RT Contender

[f14rio]

you can bet that...

...triumph took a look at how BMW final drives were designed and manufactured.

i'm sure bmw and triumph have both done fd failure analysis on final drives.(although bmw doesn't seem to recognize the problem publically).

those reports would be a fun read.

 

[na1g]

With the number of BMW+Triumph dealers, it will be easy to walk across the showroom to comparison shop. With the availability of BMW test rides, I hope Triumph offers the same. It would be great to test ride them back-to-back.

pete

 

[ka5ysy]

see link
http://www.mez.co.uk/lucas.html

I remember it oh so well.....


If you like BMW final drive threads, you will LOVE Lucas electronics !

You will need to purchase the replacement smoke cartridge if you are traveling.

 

[smartin108]

I remember it oh so well.....


If you like BMW final drive threads, you will LOVE Lucas electronics !

You will need to purchase the replacement smoke cartridge if you are traveling.

I have owned 4 of the "new" Triumphs and put a lot of miles on them and can say I had zero problems of any kind with them. They are building a very high quality bike. I love my RT and it's GS predecessor, but I would not be afraid to go back to a Triumph.

 

[classicvw]

+1 on Smartin's comments. I had a newer Triumph that ran flawlessly and gave me zero problems and I was very impressed by the fit/finish, and overall quality.

The 2013 Trophy's 10,000/20,000 mile service intervals are a plus too. It could be a big plus in an agency's decision process if Triumph were to bring out a police version.

 

[easy]

I remember it oh so well.....


If you like BMW final drive threads, you will LOVE Lucas electronics !

You will need to purchase the replacement smoke cartridge if you are traveling.

I remember them well too.

In fact, I can remember my brother back in the 60s working on the Lucas electronics on his Triumph and MG. I remember seeing the volt meter take flight, and hearing him screaming such a thick cloud of profanities that it is probably still lingering somewhere over east Texas. Such are the demons that test a man's soul and cause us to take up bad habits like riding 50 speed bicycles in tight red shorts.

E

 

[limeymike]

I remember it oh so well.....


If you like BMW final drive threads, you will LOVE Lucas electronics !

You will need to purchase the replacement smoke cartridge if you are traveling.

The new Triumph has no connections in anyway with the old company other than the name that the new owner purchased, BUT BMW final drive failures are very recent and very expensive, make sure you have a towing service and a plane ticket if traveling. I remember it oh so well !!!!

 

[SeabeckS]

I have to wonder what kind of heat management that bike will have given the huge port on the side.

Then there is the floppy pannier system:

"The Triumph Dynamic Luggage System helps maintain chassis balance by decoupling the mass from the chassis allowing each pannier to move up to a 5 degree arc therefore optimizing stability and refinement."

As I recall, from what my b-in-law (ex Moto Cop) told me, the early Kawasaki Police bikes were known for their squirrely handling at high speeds...until Kawasaki engineers developed a "floppy mount" for the radio box on the back end. Evidently that solved the problem...

Back on topic...a competitor to the K1600? Hmm, we'll see what the comparison tests say soon.

 

[sloride]

Trophy Brakes

Linked brakes (front
brakes partially activated by rear), ABS (non-switchable).

Don't know about the brakes. I'd have to try them on gravel

 

[limeymike]

Linked brakes (front
brakes partially activated by rear), ABS (non-switchable).

Don't know about the brakes. I'd have to try them on gravel

Why would you judge a sport tourer by how it behaves on gravel?

 

[42906]

I have to wonder what kind of heat management that bike will have given the huge port on the side.

Then there is the floppy pannier system:

"The Triumph Dynamic Luggage System helps maintain chassis balance by decoupling the mass from the chassis allowing each pannier to move up to a 5 degree arc therefore optimizing stability and refinement."

Sounds like the Krauser cases on my last airhead twin, lol.

 

[42906]

Although it looks nice, I'm not big on the extra weight either. I wonder how much weight the water, radiator, hoses, water jackets and fan will add to the new wethead GS, which will not long thereafter be the new wethead RT?

You can bet BMW is not looking at it is just another pretender. I suspect they are taking a very close and serious look. Having had two failures on my RT, I hope they are looking at how the final drive was designed.

G

It isn't the design of the final drive that is causing those failures. It is the design of the engine. Huh?
The original oilhead, the R-1100 had a bore and stroke of 99 X 70.5 mm. The R-1150 was bored out R-1100, sharing the same 70.5 mm stroke but now with a 101 mm bore. The R-1200 is a stroked 1150 and has a bore and stroke of 101 X 73 mm.
Adding 2.5 mm to the stroke compared to previous oilhead engines, and most importantly having to shorten the conrod 2.5 mm, makes the power delivery much more violent. Because of contraints on engine width, the R-1100 engine already had an unfavorable conrod length to stroke ration. With the R-1200 the relationship is even worse. If you were to graph crank speed over time you would see the change from a more sinusoidal form on the R-1100/1150 to a jagged line with distinct peaks and valleys for the R-1200. This is why BMW had to fit the R-1200 engine with a counter balancer, and why the HP models without the balancer are almost as rough as an old Harley Sportster engine. The power delivery from an R-1200 is very harsh and it jackhammers the whole driveline.

