Dgt = Gone

[rkasal]

Well said, Randy.

But, until we try to do it the way it has been suggested, we are assuming that we will fail. Therefore, I propose that we all meet at the pm level and start coming up with a plan to get our campfire burning again.

If you want to work towards a solution to present to the appropriate authority, send me a pm. We'll start exchanging ideas and formulating a list of mod volunteers. We can write the rules we want to operate under and agree to abide by them. We are all adults here. There is no reason why we can't play well together even if we disagree.

Since there are supposed to be only 6 of us, this should be easy.

Or, whomever, could Push the Red Button.

Tom

I believe the members have publicly spoken loud and clear.

 

[statdawg]

Remain calm everyone. Ted has steadied the ship and even though there are impurities upon the waters lets put our differences aside. Maybe just maybe if we check our pulse we can find a way to beat the odds for the threads return. The Adv Rider argument is worthy but I enjoyed the small campfire we had going and someday wish to return to it without disturbing the organization we dearly love.

I appreciate the MOA overall and feel that the people here are highly intelligent beyond their academic base education and have attained substantial wisdom from their life experiences. Regardless of our indifferences lets please honor the guidance offered and proceed to the doorway of negotiations that are opened so slightly.

I also ask to please allow time for Ian's absence. He is riding with his talented sons and trying to maintain an image that BMW is far superior to KTM. I have met him on a few occasions and I do not think his decision to end DGT was an easy one. Please allow his space and time for his reflection. It is going to be difficult for him to face us if we are gunning for him. Lets again be receptive.

Please remain calm and lets find common ground. After all we are costing them resources to monitor this thread. Now that is funny.

 

[rkasal]

Remain calm everyone. Ted has steadied the ship and even though there are impurities upon the waters lets put our differences aside. Maybe just maybe if we check our pulse we can find a way to beat the odds for the threads return. The Adv Rider argument is worthy but I enjoyed the small campfire we had going and someday wish to return to it without disturbing the organization we dearly love.

I appreciate the MOA overall and feel that the people here are highly intelligent beyond their academic base education and have attained substantial wisdom from their life experiences. Regardless of our indifferences lets please honor the guidance offered and proceed to the doorway of negotiations that are opened so slightly.

I also ask to please allow time for Ian's absence. He is riding with his talented sons and trying to maintain an image that BMW is far superior to KTM. I have met him on a few occasions and I do not think his decision to end DGT was an easy one. Please allow his space and time for his reflection. It is going to be difficult for him to face us if we are gunning for him. Lets again be receptive.

Please remain calm and lets find common ground. After all we are costing them resources to monitor this thread. Now that is funny.

Ian isn't the problem and I hope he doesn't think that I think he is the problem. What we have is a basic leadership problem. We have a board member who has snidely attacked another member at least two times for no apparent reason. She also has a non compliant sig line that last I saw.

We have a moderator who needs to resign. We have example after example of members' concerns in various threads being dismissed.

There is also the approach taken with ending DGT and the aftermath of the closing. Lastly, there are some thin-skinned PC totalitarians who are residing in the dark corners manipulating people.

Tell me why we should reasonably expect all of that to be made better IF we were to submit some kind of suggestions for the reasons I outlined above.

This site is well-designed and DGT could be and should be back on by this time tomorrow. We can police ourselves per the suggestions above. There is no reason for any of us to jump through constantly shifting hoops.

Push the red button.

 

[oldhway]

Remain calm everyone. Ted has steadied the ship and even though there are impurities upon the waters lets put our differences aside. Maybe just maybe if we check our pulse we can find a way to beat the odds for the threads return. The Adv Rider argument is worthy but I enjoyed the small campfire we had going and someday wish to return to it without disturbing the organization we dearly love.

I appreciate the MOA overall and feel that the people here are highly intelligent beyond their academic base education and have attained substantial wisdom from their life experiences. Regardless of our indifferences lets please honor the guidance offered and proceed to the doorway of negotiations that are opened so slightly.

I also ask to please allow time for Ian's absence. He is riding with his talented sons and trying to maintain an image that BMW is far superior to KTM. I have met him on a few occasions and I do not think his decision to end DGT was an easy one. Please allow his space and time for his reflection. It is going to be difficult for him to face us if we are gunning for him. Lets again be receptive.

