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Very well done video on reasons for Gearing Up
- Thread starter REDC650GT
- Start date
Must be because I am old, or am already convinced to wear ATGATT, but those videos (plural) don't speak to me. Check out the subsequent videos - like "5 ways to avoid cops." Not too impressed with the ideas or use of the "F" word in every sentence. I'm sure there are far better videos that cover these topics.
My best guess is that EVERYONE on this forum - and other forums - has made up his/her mind on how much gear they want to wear to protect their bodies from heat/cold/rain/crashes. They may be open to better ideas in the "gear" forums for better ideas on what they already wear, but I don't think ANYTHING changes peoples minds about whether to go ATGATT or something less, or much less. That is either a personal decision, meaning "I won't crash, and I only ride when the weather is comfortable," or we want to fit in with our friends. I don't think the BMW riders I've ridden with (mostly ATGATT) are smarter than many HD pirates in minimal gear. We certainly like to think we are, but I believe social pressure is the MAIN reason BMW riders have better protective gear than HD riders, on average.
Yes, I am saying that most of us are sheep, who want to look like the rest of the herd. Me too. Just glad I first hooked up with the BMW herd.
My best guess is that EVERYONE on this forum - and other forums - has made up his/her mind on how much gear they want to wear to protect their bodies from heat/cold/rain/crashes. They may be open to better ideas in the "gear" forums for better ideas on what they already wear, but I don't think ANYTHING changes peoples minds about whether to go ATGATT or something less, or much less. That is either a personal decision, meaning "I won't crash, and I only ride when the weather is comfortable," or we want to fit in with our friends. I don't think the BMW riders I've ridden with (mostly ATGATT) are smarter than many HD pirates in minimal gear. We certainly like to think we are, but I believe social pressure is the MAIN reason BMW riders have better protective gear than HD riders, on average.
Yes, I am saying that most of us are sheep, who want to look like the rest of the herd. Me too. Just glad I first hooked up with the BMW herd.
The subsequent videos I was shown aren't made by the same people...which is probably why you weren't impressed.
I wouldn't be either.Chris
I think I'm missing something here. I understand the first part. I don't have the hard shell armour, but I do wear an air bag vest. But you can also find things like gloves a lot cheaper if you shop around. I have a pair of Icon gauntlet gloves for summer wear that I picked up for $59 because they were on closeout; original price was around your $200 price point. Nice gloves with great protection. Just last year's model.
Chris
patiodadio
Motorcyclist
I have a mix of expensive and cheaper gear. Schuberth helmet $$$$, joe rocket jacket $$$ for cold weather, Fulmer mesh jacket for hot weather $, vented leather moto gloves $, BMW pants $$$ and so on. If I had the money and could loose the weight I would wear a full set of leathers. I just try to do the best I can with the resources I have.
I would wear a full set of leathers. I just try to do the best I can with the resources I have.
88bmwjeff
SF Bay Area
While I liked the video, it seemed more like a what to look for in gear rather than why someone should wear gear. The best site/video I saw was on rockthegear.org. It's about a woman's experience falling off the rear of a bike (she was the passenger) and her recovery. She does does ride now.
http://www.rockthegear.org/
http://www.rockthegear.org/
I read her story when it originally came out. There's a link to that story on the web page too. Do a search on road rash, and the pictures will turn your stomach...or at least they do mine. There was a web site I saw years ago titled "Live to Ride, Ride to Die". I almost took a taxi home that night. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I understand where you're coming from and what you're saying the video left out. But it is easy enough to find. What's harder, is finding out what to look for once you've seen those videos.
Under some definitions, I wear ATGATT. But lkchris had a good point. If you want to consider yourself wearing All The Gear All The Time...take at look at the gear the racers wear. Neck braces. Chest and back armour. Racing leathers. Upgraded CE armour. And even that won't stop them from killing themselves or breaking bones. But it does give you an idea of the direction you might want to take in buying your gear.
