course, they are not likely to be worse or better, but we don't know that.

Point well made.

E.

 

[daboo]

...Just pointing out that in terms of survey respondents BMW owners may be more likely to complain/whine than owners of other vehicles. Of course, they are not likely to be worse or better, but we don't know that.

Sorry. I don't believe that for a second. To me, it is just rationalization. Like saying 10,000 respondents to a survey are not a proper sample size.

I've learned that when considering a new bike, to look at the forum for it. Don't ask the question, "would you recommend XXXX bike" on the forum for it. Simply look at what things they change immediately. You can call it "farkles", or perhaps a better phrase might be, "what do I have to change to make this bike livable?" And also what kinds of issues do owners have? What kind of things are they asking for help with...and how frequently that subject comes up.

Maybe I've missed it, but I don't remember where anyone has found the root cause for final drive failures and what BMW has done to stop this on new models. It's almost like the new models have the same issues, and the only thing lacking is the mileage to get to that failure point. That's a feeling I have picked up from watching this forum. And the reliability survey seems to confirm it.

Chris

 

[motodan]

I think you missed the point. Not questioning your personal experience. Try getting stranded 10 miles off the nearest road. Been there, lived that.

I neither said you were complaining nor that BMW owners are whiners. Just pointing out that in terms of survey respondents BMW owners may be more likely to complain/whine than owners of other vehicles. Of course, they are not likely to be worse or better, but we don't know that.

And given BMW's ad pieces: UNSTOPPABLE, Legendary, Ultimate....I believe there's naturally a higher expectation of these machines when it comes to reliability/durability. And not just by ad propaganda alone, but also based on premium dollar spent to obtain that "Ultimate", "Legendary" two-wheeler. Perhaps these items tend to render displeasure more quickly when surveys come about.