Evasive maneuver need it??

[MOTOR31]

If you are going to stop, then by all means pull in the clutch. As far as swerving or other evasive maneuvers are concerned, you maintain power through the swerve to keep traction, momentum and positive control of the vehicle. Pulling in the clutch means you have to then rematch the revs to the speed before adding power to move through the obstacle, that induces a new control parameter when you need it the least.

Why endanger your rear wheel traction by having to re engage the power system when you had it all there to begin with? The turn itself is going to scrub off speed and you need to have some speed to complete the move then continue on your way. Or in the case of a Motor Officer, come back and write the ticket to the person who created the situation.

 

[blur]

I would counsel anyone in the real world to slow (brake) to a manageable speed if they have time (or in the case of conducting the BRC Swerving Exercise, we coach students to approach in 2nd gear at about 12-15 MPH)

Excellent point, excellent advice, Greenwald. Thank you for bringing it up.

During the swerve exercise in class, when an explanation has just been given and a demo recently provided, swerving is on their mind. It's a new skill that they're trying to learn. They know what they need to do and they're prepared for it.

Now please allow me to bring a real-world scenario into the conversation. Let's say that a rider is out riding, it's been a few months since their MSF class and swerving is the last thing on their mind. They've been riding regularly and their new skills are beginning to gel into habits and instinct. They're riding along at 60 mph in 5th gear when something ahead of them happens requiring action on the their part. I'm betting that the first controls the riders reach for (and as you advise and I agree with) are the brakes. As the rider is braking hard trying to slow or get stopped, they realize they won't be able to. This is the point at which swerve skills come into play.

Let's say that they've just braked from 60mph to 20mph and now they need to swerve. At their new speed of 20mph, engine speed no longer matches road speed (5th gear). Their engine is lugging. Have they already pulled the clutch in? I suspect they have.

But now, in order to provide steady throttle through a swerve, it's going to be necessary to downshift (once or twice? or do they roll with a lugging engine?), balance the throttle input and clutch release perfectly (to prevent engine braking or acceleration) and release the brakes (in order to separate braking and swerving).

That's a lot of control input just to be able to provide steady throttle through a swerve!

In a nutshell... all I'm saying is that the very small amount of weight transfer to the front wheel when the clutch is pulled in (which I consider negligible) is favorable to all the other control input that potentially comes into play in order to supply steady throttle at a new speed. The K.I.S.S. principle, if you will.

Now let's look back at the swerve exercise in class. We have students accelerate to a steady speed towards this obstacle we want them to avoid. Kinda crazy when you think about it

Am I proposing that the curriculum be changed? Nope. I consider myself a realist and ultimately, there's only so much we can teach students. IF we were to start teaching an exercise where students were asked to decelerate prior to a swerve, range size would be a limiting factor. There's typically just not enough space.

So, curiosity strikes me Blur, what do you teach during BRC and ERC courses for the range exercises of the swerve manuever?

I teach by the book. This is what I'm hired to do.

-exactly how would twisting the throttle in the midst of swerving "provide insurance"?

Sorry for not being more clear. I originally wrote "It also provides a little insurance if a rider twists the throttle during a hard push on the bars." What I meant by "It" was holding in the clutch.


Thanks again guys for keeping it civil. I hope I have

 

[bikerfish1100]

Sorry for not being more clear. I originally wrote "It also provides a little insurance if a rider twists the throttle during a hard push on the bars." What I meant by "It" was holding in the clutch.


Thanks again guys for keeping it civil. I hope I have

if they are having trouble with throttle control while countersteering, i'm thinking that maybe more time needed to be spent on RE2, RE5, RE7, RE11, RE12, RE13, RE16 & RE17, rather than recommending a "work-around" to address the issue. (my apologies to the non-MSF readers partaking of this discussion)

as far as your real world scenario- i'm wanting that newish rider to downshift while they are braking, so they are in the correct gear to deal with the swerve or other evasive manuver. that, and scanning far enough ahead so that they don't find themselves in a panic situation at 60mph that requires them to shut it down to 20 mph and executing evasive action.
remember- a superior rider uses superior judgement to avoid having to use superior (avoidance) skills.

 

[blur]

if they are having trouble with throttle control while countersteering, i'm thinking that maybe more time needed to be spent on RE2, RE5, RE7, RE11, RE12, RE13, RE16 & RE17, rather than recommending a "work-around" to address the issue. (my apologies to the non-MSF readers partaking of this discussion)

Sorry but I don't consider it a "work-around". I consider it a way to cut down on the amount of control input necessary which makes the maneuver more simple and therefore, more safe.