When I started commuting year around on my 70 mile commute, I kept track of how much money I saved on gas. When gas was $3-4 a gallon, the savings added up quickly. My bike at the time was giving me about 65 mpg and the car about 15. I realized as I was looking at the column on how much I'd saved, that I could easily pay for a good quality jacket in about three weeks in the gas savings. It took awhile to get out of the idea that I had to pinch pennies though. Now, I just look at the gear and buy what is a good value in the gear and what will last. And like in the case of the airbag vest...how much will I spend in the first day in the hospital?
The ironic thing is that if you are really concerned with buying good quality gear for protection in an accident...you probably aren't the type who will get in an accident. And if the thought never crosses your mind that you might be hurt in an accident...you'll probably go down in your t-shirt and blue jeans.
But accidents can and do happen to good riders too. I have a friend who does a lot of long distance riding. He has a reputation for being a safe rider. But the deer that jumped out in front of him didn't consider that. He kept the bike up, but fractured his left hand in four places. He was lucky.
Chris
Under some definitions, I wear ATGATT. But lkchris had a good point. If you want to consider yourself wearing All The Gear All The Time...take at look at the gear the racers wear. Neck braces. Chest and back armour. Racing leathers. Upgraded CE armour. And even that won't stop them from killing themselves or breaking bones. But it does give you an idea of the direction you might want to take in buying your gear.
When I started commuting year around on my 70 mile commute, I kept track of how much money I saved on gas. When gas was $3-4 a gallon, the savings added up quickly. My bike at the time was giving me about 65 mpg and the car about 15. I realized as I was looking at the column on how much I'd saved, that I could easily pay for a good quality jacket in about three weeks in the gas savings. It took awhile to get out of the idea that I had to pinch pennies though. Now, I just look at the gear and buy what is a good value in the gear and what will last. And like in the case of the airbag vest...how much will I spend in the first day in the hospital?
The ironic thing is that if you are really concerned with buying good quality gear for protection in an accident...you probably aren't the type who will get in an accident. And if the thought never crosses your mind that you might be hurt in an accident...you'll probably go down in your t-shirt and blue jeans.
But accidents can and do happen to good riders too. I have a friend who does a lot of long distance riding. He has a reputation for being a safe rider. But the deer that jumped out in front of him didn't consider that. He kept the bike up, but fractured his left hand in four places. He was lucky.
Chris
Always fun to read/view various opinions on this topic.
Price points is a strange way to decide what's safe enough for the style of riding one does
We have many brands of gear to choose from and feel as safe in one as the other...I concentrate on enjoying riding, thinking on how to avoid having to test the gear than worrying about if my thread count or price of my gloves is going to be enough protection. Kind of takes some of the enjoyment out of the equation.
Here's one that I can agree with:
http://www.logofwastedtime.com/2011/09/agatt-please-enough-already.html
Price points is a strange way to decide what's safe enough for the style of riding one does
We have many brands of gear to choose from and feel as safe in one as the other...I concentrate on enjoying riding, thinking on how to avoid having to test the gear than worrying about if my thread count or price of my gloves is going to be enough protection. Kind of takes some of the enjoyment out of the equation.
Here's one that I can agree with:
http://www.logofwastedtime.com/2011/09/agatt-please-enough-already.html
When I'm gearing up........and I drop something.........and have to get half undressed to pick it back up- I think of the immortal words of Frank Horrigan. 