Please remain calm and lets find common ground. After all we are costing them resources to monitor this thread. Now that is funny.

Agreed. I'm going to sleep on it. see y'all in the AM.

 

[rkasal]

Agreed. I'm going to sleep on it. see y'all in the AM.

You're going to bed? And I thought we were light weights here going to be at 10 on a Sat. night.

 

[oldhway]

You're going to bed? And I thought we were light weights here going to be at 10 on a Sat. night.

2 family members in the hospital this week and had to play at funeral for a close family friend today followed by hosting an Open Mic tonight.

Watch a little law and order then off to lala land for this boy.

 

[rkasal]

2 family members in the hospital this week and had to play at funeral for a close family friend today followed by hosting an Open Mic tonight.

Watch a little law and order then off to lala land for this boy.

Law and Order? So you will be watching for Fred Thompson?

 

[redclfco]

published with permission

Greg,

Thanks for the reply. BMW MOA is a great organization and the DGT forum includes a group where men will be men and boys will be boys and never have a dull moment! All I ask is that an alternative to killing this free flow area of the forum might be open to discussion somehow. My hopes are that both groups, the roaches and the management leave their animosity at the door, and seek a compromise. Neither group is going away any time soon, so all might want to consider what’s good for everyone in the BMW MOA.


Dale




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Greg Feeler [mailto:gregf@e-moto.org]
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 4:07 PM
To: Red
Cc: cm@bmwmoa.org
Subject: Re: DGT



Dale,
If this were a radio call-in program, you would be the winner as the first to send anything to the C&M Committee about the DGT forum! Thanks for taking the time to write and send a well thought out argument for that kind of forum.

To be clear, although the Forum is C&M's "responsibility" we are really trying to be as hands off as possible. However, as your Board representatives we also have an obligation to the members as a whole. It's my intention for C&M to be a clearing house for messages such as yours, and work with the Forum Team to see what they can do. Nobody wants to take away something which has value to some of our members if there is a feasible why to keep it. That's the nut we need to crack.

Again, thanks for taking the time to "go though channels", and feel free to share my reply with others if you'd like.

Greg Feeler
BMW MOA Board of Directors
Chair Communications & Marketing Committee




At 02:38 PM 2/9/2008, Dale wrote:



Dear Ian and Moderators,

Thank you for even taking the time to read this, I know your hands are full, and I thank you for the hard job you do, but would like you to take a minute and pull up my posts on DGT= Gone, then read them, then come back to this email.While your there please take a few minutes to look at other comments towards the closing of DGT. If you still wish to cancel DGT, so be it. In reality, it’s not a real issue to me, I will live on and will continue to be a supporting member. I feel you guys for the most part do a heck of a job on this forum, I love it, and give you 8 out of 10 on what you do; however, I respectfully think your decision to shut down DGT was a bad move. For one, you need new young members who actually read DGT, and enjoy seeing the old dogs scrapping on the floor, and learn from it. Take it away, and ask your self what exciting do you offer on the forum? Hexheads? You have got to be kidding! The forum is great, but don’t cut off your arm here, the same appendage that attracts and retains your younger members.

Keep it away from those faint of herat. Put a password at its door that will require Members to get a password if they want to enter. Bring it back as “dysfunction junction” Make it self moderating by instituting the 7 strikes and your out, where any member participating in DF (Dysfunction Junction) feels the thread or post violates some basic decency standards can hit a button. Each “strike” will be visible to the members reading the thread, as well as the author(s). So a thread may continue until 7 participants (not lurkers) hit the buzzer.

No cussing, no nudity, no threats of violence or retribution involving person place or thing. Management reserves the right to pull the plug in their view; the policy is violated with no discussion. Malicious posts involving hitting the post button to screw with the architecture of the site will not be tolerated. Members who strike out with a post or thread 3 times your out will lose ALL membership to post on the forum. That’s right, DEATH. Up the penalty, down the rules, make it membership policing and close the door letting in only those who want to use it. Still use the label "don’t go there", and put a disclaimer on the door.

That’s my thoughts. You may hit the delete key if you want

Dale
Member #129803





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[ted]

You and I know damn well who made those threats and it was someone who wanted DGT killed.

