Evasive maneuver need it??

[henzilla]

Methinks we should take a look at the current uniform and gear worn by US combat troops in the heat and think what we do/wear ain't that bad.

While I didn't wear a BP vest as a lineman, some times needed one being shot at twice.
Wearing a long sleeved cotton T with a NOMEX fire retardant long sleeved shirt over that in August TX heat working on a creosote fume releasing pole for 8-10 hours a day makes me appreciate and tolerate ATGATT .
And watching the city Motos running radar under the trees and drinking water from our truck cooler...I'm not too sympathetic I say with a of course.

 

[motorman587]

Methinks we should take a look at the current uniform and gear worn by US combat troops in the heat and think what we do/wear ain't that bad.

While I didn't wear a BP vest as a lineman, some times needed one being shot at twice.
Wearing a long sleeved cotton T with a NOMEX fire retardant long sleeved shirt over that in August TX heat working on a creosote fume releasing pole for 8-10 hours a day makes me appreciate and tolerate ATGATT .
And watching the city Motos running radar under the trees and drinking water from our truck cooler...I'm not too sympathetic I say with a of course.

One of those topics I know I will not win, only if you walked in our shoes/boots. One those we can agree to disagree topics, but it goes back to the orginal post, and that is train and practice.

 

[ANDYVH]

One thing we need to consider is the typical motocop has recieved far more training about riding than most any of us. I have always felt that the training and attitude of the rider does more than helmets, ABS, lights, horns, loud pipes (what a crock!), even ATGATT.

That said though, motocops also do more high speed riding in traffic than most of us do.

Also, for myself its ATGATT, with perhaps the exception of riding pants.

 

[rad]

For the vast majority of us that teach, we don’t do our demo rides in anything more than the thinnest of long sleeve shirts in hot weather. We even teach almost exactly that same exercise, done at a bit less than ?¢ of the speed the motor cops do it. I have heard of the rare MSF instructor that will only demo in full protective grear; but, they are few and far between. Crazier still, thin long sleeve shirts are all we require on the torso for the students......

As for the opening statement, “Evasive maneuver need it??”. For me, no other motorcycle skill has saved me more often than my swerve/avoidance skills, when at speed.

 

[bikerfish1100]

for a first time, i taught ARC classes last summer at Bloomsburg Rally. 115 air temp, 90% humidity. t-shirt for the coaching, put on the mesh jacket for the demos (not many of them, not long doing them, quickly back to "comfort"- such as it was (mostly, it was not. not at all.).

 

[MOTOR31]

This may come as a surprise to you but there is a minimal amount of high speed riding for motors, especially in the municipal arena where the majority of us worked. Most riding was done at in town speed and normal traffic with a brief sprint at times.

On my crash, 30 MPH impact on a left turning car, I had a brief but interesting flight over the top of the car. The landing was accomplished by tumbling since I knew damn well that trying to hold my self stable and slide was and is a losing proposition. A few years of Judo makes falling kind of instinctive too. When I came to a stop my uniform was intact and looked like I had just stopped to lay down on the pavement. The only damage to it was after the medics got there with their manic scissors. They even wanted to cut the straps on my vest, ignoring the velcro one inch from where they wanted to cut. I was able to convince them that velcro does release. My injuries were from impact with the car. Part of me, being my right wrist and knee, didn't quite clear the roof.

I was wearing a long sleeve shirt and ballistic armor on the chest and back, no other gear. Even during the summer I wore a long sleeve shirt the majority of the time because skin cancer is not fun either. It was still cooler than my joe rocket mesh jacket is that I use on my personal bike, including the summertime.

 

[globalrider]

The very few evasive maneuvers I had to make were in real world situations...not practice.

Luckily my motorcycle doesn't have ABS or that bicyclist would have been cut in half.

 

[motorman587]

The very few evasive maneuvers I had to make were in real world situations...not practice.

Luckily my motorcycle doesn't have ABS or that bicyclist would have been cut in half.

How did "not" having ABS save the bicyclist???

 

[globalrider]

How did "not" having ABS save the bicyclist???

I guess you'll have to trust me on that one. I was there.

 

[greenwald]

How did "not" having ABS save the bicyclist???

??????????

 

[marchyman]

An experienced rider who practices braking can out brake ABS in the dry. This has been proven many times in braking tests. ABS systems tend to trigger before wheels lock up. The practiced rider may be able to keep the bike just at the point of lock-up resulting in a shorter stopping distance.

The question is can one out brake ABS when you are not in a test situation, i.e in a situation where you are not mentally and physically prepared to stop at your quickest? I don't think I can. Scratch that... I know I can't. GlobalRider says he can and has.

 

[greenwald]

An experienced rider who practices braking can out brake ABS in the dry. This has been proven many times in braking tests. ABS systems tend to trigger before wheels lock up. The practiced rider may be able to keep the bike just at the point of lock-up resulting in a shorter stopping distance.

