Gas < Are they CRAZY

[monkeywork]

I DO love conspiracy theories! They make for great movies.

The liberty is not a wrangler. That engine is offered in Wranglers all around the world except North America.

You can't buy one, you can't special order one. You can't buy a VW TDI in many states. I thought that once the low sulfur diesel was established, these vehicles would become available.

I would march right down to my Jeep dealer today and buy a diesel wrangler unlimited. I would sell my 86 vanagon syncro and the TDI motor that I planed on putting in it.

Now I know that some european vehicles do not meet the U.S. Federal safety standards, which is why I can't buy a Bedford Rascal or Suzuki Carryall for U.S. roads. Some companies import them for farm use, but they can't be registered.

Jumping back to diesel for a moment, our 2000 Beetle TDI averages 54mpg, plus you add in the fun of making BioDiesel, (which I do) and the savings are ENORMOUS. A diesel engine will last years longer than it's gas counterpart and emissions have come a long long way from the smokey beast of a 240DL Mercedes.



ok, lets assume diesel is 4 bucks a gallon, I get 54 mpg, so that is about 13.5 miles per dollar.
Gasoline is about 3.20 a gallon round here, lets be generous and say it gets 28 mpg, that's 8.75 miles per dollar. Diesel wins.

(basing these numbers from a TDI Beetle vs a gasoline Beetle...)

 

[mrich12000]

Supreeme ripoff

Today the Gods of ripoff have us buying Reg 87 ro octane $1.13.5 can Petro can Oshawa,Ontario = $5.10 per imp. gallon . The rise of samatra, give Soloman the other half of the baby..

 

[535IS]

A little 'satire challenged', are we, Rocketman?

Perhaps, but if you read his second response

So ... that would make you prescient and humorless?

 

[globalrider]

He would love to replace his fleet with full size 4x4 diesel vans.

I didn't know there were than many 4x4 vans to start with.

But there are diesel Dodge Sprinters available.

 

[BeemerMike]

The liberty is not a wrangler. That engine is offered in Wranglers all around the world except North America. You can't buy one, you can't special order one.

YOU might buy one, but apparently not a lot of people would buy one. That was my point. When Jeep offered diesels (in the Liberty), not a lot a people wanted one. How many Liberties with "CRD" on the back do you see driving around? Maybe you've got reason to believe that the demand situation would be different for a diesel Wrangler, but I'm not sure why that would be.

You can't buy a VW TDI in many states. I thought that once the low sulfur diesel was established, these vehicles would become available.

California, and the states that use California emissions standards (i.e., the Northeast), have more stringent requirements for diesels that cannot be met by the current diesel engines, hence no diesels in those states. That will change with the new generation cleaner diesels (e.g., MB BLUE Tec).

I would march right down to my Jeep dealer today and buy a diesel wrangler unlimited. I would sell my 86 vanagon syncro and the TDI motor that I planed on putting in it.

As I said, you might, but apparently you would be standing in a relatively short line at the Jeep dealer.

Jumping back to diesel for a moment, our 2000 Beetle TDI averages 54mpg, plus you add in the fun of making BioDiesel, (which I do) and the savings are ENORMOUS. A diesel engine will last years longer than it's gas counterpart and emissions have come a long long way from the smokey beast of a 240DL Mercedes.

ok, lets assume diesel is 4 bucks a gallon, I get 54 mpg, so that is about 13.5 miles per dollar. Gasoline is about 3.20 a gallon round here, lets be generous and say it gets 28 mpg, that's 8.75 miles per dollar. Diesel wins.

(basing these numbers from a TDI Beetle vs a gasoline Beetle...)

I don't think the difference was anywhere near this much between a gas Liberty and a diesel Liberty. BTW - My brother owns both a TDI Beetle and 2.0 turbo gas Passat, so I have some familiarity with the gas vs. diesel comparison. The main thing we need to remember is that many people make their gas vs. diesel decision on factors other than just fuel costs and better long-term durability (that they may have to own their diesel for 15 years to realize the durability advantage).