Pulling the clutch in is much easier (gross motor skill) than maintaining throttle control (finer motor skill) during a panic situation. It takes throttle management out of the picture and as I've mentioned "adds insurance" if you don't get the throttle management right.

Weighing the pros and cons of each scenario ("clutch in and swerve" and "steady throttle and swerve"), I consider the former to be preferable.

 

[bikerfish1100]

Sorry but I don't consider it a "work-around". I consider it a way to cut down on the amount of control input necessary which makes the maneuver more simple and therefore, more safe.

Pulling the clutch in is much easier (gross motor skill) than maintaining throttle control (finer motor skill) during a panic situation. It takes throttle management out of the picture and as I've mentioned "adds insurance" if you don't get the throttle management right.

Weighing the pros and cons of each scenario ("clutch in and swerve" and "steady throttle and swerve"), I consider the former to be preferable.

you say poe-tay-toe, i'll say poe-tah-toe.

 

[motorman587]

if they are having trouble with throttle control while countersteering, i'm thinking that maybe more time needed to be spent on RE2, RE5, RE7, RE11, RE12, RE13, RE16 & RE17, rather than recommending a "work-around" to address the issue. (my apologies to the non-MSF readers partaking of this discussion)

as far as your real world scenario- i'm wanting that newish rider to downshift while they are braking, so they are in the correct gear to deal with the swerve or other evasive manuver. that, and scanning far enough ahead so that they don't find themselves in a panic situation at 60mph that requires them to shut it down to 20 mph and executing evasive action.
remember- a superior rider uses superior judgement to avoid having to use superior (avoidance) skills.

And how does one get that!!!

 

[ANDYVH]

Blur, I understand your viewpoint, taken in the context of the true beginner rider, or a rider of limited experience. Yes, effective, accurate, correct motorcycle control, especially in an evasive manuever requires a LOT of coordinated actions, very-quick decisions, and accurate applications of multiple controls all at once. Daunting to say the least.

To the brand new rider that is a LOT to ask. Would be like telling a newbie helicopter student, "there, I described the controls to you, now go hover 6" off the ground and then fly a backwards figure 8 pattern and land on the same point you started from."

While the BRC class is a beginner rider course, one thing I stress to all of my students (probably which over 1/2 have riding experience) is riding is NOT easy when you HAVE to do EXACTLY the right things at the right time. I stress to them the exercises we pratice are only raw beginnings of their learning curves. I really try to express to them "just getting by", or "this is the easy/comfortable way to do this" is NOT acceptable for survival. I struggle with a lot of the attitude of dumbing down riding so anyone can do it. I don't go for the "try to cut down on the amount of control input to make the manuever more simple." In fact I think the BRC is way too easy to pass as it is, and that there should be more exercises which build on the swerve, such as brake hard, then swerve, from 3rd gear to a 2nd gear swerve.

Some are not meant to ride. For some that is done by us as instructors. For some it is done by their own ineptitude or that they scare themselves out of riding, fine. For others is done by the traffic laws of natural selection and only the strong survive. My goal is to impart the attitude of "I gotta be strong to survive", and I have told students, "if you don't feel you can do that then you should not be riding."

I feel, we MSF instructors have to impart that seed, or that attitude, of only being very good at riding as acceptable, and all else is pandering off riders to possible doom. Granted, you can't fix stupid, and it is always up to the rider themself to survive and grow. But our best chance to expect the best is in those 16 hours of the MSF class. THAT is a lot to ask.

 

[blur]

Blur, I understand your viewpoint, taken in the context of the true beginner rider, or a rider of limited experience. Yes, effective, accurate, correct motorcycle control, especially in an evasive manuever requires a LOT of coordinated actions, very-quick decisions, and accurate applications of multiple controls all at once. Daunting to say the least.

To the brand new rider that is a LOT to ask. Would be like telling a newbie helicopter student, "there, I described the controls to you, now go hover 6" off the ground and then fly a backwards figure 8 pattern and land on the same point you started from."

While the BRC class is a beginner rider course, one thing I stress to all of my students (probably which over 1/2 have riding experience) is riding is NOT easy when you HAVE to do EXACTLY the right things at the right time. I stress to them the exercises we pratice are only raw beginnings of their learning curves. I really try to express to them "just getting by", or "this is the easy/comfortable way to do this" is NOT acceptable for survival. I struggle with a lot of the attitude of dumbing down riding so anyone can do it. I don't go for the "try to cut down on the amount of control input to make the manuever more simple." In fact I think the BRC is way too easy to pass as it is, and that there should be more exercises which build on the swerve, such as brake hard, then swerve, from 3rd gear to a 2nd gear swerve.

