Warranty Claim Denied By BMW

[47512]

Don, like you said, debates like the above will never end. Want to start a debate? Just bring up a issue about verious lube oils, or the media filters are made from, on any web site where motor sports are involved, and It will start.
I worked for a oil company for 15 years that made lubricants for both the auto and motorcycle industry, plus industrial lubricants, and private lable projects. I've heard enough BS to write a book. So when oil debates come up at club meetings I keep my mouth shut because people have formed their own opinions through advertizing nonsense and other media, and It's just not worth the time to debate the subject. Lubricant failures are rare nowdays, nobody likes liability suites, it cost too much money. Use the product the mfg. recomends, then there no issues if a warranty probblem comes up. Trying to save a few bucks on a oil filter after spending 15 to 20 thousand on a motorcycle sounds like poor economy to me.

Ken G.

 

[kbasa]

This is a very serious issue pertaining to BMW declining a warranty item due to the use of non-BMW specific parts... Please review and take heed:


http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=425367#Post425367

But he saved $14!

 

[kbasa]

I traded a '96 Rt on a new '07 RT last year. In making my trade for the RT that I really love to ride I might add...My battery charger was no longer able to be plugged into my power port, my oil filter wrench for the '06 no longer worked as well. Now I buy the '07 and I need a filter wrench anywhere between $25 and $60 depending where you buy one. I was supposed to buy a new Canbus battery charger but the BMW store mechanic told me to hook up right to the battery with the battery tender plug to save some bucks. Now all the oil filter wrenches around 5-60 bucks for the new RT also. What gives with BMW??

I had to buy new tools to work on my /2, my airhead, my Kbikes, my VFR, my oilhead and, finally, my hexhead. Oil filter wrenches, swingarm pivot wrenches, exhaust nut wrenches, hex driver, allen wrenches, you name it.

Why would you expect them to keep using the same technology for every version of their bikes? They haven't in the past.

 

[MPGOLIGHTLY]

Thats also true in Aviation, Anyone out there that has an association with aviation whether pilot or A&P knows that the correct specified parts and or fluids must be used per the oem recommendations, and with the blessing of the FAA. Period. Because if their not, it won't be a warranty claim, it becomes a criminal matter subject to prosecution.

Of course aviation is little more extreme than the issue here of using the non-recommended oils, filters and other parts not meeting OEM specs for BMW bikes where just the warranty is denied.

The point is the same. Use OEM recommended parts and fluids no matter what and if it breaks under warranty, it makes it hard for the manufacturer to deny the claim.

BMW goes to great lengths to engineer every part on their machines. Even right down to the little screws that hold the fairing's on have a torque value. They are published in the owners manual.

I do have a question, if I understand my owners manual right, I may have misread this, but, I was under the impression that synthetic oils were not approved for the boxer. I have an 08 R1200 GS which I love to ride dearly. Of course this may be a moot question as I don't intend on changing the oil in it myself, I am quite content letting the dealer do it. Anyone know for sure?
Its not quite the same as changing the oil in my Honda VTX which I will do myself, only because the dealer is usually can not get to it . I still buy the Honda oil and filters for it.
Thanks
mark

 

[47512]

My R12R owners manual recomends you don't use synthetics for the first 6,000 miles. Oil mfg,s. say nonsense, I use to work for one, they, BMW probably feels the rings have had a chance to seat by then. The twins do consume alittle oil when new. Many new cars come factory filled with synthetic oil.

Ken G.

 

[osbornk]

Are the motorcycle engines run in like at least some of the BMW car engines are? I toured the Spartinburg plant a few years ago when they were making the Z3 and the last step was the run in. The ran the car on rollers at considerably over 100 MPH for several minutes before it left the assembly line. That gave them the oportunity to check for vibrations and the proper functioning of the entire powertrain. After they left the little glass room at the end of the assembly line, they should not need breaking in unless it was for the brakes.