 

[BeemerMike]

I didn't know there were than many 4x4 vans to start with.

The previous Chrysler/Dodge minivans were available in AWD, but it was discontinued when they redesigned the minivan for "Stow and Go" seating (no room under the floor for AWD) in the the current generation minivan. Apparently, they decided the market wanted seating and storage convenience more than the market wanted AWD.

 

[monkeywork]

I'm not sure a mini-van would handle the day to day abuse of a contractor or plumber. Quigley does make a conversion for Ford vans, but it ain't cheap and brings the van near it's weight limit.

You may be right, I may be one of the few that would want a torquey long life diesel in a jeep wrangler. I doubt that however after all the conversations I've had with jeep people.

From what I've been able to find out, there was a stop on diesel imports into the U.S. due to emission requirements. The Liberty CRD as well as TDI's were not built in 2007 for North American markets. (many other passenger vehicles stopped their diesel importing till the U.S. emission requirements settles)

The van thing is another personal desire. I have an AWD van, I want another with modern trimmings such as airbags, abs, etc. I would love to have it be a diesel so that the motor will last 20+ years, as well as previously mentioned BioDiesel production. (I make wine too.) I can find such things in Europe, however I can't import them until they are at least 25 years old.

I would imagine that the Wrangler outsells the Liberty by a wide margin... maybe this will be the year for the CRD to return to North America? They still build it for the world market. The Dodge Sprinter is a great van, it couldn't get up my driveway in the winter if it tried though.

 

[kantuckid]

As far as what sells-I am proud to say that I am far removed from being a LOT LIZARD! but it is reasonable to assume that what sells is a matter of consumer taste , laws and what the lizards push on people! It is common for someone to purchase a vehicle that the salesperson knows little to nothing about it and the consumer probably less than that. I am getting there , but will say that it is common to see somebodies grandma driving a guzzler of the modern type-I don't mean the olds, buick, cady crowd, but rather the 55 mph type that just bought a Camry that's a V-6 instead of a four cyl. It is a solid fact that to see the soccer mom with the cell phone glued to her ear driving a Navigator is old hat. What sells it what you see on TV and thats what they push. The high fuel stuff probably sells it self to those that are after that aspect. My point earlier about hp is that my Tundra with 282hp goes pretty fast , but I see billboards for trucks that have far more-one locally is a sign for a new dodge that has 300 plus hp.
Ethanol-I not a chemist but I can read really well and it is a fact that it takes more petro to make it than you get- with some exceptions. You guys are right, nobody is taking this seriously-I live in one of the poorest counties in the USA, having made at one time the list of 10 poorest places! We have not one red light here, yet when I drive to the library yesterday I have to wait for umpteen cars to go by to pull out and when I get 25 k down the road the wally world lot is full. As long as gas is there they will find a way to buy it.
The government representatives we have are sometimes called leaders and that is exactly what I expect them to do-LEAD. Instead, what we get is the petro guys and the car guys are leading them-building what they want think will sell. An example is the Prius-who hasn't seen one tooling down the I road , us greasy types knowing they are spending extra for a car that is no better on the hwy fuel issue once you get past 25 mph but the driver is considered "green" by the government tax law! It has to start with the government showing leadership and that combined with consumers choosing the stuff that gets real economy. What makes it hard for the consumer is that we can only buy what they sell.
Back to bikes, my 85 hp bike is very fast-so why do we really need 167hp? I'll also throw in what has already been said in bike mags-the new craze for dual purpose bikes is moving toward oversized GS types that get poor economy and are too large and heavy to herd around in the dirt...

 

[monkeywork]

I'm sure as fuel prices increase, the market will shift. Soccer moms will look at the fuel bill for that Navigator and wonder if a mini-van would have better mileage.