The question is can one out brake ABS when you are not in a test situation, i.e in a situation where you are not mentally and physically prepared to stop at your quickest? I don't think I can. Scratch that... I know I can't. GlobalRider says he can and has.

Many times in my EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operation & Control) recertification, which occurred annually over a 30+ yr. career in law enforcement, we spent serious time at the Road America Race Track, perfecting what was known as a "Nine Brake." That is threshold braking where "10" is locked wheels, and "9" is just shy of that - essentially what you would have to simulate to 'out-smart' ABS.

Very difficult to do consistently under controlled conditions, even when you knew when and where it was expected.

Out-performing ABS on the open road when you have but a nano-second to perceive a threat, process your response and physically manipulate controls to acheive genuine threshold braking?

I'm impressed.

 

[ANDYVH]

I agree with Kevin on this. I am one of those riders who actually goes out and purposely practices high-effort braking to sharpen my skills and to understand what I can do, and what the bike can do, and how it reacts to me. That includes doing stops that engage the ABS and stops where I try to "not quite" engage the ABS.

The bigger point of that, is to be familair with the ABS actuation so when it does happen, it is something at least somewhat familiar. I agree too that a skilled rider can possibly out perform ABS assisted stops. But conversely, I agree that in most emergency/panic stops the rider will likely apply enough brakes to engage the ABS. Again the big thing is knowing how you and the bike perform, and not first find out when the vynil-puckering moment is upon you.

 

[henzilla]

I just ride into Austin or San Antonio and practice in real time Someone is going to offer you an appropriate drill.

Since we have a variety of models we each ride, it takes a few maneuvers to understand which bike you are on. Each one accelerates, brakes, steers, and reacts differently, so we know the drill. We accept those risks when we put on the gear and insert the key. YRMV

 

[motorman587]

An experienced rider who practices braking can out brake ABS in the dry. This has been proven many times in braking tests. ABS systems tend to trigger before wheels lock up. The practiced rider may be able to keep the bike just at the point of lock-up resulting in a shorter stopping distance.

The question is can one out brake ABS when you are not in a test situation, i.e in a situation where you are not mentally and physically prepared to stop at your quickest? I don't think I can. Scratch that... I know I can't. GlobalRider says he can and has.

What folks do not understand is ABS is lock/release/lock/release by computers and that release is which adds the feet to the distance. That is why you hear and feel it, if you had a ABS event. It keeps you up right but you are correct a person in a safe controlled enviroment doing threshold hold braking will out stop a motor in ABS mode. I like the point the poster makes about not being in a test situation, ie wet rainy, riding over multiple surfaces, which we all know has different types of coefficient of friction meaning to you, on a panic stop you must be able to identify the different types surfaces you riding on at the time of panic so you know what kind of pressure to able the brakes so you don't lock the front or rear wheel. And remember this a panic you do not have time to think, you must react. Unless your superman or superman that is impossible to do and that is why I would never ride without ABS. I have heard people till me they have been riding xxx years and are a safe rider. I ve been a cop for 24 years and a good one but I still wear that bullet proof vest. Remember ABS is like insurance...........you pay up front but never hope to use it.

 

[motorman587]

Also on all the evasive exercises the rider has a ABS event, the run is marked a fail. It means the rider over braked and the ABS saved the rider's bacon. What I have found in the years of teaching and I am sure other instructors will agree, that I have seen the under use of the front brake and over use of the rear.

 

[greenwald]

Also on all the evasive exercises the rider has a ABS event, the run is marked a fail. It means the rider over braked and the ABS saved the rider's bacon. What I have found in the years of teaching and I am sure other instructors will agree, that I have seen the under use of the front brake and over use of the rear.

Oh so true!

 

[rad]

In the dry, the ABS debate can go on. In the wet, there is no debate....period.

 

[ANDYVH]

This comment is too common, "I have heard people tell me they have been riding xxx years and are a safe rider."

From my persepctive as a MSF instructor of many years, I feel, and have seen, many a "safe" rider with really marginal basic skills. I have long felt that a good percentage of the riding populace never test their skills, and never realize what they can/can't do, but yet rate themselves as a "safe" rider. Much like car drivers who NEVER train to improve, or test their car handling skills, until the pucker/panic moment rears up. So too, many cycle riders get by with no real skills improvement or testing of their skills. That is, until the "suddenly" moment rears up, and if they survive we hear "there was nothing I could do."

Being a "safe" rider is one aspect, but being a SKILLED rider is FAR more important than simply being a "safe" rider. And XX years is really not much of a comment. I recall someone saying, "20 years of riding 1,500 miles a year, does not really make a better rider than 5 years of riding 6,000 to 10,000 miles a year." Each is same miles under the butt, but I'd put my money on the 5-year rider.

 

[motorman587]

In the dry, the ABS debate can go on. In the wet, there is no debate....period.

On a track yes, in the real world no. There are so many different surfaces we ride your brain isn't fast enough.......