Dgt = Gone

[BUBBAZANETTI]

Response to post 131

Hello,

I'm going to have to say, for the sake of saving key strokes, that my answer pretty much mirrors Ted's. The decision to kill DGT had little to do with left or right, pc vs non pc, but the amount of constant attention it required from the moderators (including myself).
As a club to which YOU, the membership, pays dues, we are held to a much higher standard than a free site like ADV. We can't just ban you or delete your posts at will. (and by "your" i'm referring to EVERYONE here) We can't just tell you to shut up or that you're a moron. The weight of procedure and doing things in a diligent and thoughtful way take up a lot of time, and frankly, a "hot" forum like DGT just requires WAY too much of this. Keeping the talk to motorcycles or food or photos of your favorite things does not. My support of elimination of DGT has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with bureaucracy.

 

[Rapid_Roy]

Obviously, they are everywhere. I just prefer not to see them.

Yep.

That is why a separate section was created and called Don't go there.
So people didn't see them.
Unfortunately, some felt the urge to "peek"and although they felt no desire to comment, they did feel offended enough to send pm's and complain about the titles of threads, not even the content. Why did they go there when they were told not to? Do people really think everyone here thinks alike, and get offended if somebody has a different opinion than theirs?
Especially when they were told not to read it?

 

[Rapid_Roy]

Hello,

I'm going to have to say, for the sake of saving key strokes, that my answer pretty much mirrors Ted's. The decision to kill DGT had little to do with left or right, pc vs non pc, but the amount of constant attention it required from the moderators (including myself).
As a club to which YOU, the membership, pays dues, we are held to a much higher standard than a free site like ADV. We can't just ban you or delete your posts at will. (and by "your" i'm referring to EVERYONE here) We can't just tell you to shut up or that you're a moron. The weight of procedure and doing things in a diligent and thoughtful way take up a lot of time, and frankly, a "hot" forum like DGT just requires WAY too much of this. Keeping the talk to motorcycles or food or photos of your favorite things does not. My support of elimination of DGT has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with bureaucracy.

Did you delete any of the posters comments in DGT, or have to send daily pms to people to tell them to tone it down, or were the bulk of the duties responding to pm's from people who were offended by what was posted? I am just curious, as I never received any pm's about anything. That is why I am curious what I possibly could have said to make women forum members here uncomfortable (and if I did, I again apologize, that was never my intent, to make anybody uncomfortable here, but I really have no idea what could have in what I posted).

 

[BUBBAZANETTI]

Did you delete any of the posters comments in DGT, or have to send daily pms to people to tell them to tone it down, or were the bulk of the duties responding to pm's from people who were offended by what was posted? I am just curious, as I never received any pm's about anything. That is why I am curious what I possibly could have said to make women forum members here uncomfortable (and if I did, I again apologize, that was never my intent, to make anybody uncomfortable here, but I really have no idea what could have in what I posted).

pms are a fairly big part of it. asking people nicely to moderate themselves, rather than us doing it is the way i prefer to work. some of it was response to inquires, more of it was reactive to stuff on the forum itself.

 

[gregfeeler]

The way in is the way out.

All,

The other matter is, why should anyone have to petition a committee when it is apparent that the club does not care what the members want?

This is a classic "I would do something but it wouldn't help, so I'll just complain" argument. Patently false. First, people in this organization do listen to constructive input - just ask those who have tried it - there are many on the forum overall, but too few participating in this thread. Good ideas with suggestions of implementation, and consideration about the impact on the rest of the club as a whole always get a hearing. I've been on the 'MOA Board for close to five years and have never seen an exception to that statement.

Secondly, call it petitioning if you want, but I would call it submitting your input the way it will get heard. The forum is not the way, folks. You have three or four Board members who post who post here, but many limit it or avoid it all together because it becomes a trap for them. You provide a reasoned explanation or commentary, but someone disagrees and with apparently more time on their hands than you, continues to post and post and post in the hopes of getting their way. This particular thread is becoming an example of this. Is that how the rest of you would want your leadership to make decisions affecting your organization?

Further, why should anyone petition a committee or "offer suggestions" when it is clear what the members want? People on both sides of the aisle and the middle want DGT.

A poll on a forum, especially one like DGT is far from scientific. "People on both sides of the aisle and the middle want DGT." only says some people with widely differing opinions supported DGT, not that it was more or less popular.

