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Evasive maneuver need it??
- Thread starter motorman587
- Start date
GeorgeR1200RT
New member
Eavasive?
If he wasn't too quick, I could probably hit him...
If he wasn't too quick, I could probably hit him...
BMW Triumphant
Ed Kilner #176066
Would be nice to know more about the exercise. Don't hit the pedestrian of course.
But, 90 degree turn or down a lane on right or left?
Nice radar sign... Don't have one handy.
But, 90 degree turn or down a lane on right or left?
Nice radar sign... Don't have one handy.
motorman587
New member
There are three lanes. The middle is closed. The instructor will signal left/right or stop. You must swerve the motor without using upper body movement. Nor cover the brake and must me under power, no coasting or rolling off. That is a fail. Speeds need to be 38 to 42 mph for a pass.
88bmwjeff
SF Bay Area
When I took the Experienced Rider Course from MSF, they had a similar set up. I need to do that again. While you can practice these on your own in a parking lot, it's a little different when someone is up there telling you to go left, right or stop. It keeps you on your toes--so to speak.
Polarbear
Polarbear
Its called M/X
Those of us riding dirt all our lives have more of this than a lifetime of obstacle courses. On trails we have much practice that crosses over to pavement. THIS is great time spent for anybody less travelled and not brought up on dirt. Actually, its really cool for anybody to shake rust off too. Any schooling is better than no schooling, yep. RandyGSA1200
Those of us riding dirt all our lives have more of this than a lifetime of obstacle courses
. On trails we have much practice that crosses over to pavement. THIS is great time spent for anybody less travelled and not brought up on dirt. Actually, its really cool for anybody to shake rust off too. Any schooling is better than no schooling, yep. RandyGSA1200
Visian
look out!!!
Those of us riding dirt all our lives have more of this than a lifetime of obstacle courses
they need a "Like" button on this thing....
ANDYVH
New member
We all "need it" in my opinion. There are a LOT of very marginal riders out there on all brands, including BMW now more than ever. Decades back, BMW riders were a bit more exclusive, and most could ride fairly well on those jerky up/down, flexi-frame Airheads.
Being that he is one the brakes hard before the swerve means he must have to attain a speed above the swerve minimum, brake and swerve as directed. He looks pretty tight to the obstacle before the swerve for that speed (a fail coming?), and he seems aligned to the left lane before he is getting the swerve signal.
Possible, BUT, you gotta be good at the controls and know how to make the bike move quickly. That means:
1. Steady throttle through the swerve, NO back off once your speed is stable.
2. LOOK where you have to go! And don't look back!
3. Press, firm, quick and a bit hard on the handgrip in the direction of the swerve.
4. Upper body remains steady, in line with the bike. On a swerve manuever you have NO time for ANY upper body motion other than your hands at the grips. ANY other body motion just delays the swerve process.
5. Let the bike move underneath you and do not counter it in any way.
6. Be ready to press again, firm and decisive on the opposite grip if needed to regain your line or avoid another obstacle.
Big thing is, swerving is something everyone should do, on their own bike.
I've been teaching the MSF BRC and ERC for 20 years now and the swerve is always a good exercise in either course. But years ago, the old ERC had a three step, compound swerve manuever, each succesive swerve got closer in approach, and further offset from the previous one. I have actually seen Gold Wings "hop" the front tire from 1st swerve to 3rd swerve. In those exercises, we also praticed Brake-then-Swerve in one exercise, and then a Swerve-then-Brake in another. I wish we still did those for the current ERC.
I used to work with instructors that did it on a 76 FLH Electra-Glide and another on a Super Glide, at nearly 20 mph. I did it on my 76 R100RS and it took a LOT of press action with that narrow handlebar.
Being that he is one the brakes hard before the swerve means he must have to attain a speed above the swerve minimum, brake and swerve as directed. He looks pretty tight to the obstacle before the swerve for that speed (a fail coming?), and he seems aligned to the left lane before he is getting the swerve signal.
Possible, BUT, you gotta be good at the controls and know how to make the bike move quickly. That means:
1. Steady throttle through the swerve, NO back off once your speed is stable.
2. LOOK where you have to go! And don't look back!
3. Press, firm, quick and a bit hard on the handgrip in the direction of the swerve.
4. Upper body remains steady, in line with the bike. On a swerve manuever you have NO time for ANY upper body motion other than your hands at the grips. ANY other body motion just delays the swerve process.
5. Let the bike move underneath you and do not counter it in any way.
6. Be ready to press again, firm and decisive on the opposite grip if needed to regain your line or avoid another obstacle.