http://www.hark.com/clips/sydqlgdwzb-damn-i-gotta-put-all-that-****-back-on-goddamnit
OM
http://www.hark.com/clips/sydqlgdwzb-damn-i-gotta-put-all-that-****-back-on-goddamnit
OM
mikesved
New member
I have always looked at gear through the eyes of my profession, if I can. I have been on enough motorcycle wrecks that I have seen what gear can and cannot do. I have seen helmets do exactly what they are designed to do...keep your head intact....though that does gives little consideration when said helmet has been separated from the rest of the rider. Me, personally, and that is what gear is, a personal choice, I choose the amount of gear based on the amount of risk I am willing to take. After that, I then ask myself what I would require one my daughters to wear if they were on the bike with me. I then wear the exact same thing. After 17 years as a Paramedic and Critical Care Paramedic I have been on a few incidents with all kinds of motorcycles. There are a few things that have not gone unnoticed over the years. Gear does save skin and has a few lives, especially full face helmets. Another, alcohol is also a life saver...per say. Too many accidents the operator of the bike survived and the rider and or someone else did not. Any LEO or other EMS/Fire individuals here may have had similar experiences. The ones that survive are usually the drunk ones.
When I was able to finally get my first bike, I choose BMW for many reasons. The quality of the product, their reputation and also the community associated with it. BMW/Sport/Adventure Touring riders, we tend to look at safety and have discussions like these frequently. From where I sit and what I do, when you talk about safety, safety tends to be in the forefront. I wanted to be part of a group that encourages wearing of protective gear, whether it ATGATT, Helmet, Jackets and gloves or any combination there in. Just to discuss the pros and cons of ATGATT etc. allows a base of knowledge about safety to exist. I have on more than one occasion had my eldest daughter (who once she turns 18 would like her own bike) to read through these and other forums. To see what others think and have experienced allows her to start to think critically about a critical subject. I am OK with being a sheep in this regards and will continue to be one by this particular logic.
In the end, and as a few others have stated, we as riders "should" dress to the level of risk we are willing to accept. I would also add, that those of us that are parents/grandparents, uncles, aunts etc that have others in our lives that are younger, we need to dress to the level of risk WE are willing to ACCEPT for them. We are their examples when the day comes for them to saddle up. Again, I am biased and that is due to real life experiences I have been a party to.
Sorry to have droned on everyone
Mike
When I was able to finally get my first bike, I choose BMW for many reasons. The quality of the product, their reputation and also the community associated with it. BMW/Sport/Adventure Touring riders, we tend to look at safety and have discussions like these frequently. From where I sit and what I do, when you talk about safety, safety tends to be in the forefront. I wanted to be part of a group that encourages wearing of protective gear, whether it ATGATT, Helmet, Jackets and gloves or any combination there in. Just to discuss the pros and cons of ATGATT etc. allows a base of knowledge about safety to exist. I have on more than one occasion had my eldest daughter (who once she turns 18 would like her own bike) to read through these and other forums. To see what others think and have experienced allows her to start to think critically about a critical subject. I am OK with being a sheep in this regards and will continue to be one by this particular logic.
In the end, and as a few others have stated, we as riders "should" dress to the level of risk we are willing to accept. I would also add, that those of us that are parents/grandparents, uncles, aunts etc that have others in our lives that are younger, we need to dress to the level of risk WE are willing to ACCEPT for them. We are their examples when the day comes for them to saddle up. Again, I am biased and that is due to real life experiences I have been a party to.
Sorry to have droned on everyone
Mike
Mikesved, welcome to the forum. Your profession certainly gives you a better view of gear, what it does and doesn't do, than most of us know from reading and, hopefully, NOT experience.
Are you really saying that drunk RIDERS are more likely to survive a crash than sober riders? (Guess there is no question that they are more likely to HAVE a crash.) That doesn't square with stuff I have read which indicates drunk riders are more likely to collide with immoveable objects at higher speeds than their sober but over-exuberant friends.
Think you referenced my earlier comment that most of us are "sheep." For sure, there a few Harley/Goldwing riders who wear all the gear when the group they are riding with don't. And there are a few BMW riders who wear very minimal gear when riding with that herd. Either way, these people stand out - usually as a minority of one.
Good point about thinking of all the people in your life who will be affected if you crash your motorcycle. Seems to me, the least we can do for those people is to wear protective gear and ride in a sane fashion.