Folks - the reasons for the closure have been given by the mod team. They are good reasons, but you may disagree with them. Do not make the mistake of believing that just because someone decides against your idea they didn't give it a lot of consideration.

Further, some excellent suggestions have been made about how to approach either the moderation team or the Board with your reasons why DGT should be reinstated, and how to address the problems motivating it's removal. So far, I haven't received a single communication in any from (other than this thread) from any of the people here who want DGT back. Again - "I'd try but it wouldn't do any good" just doesn't wash. For the record, you can send directly to the Communications and Marketing Committee here: cm@bmwmoa.org.

If you were making the decisions, and on the one hand had a team of experienced volunteers donating their time to do a difficult job, and on the other hand there where a small number of folks complaining something was taken from them but who had not offered a solution - who's views would weight the most? Which would be the stronger if this were a court case? Again, every time you advocate something you need to consider how it affects the club as a whole - because if you don't then someone else will have to.

This is my last post on this thread for the reasons above. However, it is not the end of my interest, and my "door" is open by PM or email.

 

[redclfco]

Letter to the powers above

Dear Ian and Moderators,

Thank you for even taking the time to read this, I know your hands are full, and I thank you for the hard job you do, but would like you to take a minute and pull up my posts on DGT= Gone, then read them, then come back to this email.While your there please take a few minutes to look at other comments towards the closing of DGT. If you still wish to cancel DGT, so be it. In reality, it’s not a real issue to me, I will live on and will continue to be a supporting member. I feel you guys for the most part do a heck of a job on this forum, I love it, and give you 8 out of 10 on what you do; however, I respectfully think your decision to shut down DGT was a bad move. For one, you need new young members who actually read DGT, and enjoy seeing the old dogs scrapping on the floor, and learn from it. Take it away, and ask your self what exciting do you offer on the forum? Hexheads? You have got to be kidding! The forum is great, but don’t cut off your arm here, the same appendage that attracts and retains your younger members.

Keep it away from those faint of heart. Put a password at its door that will require Members to get a password if they want to enter. Bring it back as “dysfunction junction” Make it self moderating by instituting the 7 strikes and your out, where any member participating in DFJ (Dysfunction Junction) feels the thread or post violates some basic decency standards can hit a button. Each “strike” will be visible to the members reading the thread, as well as the author(s). So a thread may continue until 7 participants (not lurkers) hit the buzzer.

No cussing, no nudity, no threats of violence or retribution involving person place or thing. Management reserves the right to pull the plug in their view; the policy is violated with no discussion. Malicious posts involving hitting the post button to screw with the architecture of the site will not be tolerated. Members who strike out with a post or thread 3 times your out will lose ALL membership to post on the forum. That’s right, DEATH. Up the penalty, down the rules, make it membership policing and close the door letting in only those who want to use it. Still use the label "don’t go there", and put a disclaimer on the door.

That’s my thoughts. You may hit the delete key if you want

 

[oldhway]

All,



This is a classic "I would do something but it wouldn't help, so I'll just complain" argument. Patently false. First, people in this organization do listen to constructive input - just ask those who have tried it - there are many on the forum overall, but too few participating in this thread. Good ideas with suggestions of implementation, and consideration about the impact on the rest of the club as a whole always get a hearing. I've been on the 'MOA Board for close to five years and have never seen an exception to that statement.

Secondly, call it petitioning if you want, but I would call it submitting your input the way it will get heard. The forum is not the way, folks. You have three or four Board members who post who post here, but many limit it or avoid it all together because it becomes a trap for them. You provide a reasoned explanation or commentary, but someone disagrees and with apparently more time on their hands than you, continues to post and post and post in the hopes of getting their way. This particular thread is becoming an example of this. Is that how the rest of you would want your leadership to make decisions affecting your organization?





A poll on a forum, especially one like DGT is far from scientific. "People on both sides of the aisle and the middle want DGT." only says some people with widely differing opinions supported DGT, not that it was more or less popular.

Folks - the reasons for the closure have been given by the mod team. They are good reasons, but you may disagree with them. Do not make the mistake of believing that just because someone decides against your idea they didn't give it a lot of consideration.

Further, some excellent suggestions have been made about how to approach either the moderation team or the Board with your reasons why DGT should be reinstated, and how to address the problems motivating it's removal. So far, I haven't received a single communication in any from (other than this thread) from any of the people here who want DGT back. Again - "I'd try but it wouldn't do any good" just doesn't wash. For the record, you can send directly to the Communications and Marketing Committee here: cm@bmwmoa.org.