Big thing is, swerving is something everyone should do, on their own bike.
I've been teaching the MSF BRC and ERC for 20 years now and the swerve is always a good exercise in either course. But years ago, the old ERC had a three step, compound swerve manuever, each succesive swerve got closer in approach, and further offset from the previous one. I have actually seen Gold Wings "hop" the front tire from 1st swerve to 3rd swerve. In those exercises, we also praticed Brake-then-Swerve in one exercise, and then a Swerve-then-Brake in another. I wish we still did those for the current ERC.
I used to work with instructors that did it on a 76 FLH Electra-Glide and another on a Super Glide, at nearly 20 mph. I did it on my 76 R100RS and it took a LOT of press action with that narrow handlebar.
jstrube
John.
Andy, I think he is doing the "STOP" version, with the brake light on in that photo. See the barrier tape across the middle lane & how close he is?
What is confusing me is how the radar is still registering that high with him that close to the tape, unless he just hit the brakes late, or it is slow to re-register.
I had a blast at ERC, I need to take it again!
blur
New member
Pulling in the clutch and coasting through a swerve is safer.
Traction is used in only two instances; a change in speed or a change in direction. (You use a little traction to overcome wind resistance in a straight line, steady speed, if you want to split hairs).
So by pulling in the clutch, you're "refilling your traction reserves" to allow for its use for changing direction. It's also important to brake before and not during a swerve for this same reason.
It also provides a little insurance if a rider twists the throttle during a hard push on the bars.
Traction is used in only two instances; a change in speed or a change in direction. (You use a little traction to overcome wind resistance in a straight line, steady speed, if you want to split hairs
).So by pulling in the clutch, you're "refilling your traction reserves" to allow for its use for changing direction. It's also important to brake before and not during a swerve for this same reason.
It also provides a little insurance if a rider twists the throttle during a hard push on the bars.
ANDYVH
New member
Oh right, the instructor is giving what appears to be a "STOP" signal. There is way too little space in front of the bike to do a swerve unless he comes to a near stop, feet up, and then does a full lock right or left, pretty tough manuever but can be done with enough space and no feet down.
But this comment is flat out wrong!!"Pulling in the clutch and coasting through a swerve is safer."
NO WAY!! ABSOLUTLELY NOT! I will challenge this one every time. I have been praticing and applying the process of steady throttle, clutch out, bike on power, on a wide variety of bikes, and it alwys works. Unless you think you have all that room and time to swerve in an emergency manuever, pulling in the clutch slows the entire process down, changes/upsets the front tire loading and chassis attitude, and with the clutch in/power off, the bike will be slowing through the swerve manuever. Remember, a swerve is a quick evasive action, with NO time to think about pulling in the clutch and slowing the bike.
"So by pulling in the clutch, you're "refilling your traction reserves" to allow for its use for changing direction."
Wrong again! You are not "refilling" any traction reserves. That slowing action also makes the bike more UNSTABLE because it will want to "fall in", in the direction of the swerve. This is especially true of bikes with standard front forks (non Telelever style), because the sudden action of pulling in the clutch causes a chassis reaction to compress the front fork and change the steering geometry. In an evasive manuever chassis stability is critical, along with consistent front tire loading to insure the traction is used to make the bike move quickly. With steady throttle/power applied, you are actually MAXIMIZING traction for the swerve. Also, steady throttle applied maintains ground clearance and extends the front fork. Key here is NO braking, the only action you are doing is the swerve, and that is done at the speed at the entry of the swerve, when tire traction is already established.
Now, this comment is correct: "Traction is used in only two instances; a change in speed or a change in direction."
In a swerve manuever, traction is priority because of the quick direction changes. BUT, we also know that changes in speed means both speeding up and slowing down. An action of changing speed, by throttle or by pulling in the clutch, also causes a change in speed and that eats traction. So steady applied throttle is the key. If a rider cannot make a swerve manuever with a steady throttle, the 1st problem is throttle control, not the swerving action.
Sorry if it seems I am jumping on your technique (well, actually I am), but what you say is totally counter to established swerve techniques. The fact that your profile says you are a MSF instructor also means you are not following MSF protocol and curriculum. Sorry, but here I am a tough nut to crack.
Now, your last comment: "It also provides a little insurance if a rider twists the throttle during a hard push on the bars." is either SO way off you don't realize you just countered your first comments, or you are just being sarcastic and trying to see if anyone is paying attention. A twist of the throttle with the clutch pulled in while pushing on the bars? Huh?