Some are not meant to ride. For some that is done by us as instructors. For some it is done by their own ineptitude or that they scare themselves out of riding, fine. For others is done by the traffic laws of natural selection and only the strong survive. My goal is to impart the attitude of "I gotta be strong to survive", and I have told students, "if you don't feel you can do that then you should not be riding."

I feel, we MSF instructors have to impart that seed, or that attitude, of only being very good at riding as acceptable, and all else is pandering off riders to possible doom. Granted, you can't fix stupid, and it is always up to the rider themself to survive and grow. But our best chance to expect the best is in those 16 hours of the MSF class. THAT is a lot to ask.

I agree with almost 100% of your post. Let's call it 99.9%

The one tenth of the percent that catches my attention is the notion that pulling in the clutch during a swerve is dumbing down the technique. I would rather like to think of it as a method that's easier to master since there's less control input involved.

We all have our good days on the bike, our bad days on the bike. And when it comes to evasive action during an emergency procedure, I want the odds in my favor. That is, I want the least number of simplest tasks necessary to get me through.

Thanks for posting! Very well worded!

Edit: Oops!! Almost forgot to stress... I absolutely agree that the swerve technique presented by the MSF is adequate and what should be presented to new riders. Yes, it's necessary that we keep new techniques down to a minimum. "Steady throttle" through a swerve instead of "pull in the clutch during a swerve" means that a new rider won't have to answer the question..... "Now which one of these hand levers was the clutch again?" as they approach the swerve area.

My goodness! Think of the potential trouble grabbing the front brake just before a swerve would cause...

 

[ANDYVH]

Oh I know, we instructors have all seen that look of "mental overload approaching" when all we ask for is simple straight line regular stops. The student is trying to discern which "sequence" of the five primary controls has precedence, and we're simply saying "both hands, both feet, all at the same time."

Sure, try to convince a 54 year old mom first time rider who hasn't ridden a bicycle in 15 years that all that is easy to do, exactly as we show them to do, from precisely what speed and which gear, with the left foot down first, and where am I looking and why do my hands grip SO tight? MY BACK HURTS! ITS HOT IN THIS HELMET!

And that's just exercise three on the first day!

Now, put them in a swerve only? Brake then SWERVE? SWERVE THEN BRAKE!!??
ARRRGGGGHHHH!

But, in the real world of survival, it is all that and more. THAT is why good traffic skills and strategies are more important than the mechanics or riding. Hopefully good skills/strategies avoids getting to the point of Reactionary Reliance (fancy wording for panic reaction). Personally, I like "sucking vinyl!"

 

[bikerfish1100]

"think of the... trouble it would cause?"
i have seen the trouble. it's called a lowside. it wasn't pretty.

Andy- your request for "brake then swerve" has been answered within the ARC-ST. It makes the BRC-2/ERC look like, well, the BRC done on your own bike.

 

[BMW Triumphant]

Back in 2000, after 20 years away, i bought a Triumph Legend TT. Nice bike.

Just after cresting a hill that first Autumn, a car in front of my suddendly slowed to turn left. evasive action required.

I first tried braking. Back end waggled, but slowly. I had time to realize i had too much rear brake. But, the distance was closing...

I released the rear brake, started to speed up, but felt quite in control again, and upright. It was then easy to use the right third of the lane to get around the car.

I'm glad i was aware of leaves on the road and was at a sensible speed. I was also pleased to figure out the rear brake issue.

In the end, i thanked the engineers who designed a pretty good bike that helped me out when i needed it to do so.

This is a good example i think of how the real world can give rise to the need for these moves, and hope you all do some practice at the start of the riding season.

 

[ANDYVH]

Like I mentioned, the "old format" ERC had a couple swerve exercises that were deleted when the "new format" ERC came out over five years ago. Personally, I felt the old exercises were worth doing, so its good to know some more evasive manuever pratices are back for the ARC. I'm getting Rider Coach training this sumer for the ARC and I'm looking forward to it!

I agree, the current format ERC is really not much more than the BRC on your own bike. Still not a bad idea, but not all it could be.

 

[daveslash5]

This trainee might be learning to swerve to survive, but he might want to consider DRESSING to survive. I guess AGATT is not big in his segment of the motorcycling world.
Short sleeve shirt as protective gear during practice???

 

[henzilla]

This trainee might be learning to swerve to survive, but he might want to consider DRESSING to survive. I guess AGATT is not big in his segment of the motorcycling world.
Short sleeve shirt as protective gear during practice???

I'm glad someone pointed that out...I didn't want to get my rights read to me by the resident LEO's
Some departments still go by tradition, but it seems to be changing slowly from what I have observed.