Are you really saying that drunk RIDERS are more likely to survive a crash than sober riders? (Guess there is no question that they are more likely to HAVE a crash.) That doesn't square with stuff I have read which indicates drunk riders are more likely to collide with immoveable objects at higher speeds than their sober but over-exuberant friends.
Think you referenced my earlier comment that most of us are "sheep." For sure, there a few Harley/Goldwing riders who wear all the gear when the group they are riding with don't. And there are a few BMW riders who wear very minimal gear when riding with that herd. Either way, these people stand out - usually as a minority of one.
Good point about thinking of all the people in your life who will be affected if you crash your motorcycle. Seems to me, the least we can do for those people is to wear protective gear and ride in a sane fashion.
Just wanted to reply to the reference in the above post. The most important function of gear is to keep you comfortable. If you are too hot, cold, drenched in rain, have a fogged up visor, YOU ARE IN DANGER. Good gear can keep you cool enough, warm enough, dry, and able to see. Not likely a leather suit that racers wear will do that. There are MANY options that do all of the above while providing a lot of protection in a get-off. Comfort and serious protection from a crash are quite possible. Do the research.Always fun to read/view various opinions on this topic.
Price points is a strange way to decide what's safe enough for the style of riding one does
We have many brands of gear to choose from and feel as safe in one as the other...I concentrate on enjoying riding, thinking on how to avoid having to test the gear than worrying about if my thread count or price of my gloves is going to be enough protection. Kind of takes some of the enjoyment out of the equation.
Here's one that I can agree with:
http://www.logofwastedtime.com/2011/09/agatt-please-enough-already.html
mikesved
New member
BC:
I am not saying that statistically drunk riders survive more often than sober. My experiences, for me personally, three drunk riders, two fatal passengers and only one of the riders died secondary to head trauma after taking on a drain pipe, without a helmet at high speeds. Out of the other two examples, both the riders survived, though heavily scarred and damaged while their passengers were DOA, though both were organ donors so some good came about of those tragedies. Those are just a few examples, others are hilarious...another time maybe. I apologies for not specifying between anecdotal evidence and statistical data. I will say that cutting someone leathers in a zig zag motion and across seams gave some internal satisfaction for a belligerent and drunk rider who was more worried about his bike than his passenger. Though I digress.
I have been think about the commentary about gearing up like MotoGP riders. I understand the concept and logic behind such a statement, though if I may I would like throw a "wrench" into that line of thinking. Should we start to gear up like NASCAR drivers when we drive to work? Have standard five point harnesses, roll cages (though most modern cars do have something to that effect), wear helmets, etc etc etc. As BC stated, comfort associated with protection is where the money is at. I have a very limited bike fund, and like many others I have to choose between good gear, great gear and bike upkeep. Like all things, there are a million different ways to think about this and out it into action. I love the fact that we have these discussions, delve into the depths of them and try to make ourselves better riders and operators. This is where I feel we as BMW riders, and the Sport/Adventure Touring community is markedly different than the rest, and one of the main reasons I decided to join such a community.
Last thing...I promise
BC, I did not take your commentary about "Sheep" as insulting and or inflammatory. We BMW riders do have a certain persona we exude whether we choose to or not. I was working 911 EMS (my part time job) and the subject of the Blue Ridge came up. So obviously I jumped into it. Someone finally asked me, "Mike, you ride?" When I replied "Yes" to said question the immediately shot back, "you must be a BMW or Triumph guy." I have been into our local HD dealer (they also sell Triumph's) to look at some things. I have yet to have a sales rep say hi to me and or approach me (been there six times). I guess I do not look the part. Each community has their idiosyncrasies and some of that is what draws people to them.