But this comment is flat out wrong!!"Pulling in the clutch and coasting through a swerve is safer."
NO WAY!! ABSOLUTLELY NOT! I will challenge this one every time. I have been praticing and applying the process of steady throttle, clutch out, bike on power, on a wide variety of bikes, and it alwys works. Unless you think you have all that room and time to swerve in an emergency manuever, pulling in the clutch slows the entire process down, changes/upsets the front tire loading and chassis attitude, and with the clutch in/power off, the bike will be slowing through the swerve manuever. Remember, a swerve is a quick evasive action, with NO time to think about pulling in the clutch and slowing the bike.
"So by pulling in the clutch, you're "refilling your traction reserves" to allow for its use for changing direction."
Wrong again! You are not "refilling" any traction reserves. That slowing action also makes the bike more UNSTABLE because it will want to "fall in", in the direction of the swerve. This is especially true of bikes with standard front forks (non Telelever style), because the sudden action of pulling in the clutch causes a chassis reaction to compress the front fork and change the steering geometry. In an evasive manuever chassis stability is critical, along with consistent front tire loading to insure the traction is used to make the bike move quickly. With steady throttle/power applied, you are actually MAXIMIZING traction for the swerve. Also, steady throttle applied maintains ground clearance and extends the front fork. Key here is NO braking, the only action you are doing is the swerve, and that is done at the speed at the entry of the swerve, when tire traction is already established.
Now, this comment is correct: "Traction is used in only two instances; a change in speed or a change in direction."
In a swerve manuever, traction is priority because of the quick direction changes. BUT, we also know that changes in speed means both speeding up and slowing down. An action of changing speed, by throttle or by pulling in the clutch, also causes a change in speed and that eats traction. So steady applied throttle is the key. If a rider cannot make a swerve manuever with a steady throttle, the 1st problem is throttle control, not the swerving action.
Sorry if it seems I am jumping on your technique (well, actually I am), but what you say is totally counter to established swerve techniques. The fact that your profile says you are a MSF instructor also means you are not following MSF protocol and curriculum. Sorry, but here I am a tough nut to crack.
Now, your last comment: "It also provides a little insurance if a rider twists the throttle during a hard push on the bars." is either SO way off you don't realize you just countered your first comments, or you are just being sarcastic and trying to see if anyone is paying attention. A twist of the throttle with the clutch pulled in while pushing on the bars? Huh?
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blur
New member
You don't have to agree with me. I'm okay with that. I like to hear differing perspectives as disagreement makes us all think critically. I appreciate the politeness.
ANDYVH
New member
At least I hope my explanations make sense rather than the usual internet response of expletives and useless comments common to most other motorcycle forums.
Sorry for jumping on the last comment: "It also provides a little insurance if a rider twists the throttle during a hard push on the bars." I looked again at it, and in the context of your post it does correlate with the idea of pulling the clutch.
However, like I said, if a rider has a problem with twisting the throttle when applying the "press/push" for a quick swerve manuever, the rider has throttle control issues in general and pulling the clutch simply masks that problem. Earlier in the BRC program, well before the swerve exercises, other range exercises focus on throttle control while moving the handlebar so we coaches can correct that action before the student learns a wrong/bad habit.
Sorry for jumping on the last comment: "It also provides a little insurance if a rider twists the throttle during a hard push on the bars." I looked again at it, and in the context of your post it does correlate with the idea of pulling the clutch.
However, like I said, if a rider has a problem with twisting the throttle when applying the "press/push" for a quick swerve manuever, the rider has throttle control issues in general and pulling the clutch simply masks that problem. Earlier in the BRC program, well before the swerve exercises, other range exercises focus on throttle control while moving the handlebar so we coaches can correct that action before the student learns a wrong/bad habit.
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People's perception of the trainee being so close to the tape (the closed lane) and to the far left edge of it (again, the closed lane) is probably a result of the altered perspective that results from photographing a distant object with a long telephoto lens. For the sake of safety, the photographer was probably much further away from the subject than most people realize, using a SLR camera with a long (at least 300mm) lens mounted on a heavy duty tripod. Using such a long lens tends to compress the distance between objects, just as using an extreme wide angle lens extends the distance between objects. (ever go house hunting on-line? That is how real estate agents make small rooms look big.)
Perhaps the OP will clarify the issue of distance and lane position for us so we have a better frame of reference to better understand the exercise.
motorman587
New member
Like to post two things.