If you were making the decisions, and on the one hand had a team of experienced volunteers donating their time to do a difficult job, and on the other hand there where a small number of folks complaining something was taken from them but who had not offered a solution - who's views would weight the most? Which would be the stronger if this were a court case? Again, every time you advocate something you need to consider how it affects the club as a whole - because if you don't then someone else will have to.

This is my last post on this thread for the reasons above. However, it is not the end of my interest, and my "door" is open by PM or email.

For the record: In Post #131 I outlined a possible, workable solution to continueing with a DGT type form. I also volunteered to be involved in the moderation of that forum. I then contacted all the people listed under the "Forum Leadership" at the bottom of the Forum main page and asked them to look at the ideas in post #131 and respond.

For the most part the response I have seen is that "Forum Leadership" are the wrong people to contact about Forum issues (at least this forum issue). I have also read that nobody has posted a potential solution which is what I thought I had done. Lastly it has been said that no one has volunteered to shoulder the load. I'm not sure how else to word that I am willing other than when I said "I am willing".

And so I believe those of us who would like to continue this discussion should now email or PM the the Communication and Marketing committee as we have been instructed to do. Not to be ugly about this but to offer workable solutions and volunteer time.

If the reaction at that time appears to be a stonewall, as it has sometimes felt in this post, well then maybe I have to rethink my own involvement. I can handle a disscussion that I loose, I'm not interested in a disscussion that I am invited to participate in only to hear "sorry it's already decided".

 

[oldhway]

Dear Ian and Moderators,

Thank you for even taking the time to read this, I know your hands are full, and I thank you for the hard job you do, but would like you to take a minute and pull up my posts on DGT= Gone, then read them, then come back to this email.While your there please take a few minutes to look at other comments towards the closing of DGT. If you still wish to cancel DGT, so be it. In reality, itÔÇÖs not a real issue to me, I will live on and will continue to be a supporting member. I feel you guys for the most part do a heck of a job on this forum, I love it, and give you 8 out of 10 on what you do; however, I respectfully think your decision to shut down DGT was a bad move. For one, you need new young members who actually read DGT, and enjoy seeing the old dogs scrapping on the floor, and learn from it. Take it away, and ask your self what exciting do you offer on the forum? Hexheads? You have got to be kidding! The forum is great, but donÔÇÖt cut off your arm here, the same appendage that attracts and retains your younger members.

Keep it away from those faint of heart. Put a password at its door that will require Members to get a password if they want to enter. Bring it back as ÔÇ£dysfunction junctionÔÇØ Make it self moderating by instituting the 7 strikes and your out, where any member participating in DFJ (Dysfunction Junction) feels the thread or post violates some basic decency standards can hit a button. Each ÔÇ£strikeÔÇØ will be visible to the members reading the thread, as well as the author(s). So a thread may continue until 7 participants (not lurkers) hit the buzzer.

No cussing, no nudity, no threats of violence or retribution involving person place or thing. Management reserves the right to pull the plug in their view; the policy is violated with no discussion. Malicious posts involving hitting the post button to screw with the architecture of the site will not be tolerated. Members who strike out with a post or thread 3 times your out will lose ALL membership to post on the forum. ThatÔÇÖs right, DEATH. Up the penalty, down the rules, make it membership policing and close the door letting in only those who want to use it. Still use the label "donÔÇÖt go there", and put a disclaimer on the door.

ThatÔÇÖs my thoughts. You may hit the delete key if you want

+1, Another potential solution. There are people here willing to sing for their supper. Please at least sleep on it rather than rejecting it out of hand.

 

[JCABRANES]

Dear Ian and Moderators,

Thank you for even taking the time to read this, I know your hands are full, and I thank you for the hard job you do, but would like you to take a minute and pull up my posts on DGT= Gone, then read them, then come back to this email.While your there please take a few minutes to look at other comments towards the closing of DGT. If you still wish to cancel DGT, so be it. In reality, it’s not a real issue to me, I will live on and will continue to be a supporting member. I feel you guys for the most part do a heck of a job on this forum, I love it, and give you 8 out of 10 on what you do; however, I respectfully think your decision to shut down DGT was a bad move. For one, you need new young members who actually read DGT, and enjoy seeing the old dogs scrapping on the floor, and learn from it. Take it away, and ask your self what exciting do you offer on the forum? Hexheads? You have got to be kidding! The forum is great, but don’t cut off your arm here, the same appendage that attracts and retains your younger members.