We're smart, when we buy a Dodge Charger with the Hemi, we're not concerned about how many MPG it gets. That's cool. just don't complain when a traded commodity increases in price. Free trade! supply and demand. Companies will charge what they think they can get for an item, be that a cup of coffee or a gallon of regular.

a 4cylinder car has always been fine for me. a 4 cylinder diesel truck would be awesome for me. One of my next projects is a 3cylinder diesel hybrid vehicle. I'm aiming for 100mpg.

hey, it's a hobby.

 

[BeemerMike]

I'm sure as fuel prices increase, the market will shift. Soccer moms will look at the fuel bill for that Navigator and wonder if a mini-van would have better mileage.

No doubt that is true. The public policy issue is whether we want/let the government ARTIFICIALLY increase the price of fuel (through taxes) to accelerate these changes. Of course, one should recognize that if we articificially accelerate the changes, we may get different changes than we anticipate or desire, because the market may respond differently if forced to react in a shorter timeframe.

 

[darrylri]

An example is the Prius-who hasn't seen one tooling down the I road , us greasy types knowing they are spending extra for a car that is no better on the hwy fuel issue once you get past 25 mph but the driver is considered "green" by the government tax law!

Not sure where you read this, but we've got a Prius. My wife routinely drives it from SF to LA on I-5, and she's not doing 55mph out there, I assure you. (She recently got a performance award, as a matter of fact, for somewhere north of 85.) The Prius turns in better than 45mpg, which I think is pretty darn good for a heavy, 5 seat sedan -- pretty much the same as my R1200ST, and much better than my R90S.

Just because the electric motor can't run the car by itself above 25 doesn't mean it isn't helping. There are several innovations in the Prius besides the electric motor that help boost its gas mileage.

I'm not going to tell you to buy a Prius and save the earth, but from what I've read, we will easily come out ahead on cost at the end of the day, and that was back when gas was under $3/gal. here; recently it has been pushing $4.

The same is true with the solar panels we installed. It's not going to save the earth, and it was a big chunk of change to pay up front. I looked at it as a fixed price contract for electricity at a flat $0.11/kwh for 15 years. That was already better than what it cost here at the time: we have a complicated 5 tier rate schedule, the second tier of which was at $0.115/kwh, and the fifth tier went up to $0.36/kwh.

6 years down the line, we have paid a total of about $500 for electricity (that would have been ~2 months' bills before hand), and, because the cost of electricity in the higher tiers has gone up quite a lot, I think we're now on schedule to pay off in another 6 years or so.

Assuming I don't have any big problems -- and because the panels are warranted for 25 years, I think I have a good shot at that -- I will have "free" electricity for 12 years.

We're going to make an investment in solar hot water next. We're on propane, which follows the cost of oil. We're paying 2.5X what it cost when we moved here 9 years ago. It'll probably take 5 or 6 years to pay off the cost of the unit, at today's prices, but I expect that, like the electricity, propane will get more expensive down the road and the payoff time will shorten up.

Do the math -- it may be worth your while to go green. That's the way I see it, at least.

 

[bubbagazoo]

Today the Gods of ripoff have us buying Reg 87 ro octane $1.13.5 can Petro can Oshawa,Ontario = $5.10 per imp. gallon . The rise of samatra, give Soloman the other half of the baby..

Don't complain -- you are half a cent/litre lower than the national average for 3 April. Posted prices in Edmonton yesterday are half a cent higher than the national average. And we can both be glad we don't live in Vancouver where the price is someplace between $1.20 and $1.25 per litre.

 

[kantuckid]

My apology on the prius-I was making an anology that came from something I read about the hybrid Explorer. I am too lazy to do the math, but what do you calculate you could buy in gas for the extra cost and maintenance over buying a non hybrid real economy car in the first place? As far as the soccer mom, she will just plug her plastic into the slot and the economy will go downward another notch. I might entertain the idea of building a wrecked prius except for two factors-one is they are overpriced compared to original cost because of the very subject we are supposed to be discussing on the thread and two because they are dog ugly! I can build a car which offers everything a car nut wants for less money and that less money buys gas in the long run, so go figure.
On the pickup issue, I don't understand why a tradesman in the US isn't offered the utilitarian choices of Europe when it's obvious the there are so many economical box trucks and the like all over the place in the US?
As far as electric cars-well there are or I should say have been lots of people way beyond my greasy abilities trying to come up with one and to date it is a failure. When you live in the boonies it is also difficult to plug in when one would like .