First, swerving with the clutch in. We did in the BMW Preference Center a couple years ago and it was the scraies thing I ever did. I had no control over the motorcycle, it felt like I lost power steering. Why they taught I have no idea, but no I with other poster with keeping power to rear wheel, do not roll off the throttle.
Second the swerve, the lanes are: You have a middle lane that is 8 feet wide and 80 feet long. The rider comes down that lane and the instructor will give the left, right or stop signal. Once you pass the 80 foot lane you 60 feet to go left/right or stop. There are three lanes again 8 feet wide about 40 feet wide.
The radar unit does not change speed at that second. It takes a second or so to register the new speed. It is bulit that way so officers can not just move/put the radar on moving vehicle. There is that second or so for it to adjust to the new speed. That is why in the picture it appears the rider is slowing but the speed is still show a high speed. Hope that made sense.
First, swerving with the clutch in. We did in the BMW Preference Center a couple years ago and it was the scraies thing I ever did. I had no control over the motorcycle, it felt like I lost power steering. Why they taught I have no idea, but no I with other poster with keeping power to rear wheel, do not roll off the throttle.
Second the swerve, the lanes are: You have a middle lane that is 8 feet wide and 80 feet long. The rider comes down that lane and the instructor will give the left, right or stop signal. Once you pass the 80 foot lane you 60 feet to go left/right or stop. There are three lanes again 8 feet wide about 40 feet wide.
The radar unit does not change speed at that second. It takes a second or so to register the new speed. It is bulit that way so officers can not just move/put the radar on moving vehicle. There is that second or so for it to adjust to the new speed. That is why in the picture it appears the rider is slowing but the speed is still show a high speed. Hope that made sense.
blur
New member
A few other points I would like to add regarding the topic of swerving...
Pulling in the clutch doesn't come close to loading the front end like using the brakes does. When's the last time you pulled the clutch in on level ground and coasted to a stop? It takes a looong time. And a swerve at speed lasts what? 1/2 second? 1? 2 seconds? Coasting isn't braking and the bike's handling characteristics - for all intents and purposes - are the same.
Discovering you have poor throttle control while in a swerve is probably the worst time to realize you need to brush up on your throttle control skills. So how do we take the throttle out of the equation? Pull in the clutch.
And... a motorcycle doesn't care how many teaching certificates you or I have when we ride. It doesn't care who we teach for. It only cares about following the physical laws. So instead of simply repeating dogma, let's explain why a skill works the way it does instead of saying "that's the way it's always been done".
Also, let's not let our perceptions get in the way either. Motorman said "it was the scariest thing I ever did". Learning something new is scary! But I equate this statement to a new rider seeing a new skill and saying "oh, I can't do that". He or she has already convinced himself or herself that something is or isn't doable. How we perceive something can ultimately become a stumbling block to learning.
"I had no control over the motorcycle, it felt like I lost power steering." But had you lost control over the motorcycle? Really? Or is that the way it felt?
"Why they taught I have no idea"
How much time have you put into thinking about the why? Or because it seemed scary and you felt like you had no control, it was dismissed?
Please don't take anything I'm saying as arguing, arrogant or rude. If it comes across that way, I'm sorry; I certainly didn't mean it to be. To be perfectly honest, I've always strove to understand the 'why' behind everything as simply accepting the established orthodoxy is a pet peeve of mine.
Pulling in the clutch doesn't come close to loading the front end like using the brakes does. When's the last time you pulled the clutch in on level ground and coasted to a stop? It takes a looong time. And a swerve at speed lasts what? 1/2 second? 1? 2 seconds? Coasting isn't braking and the bike's handling characteristics - for all intents and purposes - are the same.
Discovering you have poor throttle control while in a swerve is probably the worst time to realize you need to brush up on your throttle control skills. So how do we take the throttle out of the equation? Pull in the clutch.
And... a motorcycle doesn't care how many teaching certificates you or I have when we ride. It doesn't care who we teach for. It only cares about following the physical laws. So instead of simply repeating dogma, let's explain why a skill works the way it does instead of saying "that's the way it's always been done".
Also, let's not let our perceptions get in the way either. Motorman said "it was the scariest thing I ever did". Learning something new is scary! But I equate this statement to a new rider seeing a new skill and saying "oh, I can't do that". He or she has already convinced himself or herself that something is or isn't doable. How we perceive something can ultimately become a stumbling block to learning.
"I had no control over the motorcycle, it felt like I lost power steering." But had you lost control over the motorcycle? Really? Or is that the way it felt?