Keep it away from those faint of heart. Put a password at its door that will require Members to get a password if they want to enter. Bring it back as “dysfunction junction” Make it self moderating by instituting the 7 strikes and your out, where any member participating in DFJ (Dysfunction Junction) feels the thread or post violates some basic decency standards can hit a button. Each “strike” will be visible to the members reading the thread, as well as the author(s). So a thread may continue until 7 participants (not lurkers) hit the buzzer.

No cussing, no nudity, no threats of violence or retribution involving person place or thing. Management reserves the right to pull the plug in their view; the policy is violated with no discussion. Malicious posts involving hitting the post button to screw with the architecture of the site will not be tolerated. Members who strike out with a post or thread 3 times your out will lose ALL membership to post on the forum. That’s right, DEATH. Up the penalty, down the rules, make it membership policing and close the door letting in only those who want to use it. Still use the label "don’t go there", and put a disclaimer on the door.

That’s my thoughts. You may hit the delete key if you want

Red,

I'm with you brother but you are talking to the proverbial wall. The powers that be have closed ranks and we can complain and bitch all we want and they are just going to laugh us off.

Frankly, from my point of view when it comes time to renew my membership I have to consider what the MOA brings to the table. The Rally... I can attend without being a member. The Anonymous Book... nice but there are other similar services for free such as the Touring Assistant service on mctourer.com. The website... again nice but there is always bmwlt.com. The magazine... again nice but not the main reason for being in a club. For me the main reason is to have fun with people of similar interests. Agree or disagree with the positions taken in the various DGT threads most of the paricipants enjoyed locking horns. We spend a few moments each day checking up on the antics of our fellow inmates (for example I now know what Kreinke's body looks like though not in gold) and find out interesting facts regarding the Duke prosecutor's bankruptcy. The only member that I can think about that came to DGT looking for trouble (you all know who I'm talking about) just did so in the last couple of weeks abused just about everyone and interestingly enough threatened Visian with taking him to the BOD because he didn't care for the posts on DGT. That was the only true a$$hat I saw in the roughly 90 days DGT existed. I don't believe in coincidences and I do not think it is a coincidence that soon after the threats (which by the way have been referred to in some of the posts explaining why DGT was eliminated) started we have an elimination of DGT. But I digress, the point is when I decide whether to renew my membership I need to decide if I want to be part of a group where a small group of people decide to throw their weight around because they can or a group that is responsive to the concerns and/or wishes of the membership. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way.

 

[From MARS]

Sorry but I need to get stronger glasses to split that hair. No matter what side of the argument your on I didn't think setting up fellow members to get 'punk'd' is what we think we are about around here.

Thank you. I couldn't have said it any better.

I have been an active member of the DGT crowd. My participation in the discussions have led to even more interesting backdoor communications with other members. On my recent trip, I met a fellow BMW rider, in Las Cruces, who is not a member of our club. When I queried him about his being a member, he said that he was a new owner, having owned his R1200RT for a little over a year, and wasn't aware of the club. Because of my enjoyment of the forum and the virtual relationships I have formed with some of my fellow members, I encouraged him to check us out. DGT was largely responsible for this suggestion since it was through participating in the discussions there that formed a "bond" between myself and the other participants. I had fun in DGT. Now if I have to tell someone that, "Yeah there's a lot of good stuff there, but be careful what you say caused its a closed society and some get easily offended," what kind of an impression is that going to make? I don't even think I would mention club membership now.

As Statdawg said, we weren't given any notice of the deletion of DGT. I find the timing, shortly after the close of the nomination period for the board of directors, to be a little suspect; especially when we are told by a board member that we should run for the board if we don't like the decision. How many platform submissions would have added a statement about this action if it had been taken prior to the closing of the nominations? We'll never know.

Its a good thing it happened now, after I sent in my membership renewal check. I am perfectly capable of deciding what I wish to read and what I don't. I do not need, nor do I want, anyone making that decision for me. Had this action been taken sooner, the club would have $54 less dollars with which to work. Maybe something will happen over the next year to change my mind, but right now, I think this organization has received it's last check from me.

Tom

 

[ted]

I'm with you brother but you are talking to the proverbial wall. The powers that be have closed ranks and we can complain and bitch all we want and they are just going to laugh us off.