 

[monkeywork]

oh I don't know... us backwoods guys get bored and build stuff. Here's a link to an electric VW bus I built.

It ran great! I sold it to a guy in Georgia, who has since sold it to another guy. It had a range of about 35 miles, perfect for back and fourth to work till my job got a little further away. Hence I switched to BioDiesel.

Plus I like the idea of a grease still. Brings out the inner hillbilly in me.

 

[jammess]

IMHO gas prices aren't anywhere near high enough. When I see so many doo dahs let their powerstroke diesels idle while they are in the grocery store or the post office or wherever then I just say to myself, it ain't high enough. Or when I am out for my daily walk to the grocery store and my bubble butt neighbor drives by me on the way to the same place I just say to myself nope, it still ain't high enough. Or when I see that HumVee driving aimlessly I KNOW it ain't high enough.

 

[darrylri]

My apology on the prius-I was making an anology that came from something I read about the hybrid Explorer. I am too lazy to do the math, but what do you calculate you could buy in gas for the extra cost and maintenance over buying a non hybrid real economy car in the first place?

As I understand it, a Prius is supposed to save an owner in the neighborhood of a $2-3k over a 5 year period, compared to a similar conventional car. This includes the tax break. Apparently most hybrids are not actually cheaper than a conventional car, but it depends on the manufacturer's purpose in going to a hybrid. Most of the bigger hybrid vehicles are designed to get more effective horsepower out of a smaller engine, and so don't get necessarily better gas mileage.

I might entertain the idea of building a wrecked prius except for two factors-one is they are overpriced compared to original cost because of the very subject we are supposed to be discussing on the thread and two because they are dog ugly!

De gustibus non disputandem est.

I rather like the looks of the Prius, but I also paid for a new R1200ST. Most people do not consider me to be an arbiter of taste and style.

 

[sudani]

Gas!

Told the boss last week that if I'm not in line for a company car soon that I'll have to consider riding my 650 to work everyday since I have a gas guzzler. That might have been a mistake...he gave up his bike when he got married!

 

[tonkandy]

N
The same is true with the solar panels we installed. It's not going to save the earth, and it was a big chunk of change to pay up front. I looked at it as a fixed price contract for electricity at a flat $0.11/kwh for 15 years. That was already better than what it cost here at the time: we have a complicated 5 tier rate schedule, the second tier of which was at $0.115/kwh, and the fifth tier went up to $0.36/kwh.

6 years down the line, we have paid a total of about $500 for electricity (that would have been ~2 months' bills before hand), and, because the cost of electricity in the higher tiers has gone up quite a lot, I think we're now on schedule to pay off in another 6 years or so.

Assuming I don't have any big problems -- and because the panels are warranted for 25 years, I think I have a good shot at that -- I will have "free" electricity for 12 years.

.

After 6 years the panels have also repaid the "energy cost" involved in producing them. Most panels are warranted for 25 years, but the expected life of panels these days is up to 40 years. A good deal all round. However, Darryl is in an ideal location to install solar, most people planning on installing renewable energy are not going to come out ahead financially (at least not with current conditions) without subsidies. People who install renewable are usually doing it for other (good) reasons than just to save themselves money.

 

[sheridesabeemer]

My 7 mile a day commute is killing me. Ok not really.
But I bought this anyway. I've always wanted to be close enough to work to ride.
I calculate that it should pay for itself in 2 years

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/srab/2389825273/" title="Pedal Bike by sheridesabeemer, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3012/2389825273_3f561b9381.jpg" width="500" height="424" alt="Pedal Bike" /></a>

 

[monkeywork]

gah.. If I was in better shape, (is round a shape?) I'd ride my Trek to work.

it's my goal. This will be the year.