 

[roamingbeemer]

Great

I found this thread very informative. I just want to add my experience from last year. I was approaching an intersection with a car waiting to turn left and as I was approaching the light I gave a flash of my HB (sunny day) to the car so they are sure to see me. I was suspicious of this car so I was slowing and as I pulled the clutch to down shift after flashing my HB the car pulled out. I was prepared so it was no issue as I went around them to the left. (I am going to start a thread to ask your opinion of flashing the HBs because I think I caused the car to start their turn)

I then re-engaged the clutch in 3rd or 4th gear (I forget now) and continued on. Granted it was not a panic swerve but it it the closest I have ever gotten to one. I had the clutch in the whole time during the maneuver because I was focused on counter steering and looking for any other threats. I have practiced both the swerve, brake and swerve, and swerve and brake in a parking lot after doing it in different classes and then I had the clutch engaged.

I am just saying here the real world scenarios may not always work the same as the class. I have been training pilots for over 20 years in several different countries and the challenge is always to make the training reflect real world scenarios. With the countless variables I am still learning and seeing where the training is not effective and needs to improve. Great Discussion and I especially appreciate everyone seems professional on this forum. I usually stop reading when it gets ugly.

 

[motorman587]

This trainee might be learning to swerve to survive, but he might want to consider DRESSING to survive. I guess AGATT is not big in his segment of the motorcycling world.
Short sleeve shirt as protective gear during practice???

I totally agree with your statement however I would like to add that most motor cops wear a bull-proof vest which is more armor that some wear on a motorcycle. We in law enforcement in the south understand about AGATT, but we also must dress for the heat. We already wear about 30 pounds of gear. Yes, I understand I picked this profession and we understand and take the risk for not wearing a jacket. I also have to dress to deal with people, but again I totally agree with your statement.

 

[bikerfish1100]

john- the full mesh summer jackets are quite cool, even in hot weather (especially once you are moving at anything above 5 mph), and offer a ton more protection than just a shirt. yeah, a bulletproof vest is good, but you're much more likely to take a hit to the hands, shoulders or arms in a get-off than you are to your central core.
'tradition" is a real hard thing to get past, even for the purpose of increased safety.

 

[motorman587]

john- the full mesh summer jackets are quite cool, even in hot weather (especially once you are moving at anything above 5 mph), and offer a ton more protection than just a shirt. yeah, a bulletproof vest is good, but you're much more likely to take a hit to the hands, shoulders or arms in a get-off than you are to your central core.
'tradition" is a real hard thing to get past, even for the purpose of increased safety.

Again totally agree with you, but remember motor cops are on and off the motorcycle. The seat on hot motorcycle for laser enforcment etc.........then they walk up to the vehicle to issue the award.

And you are double correct about tradition. We went to flip helmets a couple of years ago. It was a hard sell and everyone on the motor unit hated them due to the heat in the summer. It was also bad when the liner did not come out to wash, can you say "smell".

 

[MOTOR31]

john- the full mesh summer jackets are quite cool, even in hot weather (especially once you are moving at anything above 5 mph), and offer a ton more protection than just a shirt. yeah, a bulletproof vest is good, but you're much more likely to take a hit to the hands, shoulders or arms in a get-off than you are to your central core.
'tradition" is a real hard thing to get past, even for the purpose of increased safety.

Having ridden for work as well as for pleasure I can tell you a mesh jacket in 110+ degree temps is neither cool nor comfortable when you are on duty for 10 hours, a lot of which is stationary. At some point heat exhaustion becomes more of a hazard to meeting the pavement than even traffic.

 

[motorman587]

Having ridden for work as well as for pleasure I can tell you a mesh jacket in 110+ degree temps is neither cool nor comfortable when you are on duty for 10 hours, a lot of which is stationary. At some point heat exhaustion becomes more of a hazard to meeting the pavement than even traffic.

Good point. I even have attempt to describe what a motor cop does on a day to day event. I told the person to get all your gear on on nice hot day. Stop you motorcycle get off and walk about 30 feet (stopping violator getting DL, insurance, and registration). Then walk back to your motorcycle (writing citation) and then walk back (issuing citation). Then walk back to your motorcycle and get back on. Ride some where stop, sitting on your hot motorcycle. (running laser/radar). Then do this again about 10 to 15 times in the summer at 100 plus heat. I did wear my vest everyday, even when it was 100+ outside. I kind of liked the american motorcop tradition look. It has 100 years of history behind it. I just wish that maybe the manufacture would put some motorcycle type material in those tight pants......lol