I know nothing of the sort -- BOTH people that sent along those "love notes", one implied and one overt, I don't believe had any care for it going at all (matter of fact, one of the two is posting ON this thread.) I firmly believe a stranger walking into this and seeing the behavior and tenor of some of these posts would see no better reason for the demise of DGT and further reason for it never reappearing.

You've a path to positive change laid before you Gentlemen, the only question is whether you will take it or not.

 

[Rapid_Roy]

..... Point in case, Rapid Roy has apparently taken personally the allegation that DGT was hostile to women. Presumably someone has accused him of posting something that was offensive to women. That is a steaming pile. I challenge anyone to point to any of his posts and produce ONE that demeans or attacks women in any way. In fact, I challenge you to find ANY post on DGT which was objectively demeaning to women. Oh, you'll find plenty of posts attacking Hillary, but that as you know is not the same thing as demeaning or being hostile to women.......

I was referring to the comments Ian had linked to here:

the DGT forum has become a hostile environment, especially to women
in all honesty, this observation should be at the top of the list. i've received a number of communications, from members that i deeply respect, saying they feel uncomfortable participating in our forum and that the DGT experiment has only amplified that perception. to me, this is a huge disaster.

I am just having a hard time wrapping my mind around what was said there that made the entire forum a hostile environment for women, even in general. Especially since no women ever came in there and said we said something that made her uncomfortable. If we completely remove sex from the equation, I can see much more information that would make liberal/progressives uncomfortable, and some information that would make conservatives uncomfortable, but I truthfully do not recall any sexist type stuff that would make a woman feel it was a hostile environment. It's gone, that is fine, I just feel the "reasons" listed are not the whole truth, that is all.

I really have no desire to start up a forum that is going to irritate people who don't even post in it, nor bother to come out and explain why, to even fairly give a chance to address the issues. I imagine the idea will get a lot of resistance, as it did already. I have other much more important things to do, and really, what is the point?

 

[From MARS]

I really have no desire to start up a forum that is going to irritate people who don't even post in it, nor bother to come out and explain why, to even fairly give a chance to address the issues. I imagine the idea will get a lot of resistance, as it did already. I have other much more important things to do, and really, what is the point?

The offer to coordinate a discussion for the return of a DGT like forum has been meet with overwhelming apathy; two (2) people have expressed an interest. If we are willing to let it go, then let's just let it go. This thread should be allowed to pass into oblivion, and each participant can decide for themselves the action they will take next. Utilizing the resources of the club for such a small percentage of the membership, doesn't make good sense. As Roy said, "What's the point?"

I thought Dale's ideas held a lot of merit, and would have made an excellent starting point for discussions, but a discussion is hard to have without participants. So, RIP, DGT.

Tom

 

[rkasal]

The offer to coordinate a discussion for the return of a DGT like forum has been meet with overwhelming apathy; two (2) people have expressed an interest. If we are willing to let it go, then let's just let it go. This thread should be allowed to pass into oblivion, and each participant can decide for themselves the action they will take next. Utilizing the resources of the club for such a small percentage of the membership, doesn't make good sense. As Roy said, "What's the point?"

I thought Dale's ideas held a lot of merit, and would have made an excellent starting point for discussions, but a discussion is hard to have without participants. So, RIP, DGT.

Tom

Now hold on there. By the way, how was the ride?

We may have a moderator volunteer acceptable to all. I'll let him speak for himself if he so desires but he's ok by me. He got home late last night.

If he does accept as moderator, there would then be no valid reason to not retain DGT if we were told the truth.

One thing I think we don't want to get into is sending a letter for what we want when what we want is already known. Then we get a nice letter in return that "We in BMWMOA take our members' concerns seriously. Blah-Blah. You may rest assured we will take this concern/suggestion under advisement. Blah-Blah."

Nothing then happens except we get nice letters. Imagine them smiling nicely as the letter is written. You get the pictue.

We also collectively have had some great ideas to make this work. Keep the suggestions coming, please, in public. We may refine the ideas together and really, with a moderator, there is no reason for them to not bring back DGT. That is, if they really care about what members want.

 

[Bud]

Before I joined MOA I was on another board and there was a link to a thread about the media editor. Folks were saying how MOA was having a big fight etc.

So I came and looked.