 

[marchyman]

Look at about the 1:04 mark in this video to get a hint of what is done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZGTiJxtZCU

// marc

 

[GradGS]

I use BMW oil filters but Castrol Syntec for my oil. I believe the owners manual even says that BMW "recommends Castrol oil" for the GS. Can anybody see any problem with me not using the BMW oil in my bike?

 

[deilenberger]

I use BMW oil filters but Castrol Syntec for my oil. I believe the owners manual even says that BMW "recommends Castrol oil" for the GS. Can anybody see any problem with me not using the BMW oil in my bike?

I can see BMW having a problem with you using Syntec under warranty. Unless the Syntec meets BMW's oil specifications (which are rather specific, and limit you to some motorcycle specific oils - SG/SH rated) - you are voiding BMW's warranty on oil lubricated parts by using it.

That doesn't mean the Syntec will cause problems for you - but in this application - while under warranty*, I personally use BMW's oil since then there is no possibility of them denying warranty because of the oil I use.

* once out of warranty - about another 10 months or less at the rate I'm going - I have 4 gallons of Mobil-1 15W-50 waiting to be used. I have used this oil in other BMW motorcycles I've owned and had the oil analyzed after 6,000 miles, and it was still protecting the engine just fine, and no traces of excessive wear was observed in the oil analysis.

 

[markgoodrich]

I can see BMW having a problem with you using Syntec under warranty. Unless the Syntec meets BMW's oil specifications (which are rather specific, and limit you to some motorcycle specific oils - SG/SH rated) - you are voiding BMW's warranty on oil lubricated parts by using it.

That doesn't mean the Syntec will cause problems for you - but in this application - while under warranty*, I personally use BMW's oil since then there is no possibility of them denying warranty because of the oil I use.

* once out of warranty - about another 10 months or less at the rate I'm going - I have 4 gallons of Mobil-1 15W-50 waiting to be used. I have used this oil in other BMW motorcycles I've owned and had the oil analyzed after 6,000 miles, and it was still protecting the engine just fine, and no traces of excessive wear was observed in the oil analysis.

Don, I'm confused by your comment regarding "motorcycle-specific" oil being required to maintain the warranty. My '06 RT owners manual states in its entirety:

"Engine oils of the API classification SF or better. Engine oils of the ACEA classification A2 or better. BMW Motorrad recommends not using synthetic oils fo rthe first 6,000 miles (10,000 km). Ask your BMW motorcycle retailer for engine oils suitable for your motorcycle." [Note there is no reference to "motorcycle-specific" oil].

Presumably the term "better" means a higher letter grade than SF, e.g. SG, SH, etc.

Interestingly, it appears the recommended oil grades are what might be considered "legacy" grades, as they were formulated for earlier engine designs (apparently SF was specified in 1981). In fact, while trying to figure out what ACEA A2 is, I found this statement alleged to be a quote from ACEA:

"ACEA Sequences 2004 Rev 1 Dated 28.09.06 ÔÇ£ The categories A2 and B2 are not included in this edition of the ACEA European Oil Sequences because they are unsuitable for some of the current engines and will be unsuitable for many future engines. Misuse may cause engine damage. However, the use of A2/B2 oils for older engines (where owner's or workshop's literature recommends this use) is still appropriate and can be done according to the categories A2-96 Issue 3 and B2-98-Issue 2.ÔÇØ

According to another site, the current minimum standard for "all new engine warranties reguire a minimum SH specification [link attached at end of post]."

The current "best" as in "better" oil standard is SM.

Assuming my manual is correct, one conclusion is that BMW's engineers are saying "Das Dudes, use ze oil you wish, as zey are all zufficient for ze workings uf ze precsion engine of ze motorrad."

Or one could conclude there is a misprint in the manual.

Or one could conclude I am an expert, which would be foolhardy in the extreme, as I am only an expert in using the Intergoogle and the copy-paste function.

Here is the link to the statement regarding SH and warranties:

http://www.burtonpower.com/technical_1/oil_technical_talk.aspx

 

[bikerfish1100]

Presumably the term "better" means a higher letter grade than SF, e.g. SG, SH, etc.