Mike
I am not saying that statistically drunk riders survive more often than sober. My experiences, for me personally, three drunk riders, two fatal passengers and only one of the riders died secondary to head trauma after taking on a drain pipe, without a helmet at high speeds. Out of the other two examples, both the riders survived, though heavily scarred and damaged while their passengers were DOA, though both were organ donors so some good came about of those tragedies. Those are just a few examples, others are hilarious...another time maybe. I apologies for not specifying between anecdotal evidence and statistical data. I will say that cutting someone leathers in a zig zag motion and across seams gave some internal satisfaction for a belligerent and drunk rider who was more worried about his bike than his passenger. Though I digress.
I have been think about the commentary about gearing up like MotoGP riders. I understand the concept and logic behind such a statement, though if I may I would like throw a "wrench" into that line of thinking. Should we start to gear up like NASCAR drivers when we drive to work? Have standard five point harnesses, roll cages (though most modern cars do have something to that effect), wear helmets, etc etc etc. As BC stated, comfort associated with protection is where the money is at. I have a very limited bike fund, and like many others I have to choose between good gear, great gear and bike upkeep. Like all things, there are a million different ways to think about this and out it into action. I love the fact that we have these discussions, delve into the depths of them and try to make ourselves better riders and operators. This is where I feel we as BMW riders, and the Sport/Adventure Touring community is markedly different than the rest, and one of the main reasons I decided to join such a community.
Last thing...I promise
BC, I did not take your commentary about "Sheep" as insulting and or inflammatory. We BMW riders do have a certain persona we exude whether we choose to or not. I was working 911 EMS (my part time job) and the subject of the Blue Ridge came up. So obviously I jumped into it. Someone finally asked me, "Mike, you ride?" When I replied "Yes" to said question the immediately shot back, "you must be a BMW or Triumph guy." I have been into our local HD dealer (they also sell Triumph's) to look at some things. I have yet to have a sales rep say hi to me and or approach me (been there six times). I guess I do not look the part. Each community has their idiosyncrasies and some of that is what draws people to them.
Mike
We each determine how much risk we're willing to take based on our experience and how we're "wired." I personally get a little miffed with those who pass judgment on those who don't gear up to the standard they deem appropriate. They seem to forget that, in the eyes of a large number of people, those of us who ride motorcycles are taking an unreasonable risk by simply getting on our scooters. From their perspective, no amount of protective gear mitigates the foolishness of our decision to ride.
So, as long as riders understand the risks they're accepting--and they're not acting in a manner that places others at risk--I can accept their judgment. Personally, I'm an AATGATT (Almost All The Gear All The Time) type of guy:
Always a helmet. Smash your brain and you may not get another chance. And, I've seen enough helmets that have sustained heavy frontal damage to know that I want something that provides frontal protection--a full coverage helmet, or a modular.
Always boots. They're better for riding in every way, and feet and ankles can get pretty mangled in a crash, affecting one's mobility for the rest of their life.
Always gloves. But, this is where I part a bit from the armored/slidered/gauntleted crowd. Realizing that they don't provide as much protection as Ricky Racer gloves, I generally wear elkskin ropers. Yep, I know that I may suffer injuries I wouldn't otherwise, but they're comfortable across a wide range of temperatures and impart a better feel of the controls than others I've tried (and, believe me, I've got a basketful of gloves).
Always an armored jacket. As heavy duty as the anticipated weather allows. But, sometimes I'll go as light as a mesh motorcycle jacket, especially if it's hot and humid.
Always some kind of protective pants. But, after years of enduring a lot of discomfort, I've dialed this back--from leather or armored Cordura, to whatever is most protective yet provides some comfort. Most of my dry weather rides see me wearing armored mesh pants or armored Cordura-reinforced jeans. I know I'm more vulnerable, but at some point it occurred to me that many of my rides were absolutely miserable--I'd finish the day overheated and dehydrated, having been uncomfortably hot for hours. In retrospect, this was stupid, I feel as though I was riding through serious discomfort to make a point . . . to no one.