Btw, the same is true of the K-1200. If you follow the Flying Brick's evolution, the original K-100 had a bore and stroke of 67 X 70 mm. The K-1100 was made by boring the K-100 out to 70.5 mm. Concurrently BMW replaced the diesel truck pistons used in the K-100 with modern slipper pistons 7 mm shorter than those in the K-100, allowing the use of a 7 mm longer conrod. These are the best of the best K bike engines for smoothness. They baby the driveline too.
For the K-1200 BMW ran out of room in the existing block to increase the bore further so they had to increase the stroke from 70 mm to 75 mm. Because the width of the Flying Brick engine is fixed, the only way to increase the stroke was to shorten the conrod, in this case 5 mm. If you examine a K-1200 engine you will notice the cam drive is a whole lot more robust than what you see on a K-100/K-1100 or K-75. The violence of that engine overwhelmed the original cam drive, necessitating a very heavy duty tensioner and guide rail set up. They also had to rubber mount the engine because it would probably buzz your fillings loose had they mounted it in a normal K-100/K-1100 frame. Those engines also jackhammer drive lines and suffer frequent final drive failures, while earleir K-1100 engined bikes baby their Paralever drives and seem to last forever.
Those last 1200 cc flying bricks also chew up cylinder bores but that is another story.

 

[42906]

Is Triumph using Lucas electrics?

You would be surprised how much modern combat jet electronics are made by Lucas.

 

[42906]

I remember them well too.

In fact, I can remember my brother back in the 60s working on the Lucas electronics on his Triumph and MG. I remember seeing the volt meter take flight, and hearing him screaming such a thick cloud of profanities that it is probably still lingering somewhere over east Texas. Such are the demons that test a man's soul and cause us to take up bad habits like riding 50 speed bicycles in tight red shorts.

E

And airhead BMWs never gave us a lick of problems with diode boards, alternator rotors or receding valve seats. Nope, never, perpetual motion machines.

 

[42906]

Why would you judge a sport tourer by how it behaves on gravel?

Because it will be that one time when you leave pavement for that campground in the woods that all the electronic trickery bites you in the behind and ruins your vacation. I can remember one difficult ride down a steep, loose dirt hill from the official tent spaces at Laguna Seca thanking my good fortune to not have a bike with linked brakes. Using the front brake in that circumstance was an absolute no-no.

 

[sloride]

country roads

Why would you judge a sport tourer by how it behaves on gravel?

I don't live in the city

 

[easy]

It isn't the design of the final drive that is causing those failures. It is the design of the engine. Huh?
The original oilhead, the R-1100 had a bore and stroke of 99 X 70.5 mm. The R-1150 was bored out R-1100, sharing the same 70.5 mm stroke but now with a 101 mm bore. The R-1200 is a stroked 1150 and has a bore and stroke of 101 X 73 mm.
Adding 2.5 mm to the stroke compared to previous oilhead engines, and most importantly having to shorten the conrod 2.5 mm, makes the power delivery much more violent. Because of contraints on engine width, the R-1100 engine already had an unfavorable conrod length to stroke ration. With the R-1200 the relationship is even worse. If you were to graph crank speed over time you would see the change from a more sinusoidal form on the R-1100/1150 to a jagged line with distinct peaks and valleys for the R-1200. This is why BMW had to fit the R-1200 engine with a counter balancer, and why the HP models without the balancer are almost as rough as an old Harley Sportster engine. The power delivery from an R-1200 is very harsh and it jackhammers the whole driveline.

Btw, the same is true of the K-1200. If you follow the Flying Brick's evolution, the original K-100 had a bore and stroke of 67 X 70 mm. The K-1100 was made by boring the K-100 out to 70.5 mm. Concurrently BMW replaced the diesel truck pistons used in the K-100 with modern slipper pistons 7 mm shorter than those in the K-100, allowing the use of a 7 mm longer conrod. These are the best of the best K bike engines for smoothness. They baby the driveline too.
For the K-1200 BMW ran out of room in the existing block to increase the bore further so they had to increase the stroke from 70 mm to 75 mm. Because the width of the Flying Brick engine is fixed, the only way to increase the stroke was to shorten the conrod, in this case 5 mm. If you examine a K-1200 engine you will notice the cam drive is a whole lot more robust than what you see on a K-100/K-1100 or K-75. The violence of that engine overwhelmed the original cam drive, necessitating a very heavy duty tensioner and guide rail set up. They also had to rubber mount the engine because it would probably buzz your fillings loose had they mounted it in a normal K-100/K-1100 frame. Those engines also jackhammer drive lines and suffer frequent final drive failures, while earleir K-1100 engined bikes baby their Paralever drives and seem to last forever.
Those last 1200 cc flying bricks also chew up cylinder bores but that is another story.

I'm not sure what is causing the rear end failures, and I'm not sure BMW does either. If they know they're not telling. I just wanted to point out the difference in weight that water cooling brings to the picture. And that BMW is carefully examining the competition hopefully with an eye on how to improve the final drive.

E.

 

[42906]

I'm not sure what is causing the rear end failures, and I'm not sure BMW does either. If they know they're not telling. I just wanted to point out the difference in weight that water cooling brings to the picture. And that BMW is carefully examining the competition hopefully with an eye on how to improve the final drive.

E.

My info comes from an authoritative friend.

 

[7536]

I have a 2010 RT and am (was?) on the verge of trading for a K16GTL for the smoothness, not the power. That smooth running Triumph tripple just might be worth a look, and prolly $5k cheaper.

 

[easy]

RT bandwagon - GS bandwagon...It seems like everyone is getting on a bandwagon.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5uFkpsyfV4
(A mixture of two different catagories BMW and BMW, with a leftover V4 engine.)

E