]

and THAT presumption would lead to an incorrect conclusion. higher letter = newer, and newer = fewer zinc, moly, phosphorus additives, which = less protection for our engines.
motorcycle specific oils, tho not specifically mentioned, will (should?) have the additives package that we want/need.

 

[markgoodrich]

and THAT presumption would lead to an incorrect conclusion. higher letter = newer, and newer = fewer zinc, moly, phosphorus additives, which = less protection for our engines.
motorcycle specific oils, tho not specifically mentioned, will (should?) have the additives package that we want/need.

I'm hoping not to get into a gigantic argument regarding my opinion versus others', and I understand your comment; however, everything I've ever read about the API specs clearly states that succeeding generations are 100% backward compatible. What other conclusion can one arrive at regarding the words "or better" in this context, than that BMW recommends any oil which meets the SF standard...and any oil with a letter further down the alphabet meets the standard ?

 

[bikerfish1100]

you're making a presumptive definition of "better". i would not do that.
I've sat in on enough presentations by oil guys (reps from Spectro) to know to avoid newer spec'd oils, as well as why to avoid them.
there are plenty enough viable oil choices to not have to piss in the wind on this issue, so why would you choose to? because of how you want to define "better"? not me buddy, i'm sticking with what i know is good. ymmv.

 

[pglaves]

I'm hoping not to get into a gigantic argument regarding my opinion versus others', and I understand your comment; however, everything I've ever read about the API specs clearly states that succeeding generations are 100% backward compatible. What other conclusion can one arrive at regarding the words "or better" in this context, than that BMW recommends any oil which meets the SF standard...and any oil with a letter further down the alphabet meets the standard ?

When the controversy first began, BMW and the API distinctly and openly disagreed. API said SJ oil is "better" than all prior ratings, and BMW said use "only SG or SH" rated oils because the SJ has reduced anti-wear additives (ZDDP specifically) and is not sufficient.

There were millions of words written on the topic.

You can all reach your own conclusions as to whether you want to agree with what BMW said regarding reduced anti-wear additives, or what the API said the car makers wanted, to protect catalytic converters for the US required 5 or 7 year emissions warranty.

I use only SG or SH rated oils. Castrol 4t Four Stroke Motorcycle Oil to be specific. Available on the shelf at Autozone and O'Reilly that I know of. You all can believe whomever you wish to believe, but I don't think API has warranted your engine.

 

[rglassma]

When the controversy first began, BMW and the API distinctly and openly disagreed. API said SJ oil is "better" than all prior ratings, and BMW said use "only SG or SH" rated oils because the SJ has reduced anti-wear additives (ZDDP specifically) and is not sufficient.

There were millions of words written on the topic.

You can all reach your own conclusions as to whether you want to agree with what BMW said regarding reduced anti-wear additives, or what the API said the car makers wanted, to protect catalytic converters for the US required 5 or 7 year emissions warranty.

I use only SG or SH rated oils. Castrol 4t Four Stroke Motorcycle Oil to be specific. Available on the shelf at Autozone and O'Reilly that I know of. You all can believe whomever you wish to believe, but I don't think API has warranted your engine.

That is exactly what I use on my '05 RT as well... Good stuff and some of the most reasonably priced oil available.

 

[TourNut]

Those who want to go back to Honda , or possibly other Japanese brands:
I switched from Honda in favor of BMW this year.
The last 2 Hondas I bought new, 1991 GoldWing 1500SE and 2005 Shadow Aero 750, BOTH had wheel corrosion issues;
The road bikes with cast aluminum wheels have NO protection on them since 1988 - Raw aluminum , not anodized, not clear coated, suseptable to water and other road chemicals , even brake pad dust !

Second experience: brand new Shadow with warranty, again corrosion , on "chrome" wire wheel spokes , less than 6 months old , bought July 10 ,'05 , 2K miles , went thru 1 slight rain. Honda wouldn't cover it !
Honda before 1988 anodized their cast aluminum wheels , no problems back then if you waxed or Armor-Alled them . The wire wheels now have only cheap cadmium plating instead of real chrome plating.