"Why they taught I have no idea"
How much time have you put into thinking about the why? Or because it seemed scary and you felt like you had no control, it was dismissed?
Please don't take anything I'm saying as arguing, arrogant or rude. If it comes across that way, I'm sorry; I certainly didn't mean it to be. To be perfectly honest, I've always strove to understand the 'why' behind everything as simply accepting the established orthodoxy is a pet peeve of mine.
greenwald
New member
Pulling in the clutch and coasting through a swerve is safer.
Traction is used in only two instances; a change in speed or a change in direction. (You use a little traction to overcome wind resistance in a straight line, steady speed, if you want to split hairs
So by pulling in the clutch, you're "refilling your traction reserves" to allow for its use for changing direction. It's also important to brake before and not during a swerve for this same reason.
It also provides a little insurance if a rider twists the throttle during a hard push on the bars.
Humbly excuse me, but I'm having a bit of a problem digesting some of your comments. As a veteran Motor Officer and MSF RiderCoach, I would counsel anyone in the real world to slow (brake) to a manageable speed if they have time (or in the case of conducting the BRC Swerving Exercise, we coach students to approach in 2nd gear at about 12-15 MPH) and then maintain steady throttle control, no braking, no 'clutch-coasting,' and swerve the bike thru the maneuver without upper body lean.
Squeezing in the clutch (disengagement of power to the rear wheel), or introducing a 'blip' in throttle response while pushing hard into the swerve, creates instability in both the bike's suspension, traction and the rider's control. The most effective swerves I've ever completed, either in training or to save my butt, have always been the ones I steadily powered through!
Curious advice, not only from an MSF cirriculum perspective (which I never presume to be neither gospel nor dogma but in this case, makes perfect sense to me as an experienced motorcyclist) but also contrary to my training in (and years of) law enforcement ridng.
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ANDYVH
New member
So, curiosity strikes me Blur, what do you teach during BRC and ERC courses for the range exercises of the swerve manuever?
Like Greenwald, I don't take MSF doctrine as absolute gospel/dogma, but I feel the swerve as per MSF makes all the right moves. In an evasive swerve manuever, given the very short time frame of the actions, I feel the only thing a rider can do consistently and accurately, is press-press firm and quick to achieve the swerve and recover. No time to consider things like: throttle (other than steady), clutch, or body motion.
I have always told my over 3,000 students, "its all at your palms on the grips, that's where you make it happen", with no throttle change or clutch action.
Like Greenwald, I don't take MSF doctrine as absolute gospel/dogma, but I feel the swerve as per MSF makes all the right moves. In an evasive swerve manuever, given the very short time frame of the actions, I feel the only thing a rider can do consistently and accurately, is press-press firm and quick to achieve the swerve and recover. No time to consider things like: throttle (other than steady), clutch, or body motion.
I have always told my over 3,000 students, "its all at your palms on the grips, that's where you make it happen", with no throttle change or clutch action.
bikerfish1100
New member
a few thoughts/questions:
-maintaining steady throttle (or increasing throttle if conditions allow for and encourage it) is the cleanest way to get through a corner, yes? so why would pulling in the clutch and cutting power in a swerve be better? (the ONLY time i am ever coasting thru something on my bike is if i am dealing with seriously poor traction conditions- ice, snow, thick sand, etc).
-exactly how would twisting the throttle in the midst of swerving "provide insurance"? I find that recommendation especially curious (dangerous?) if you are doing so while the clutch is disengaged (blur's suggestion), as at that point the throttle is acting primarily as a noise maker. except on one of our opposed twin BMWs, in which case "twisting the throttle" will send a righthand twist into the driveline, which could be especially disconcerting to the rider, and upsetting to the suspension as well. again- why and how would that be helpful?
-maintaining steady throttle (or increasing throttle if conditions allow for and encourage it) is the cleanest way to get through a corner, yes? so why would pulling in the clutch and cutting power in a swerve be better? (the ONLY time i am ever coasting thru something on my bike is if i am dealing with seriously poor traction conditions- ice, snow, thick sand, etc).
-exactly how would twisting the throttle in the midst of swerving "provide insurance"? I find that recommendation especially curious (dangerous?) if you are doing so while the clutch is disengaged (blur's suggestion), as at that point the throttle is acting primarily as a noise maker. except on one of our opposed twin BMWs, in which case "twisting the throttle" will send a righthand twist into the driveline, which could be especially disconcerting to the rider, and upsetting to the suspension as well. again- why and how would that be helpful?