What it comes down to for me is gearing up to the point where I can still be comfortable during the ride. After somewhere close to a half century of riding, I've reached a point of balance; I no longer dress to meet any other person's expectations, only what I feel makes sense for me.
So, as long as riders understand the risks they're accepting--and they're not acting in a manner that places others at risk--I can accept their judgment. Personally, I'm an AATGATT (Almost All The Gear All The Time) type of guy:
Always a helmet. Smash your brain and you may not get another chance. And, I've seen enough helmets that have sustained heavy frontal damage to know that I want something that provides frontal protection--a full coverage helmet, or a modular.
Always boots. They're better for riding in every way, and feet and ankles can get pretty mangled in a crash, affecting one's mobility for the rest of their life.
Always gloves. But, this is where I part a bit from the armored/slidered/gauntleted crowd. Realizing that they don't provide as much protection as Ricky Racer gloves, I generally wear elkskin ropers. Yep, I know that I may suffer injuries I wouldn't otherwise, but they're comfortable across a wide range of temperatures and impart a better feel of the controls than others I've tried (and, believe me, I've got a basketful of gloves).
Always an armored jacket. As heavy duty as the anticipated weather allows. But, sometimes I'll go as light as a mesh motorcycle jacket, especially if it's hot and humid.
Always some kind of protective pants. But, after years of enduring a lot of discomfort, I've dialed this back--from leather or armored Cordura, to whatever is most protective yet provides some comfort. Most of my dry weather rides see me wearing armored mesh pants or armored Cordura-reinforced jeans. I know I'm more vulnerable, but at some point it occurred to me that many of my rides were absolutely miserable--I'd finish the day overheated and dehydrated, having been uncomfortably hot for hours. In retrospect, this was stupid, I feel as though I was riding through serious discomfort to make a point . . . to no one.
What it comes down to for me is gearing up to the point where I can still be comfortable during the ride. After somewhere close to a half century of riding, I've reached a point of balance; I no longer dress to meet any other person's expectations, only what I feel makes sense for me.
Hey MikeBoom, nice to read some thoughtful comments from people fairly new to the forum.
I THINK I made the point earlier in this thread that good gear keeps you safer BECAUSE it keeps you more comfortable. Your best "safety device" is an unencumbered brain. THAT is what hopefully keeps you from hitting the pavement, a car, or running off the road. Unless they are making a fashion statement or simply cannot afford decent gear, I believe that is the simple fact that so many riders fail to get.
I ride for the pleasure of doing so. Sun burn, being too hot or cold, bugs or rain in the face, do nothing to add to my pleasure. Good gear costs some bucks, takes a little time to don, and some planning based on the weather current and projected. I don't take many short rides for that reason. (Going 5 miles to pick up a few groceries in all that gear just isn't worth it.) So I wear the gear that keeps me comfortable and if, for some reason I crash, hopefully minimizes the damage to my body.
Seems simple to me. I respect that others can make different choices. Have yet to see someone justifying riding in a T-shirt, shorts and flip-flops. Maybe I am not on their forums.
I THINK I made the point earlier in this thread that good gear keeps you safer BECAUSE it keeps you more comfortable. Your best "safety device" is an unencumbered brain. THAT is what hopefully keeps you from hitting the pavement, a car, or running off the road. Unless they are making a fashion statement or simply cannot afford decent gear, I believe that is the simple fact that so many riders fail to get.
I ride for the pleasure of doing so. Sun burn, being too hot or cold, bugs or rain in the face, do nothing to add to my pleasure. Good gear costs some bucks, takes a little time to don, and some planning based on the weather current and projected. I don't take many short rides for that reason. (Going 5 miles to pick up a few groceries in all that gear just isn't worth it.) So I wear the gear that keeps me comfortable and if, for some reason I crash, hopefully minimizes the damage to my body.
Seems simple to me. I respect that others can make different choices. Have yet to see someone justifying riding in a T-shirt, shorts and flip-flops. Maybe I am not on their forums.