It is sickening and aggravating to see your wheels corrode and whatever you do to try to keep it from happening doesn't work anymore on these new crap but expensive Honda wheels !

pay the money for BMW oil and filters on your Beemers, It can be worse!

 

[Semper_Fi]

Look at about the 1:04 mark in this video to get a hint of what is done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZGTiJxtZCU

// marc

very cool.

I liked the covered up paint robots and the industrial size shrink wrap machine.

As for oil and filter - BMW OEM - ymmv

 

[Brian-NC]

Japanese sport tourers

Bmw needs to take a look behind them. They're are really good bikes out there that will give you years of reliable, sport touring. The very capable, Yamaha FJR1300 comes to mind and can be had for about 13-14K brand new.

Don't get me wrong. I have been satisfied with my 02 LT but when it's time to trade out, I will look at the 3 big Asian companies. I have been a BMW fan for many years but if the quality of workmanship and customer service doesn't improve, I might be riding someting else. For years now, rear drive failures have plauged the marque and as best I can tell, BMW just won't admit to a flawed part and make it right. So far, they seem to just ignore the consumer and come up with lame excuses and proclaim the problem being caused by the rider.

 

[deilenberger]

Don, I'm confused by your comment regarding "motorcycle-specific" oil being required to maintain the warranty. My '06 RT owners manual states in its entirety:

I'm snipping the rest because it really doesn't apply to what I said.

I want to make it very clear - I will NOT tell you what oil to use. You can use whatever you like in your bike. All I'm telling you is what I *DO*.

And in this case responding to the original posters question on BMW perhaps having a problem with him using a non-motorcycle rated oil in his bike while under warranty. As Paul pointed out - there is a memo from BMW that specifies no oil with a rating newer than SH-SG be used in BMW engines. BMW oils have an SG-SH rating. I know of no oils generally available on the market at the present time that are SG/SH rated (and not SJ or newer) that are not motorcycle specific oils... hence my comment about moto-specific oils.

If you go back to the beginning of this thread, you'll see it started because BMW is denying warranty coverage based on the oil filter used on a bike. The filter manufacturer did not specifically include the 1200 series engines as ones the filter is to be used for - therefore BMW questions the use of it and denies warranty. They have also been known to question people on what oil they were using when an engine warranty claim is presented. It is within their rights to do so - and probably considered good business practice to do so.

Lots is going on with the original topic of this thread (warranty denial) - and you never know - BMW may change their mind, or someone might find an attorney hungry enough to try filing suit against BMW under the Moss-Magnuson act. The warranty may be reinstated. All of that would be a wonderful outcome..

BUT - all of that aggravation could have been avoided if the original chap with the warranty claim (and he admits he is at fault by not using the "correct" filter) used the parts specified by BMW. He saved about $15 by not using it. That savings is costing him many times that amount. I rather suspect if you asked him at this point - he'd suggest exactly what I'm doing.

I don't want to debate warranty coverage with BMW. I don't want to have it become a forum topic. I don't want to have to threaten to sue them. I don't want my bike to become part of a crusade. I avoid all of this by buying BMW parts from the BMW dealer for service I do on the bike under warranty. This way there can be no question, no debate on if the parts/oil meet their specifications. That's what I do under warranty.

As I have said before - do whatever you feel like. It's your life, your bike, your warranty. I have things I consider more important I'd rather spend my time on - like riding my bike.

YMMV and I'm sure it will.

Best,

 

[108625]

As I have said before - do whatever you feel like. It's your life, your bike, your warranty. I have things I consider more important I'd rather spend my time on - like riding my bike.

Gee Don,

You wouldn't rather spend it cutting oil filters open to examine their similarities, or compressing bypass valve springs in a vice?

Like I mentioned earlier, some folks don't have their priorities straight.