Same thing: Sky is falling. I'm leaving. BOD a bunch of jerks. Won't listen to membership. etc. etc. etc.

Guess what, membership has continued to grow, the sky didn't fall, there have been elections to allow for new board members more in line with a different point of view.

If DGT doesn't return, I will be watching the membership numbers to look for that steep decline, when those, who threaten to quit, leave.

Or history may repeat itself and the membership will continue to grow.

Either way, we will have some new board members. Looks like it may be an interesting election season.

 

[redclfco]

The sky is falling!

Well no, the sky isn’t falling. This is an internet forum, DGT is an itty bitty part of that forum and behind the scenes, and there are enough people with enough clout that take offense to our little project that they have whipped those in charge to wiping it off the map.

Nobody individually should be charged with the moderation, only group moderation will work. It's simple! If 7 members all feel a thread or post is trash, it's gone!

What will secure the death is that it would cost dollars to program the site to allow group moderation, and I don't think the BMW MOA will spend one thin dime to redo the site to accommodate us cockroaches.

The membership wont fail, will continue to grow even if some of our fine members like Jack move on. Animosity rules! That’s not the right way, the ethical way to let this go down. But my guess is Paul is dead on; history will repeat itself.

The fault of the roaches?

Hitler threads...that’s offensive and in poor taste...If I had a 1/7th button to kill that thread, it would have been pushed from the front end.

Nude pictures and references to degrade women...there I go with the first of seven it would take to kill that pig thread... (not you Roy, I have NEVER heard anything out of your mouth to even remotely set up an accusation toward you!)

We offended members with juvenile "boys will be boys" comments that have alienated the fair sex out of DGT.

The trouble, Mr. Moderators is now those "men transformed to roaches" are going to be crawling over the rest of your site, multiplying over night, disrupting your fine community here at the BMWMOA. What to do now? Nothing?

Cause you refuse to give them a home...

 

[kreinke]

This roach is out

The trouble, Mr. Moderators is now those "men transformed to roaches" are going to be crawling over the rest of your site, multiplying over night, dirupting your fine community

Cause you refuse to give them a home...

Not me. Except for the Morning Reads, Oilheads, and Ride Reports, I'm cashing in my chips.

I'm going spend more time on ADV and Wisconsinmotorcycling.com

 

[Bud]

The trouble, Mr. Moderators is now those "men transformed to roaches" are going to be crawling over the rest of your site, multiplying over night, dirupting your fine community

Cause you refuse to give them a home...

That speaks for itself.

 

[Rapid_Roy]

That speaks for itself.

I thought it was a funny analogy, but you seem to take it to heart that the people who posted there were "roaches"?
That hardly seems in the spirit of the BMWMOA, but thank you for making your feelings clear. I won't consider the people who don't agree with my opinion in the same fashion, but whatever floats your boat.

Somebody please give him this message, as I have a different opinion than him so I may be on his ignore list.

 

[redclfco]

Roy! You got me confused, my friend! This old hick did not want to offend anyone!

I am one of the roaches, I thought that was clear. I am saddened that somebody (especially you) found offense in that analogy.

Roaches seemed to fit, and I'm not out there to offend, but it seems that those who used DGT had this in common with the roach, thus I have kept it up. Sorry. I was not calling anyone a name any more than I was leveling myself with the name.


I'm going to stop here, and disclaim myself. I apologise to anyone offended by the roach comparison, I will quit.

I will be open to working behind the scenes to reopen a place on the forum for free flow conversation and banter.

the end

 

[RUSSBRITT]

That speaks for itself.

I love the open minded liberals that love discussion, if you agree with them.
But start name calling if you don`t. I for one have never thought of anyone on this forum as less than human. But I did really like DGT , even thought I just found it last week.
The reason I just found it , I have been a BMWO member for several years, I have always found most of the posts ever so boring.
I enjoying comuncation with people with different ideas....as long as they don`t call names (roaches) thats what you do when you are losing a discussion.
Yes I admitt it I am a conserative.....where most of the moderators apear to be very liberal.

Please don`t make this site a place for only those you agree with....
If you do, both you you will will get lonely....

 

[visian]

.... disrupting your fine community here at the BMWMOA.

the intent behind these words simply does not reflect the values of our club, nor does it further the interests of our club.

it just sucks.

ian

forum liaison