You are right about one thing - you can indeed "complain and bitch" all you want and you are not likely to change anyone's mind. What will change minds is a well thought proposal with an objective, details for implementation and ongoing maintenance, and a commitment by volunteers necessary to keep it going.

Complaining is just that. Why not volunteer the time and effort to make change instead of just complaining that someone else isn't doing things the way you want them done? Why not instead get together with a few of the other impassioned folks, plan out how you can make DGT2 a reality (mindful of avoiding the pitfalls that killed DGT1), and commit yourselves to keeping it running? I've already made a few suggestions, take them as inspiration or start with a fresh sheet of paper. If the Board of Directors turns you down, address the concerns and try again.

 

[statdawg]

Ted I think you are going to need a stick.

 

[Rapid_Roy]

You are right about one thing - you can indeed "complain and bitch" all you want and you are not likely to change anyone's mind.

But......but.....but....it worked so well for shutting down DGT.


Simply push the little red button to restore DGT.

 

[USERNAME]

it's nice to see this thread getting constructive.

I have to confess, I trolled to expose a couple of people. I felt it was important to create an example of the vitriol for members that may not have read DGT.

Just like anyone else, I am subject to the rules. Therefore I have sanctioned myself and given myself moderation warning #1.

 

[JCABRANES]

You are right about one thing - you can indeed "complain and bitch" all you want and you are not likely to change anyone's mind. What will change minds is a well thought proposal with an objective, details for implementation and ongoing maintenance, and a commitment by volunteers necessary to keep it going.

Complaining is just that. Why not volunteer the time and effort to make change instead of just complaining that someone else isn't doing things the way you want them done? Why not instead get together with a few of the other impassioned folks, plan out how you can make DGT2 a reality (mindful of avoiding the pitfalls that killed DGT1), and commit yourselves to keeping it running? I've already made a few suggestions, take them as inspiration or start with a fresh sheet of paper. If the Board of Directors turns you down, address the concerns and try again.

Ted,

I have no beef with you as your posts have always made their point without engaging in personal attacks. However, two members have made intelligent, well thought out suggestions and to this point (granted its been less than 24 hours) they may as well have been talking to a wall. My bet is that neither of those suggestions will be seriously considered.

Just so the record is clear, most of us are upset not just because DGT was axed, but also with the heavy handed way this has been handled. Point in case, Rapid Roy has apparently taken personally the allegation that DGT was hostile to women. Presumably someone has accused him of posting something that was offensive to women. That is a steaming pile. I challenge anyone to point to any of his posts and produce ONE that demeans or attacks women in any way. In fact, I challenge you to find ANY post on DGT which was objectively demeaning to women. Oh, you'll find plenty of posts attacking Hillary, but that as you know is not the same thing as demeaning or being hostile to women. Next is the allegation that threats were made to the moderators. You and I know damn well who made those threats and it was someone who wanted DGT killed. I need not comment on the complete lack of courage exhibited in caving to that kind of behavior since it is apparent to all. The bottom line here is that the thin skinned, perpetually offended, PC crowd wins. As you may have noted in some of the earlier posts, those of us that don't like it are encouraged to leave. Like I said... heavy handed and frankly, not calculated to smooth any ruffled feathers.

I hope you are right Ted and there is room for discussion. I don't see it and based on what I have seen so far I would bet against it, but I do hope you are right.

 

[JCABRANES]

it's nice to see this thread getting constructive.

I have to confess, I trolled to expose a couple of people. I felt it was important to create an example of the vitriol for members that may not have read DGT.

Just like anyone else, I am subject to the rules. Therefore I have sanctioned myself and given myself moderation warning #1.

Not good enough by far. As a moderator you should be held to a higher standard. I do however note the smug tone which tells me and everyone else that you know there are no reprecussions to your actions.

 

[rkasal]

it's nice to see this thread getting constructive.

I have to confess, I trolled to expose a couple of people. I felt it was important to create an example of the vitriol for members that may not have read DGT.

Just like anyone else, I am subject to the rules. Therefore I have sanctioned myself and given myself moderation warning #1.

You should no longer be a moderator. Your "reason," if there may be a valid reason for trolling, differs slightly from your intial statement. You now write that you also wanted "...and example of the vitriol for members that may not have read DGT." Why is this your desire? It seems your intent was to help further bury DGT.

Sanction yourself further, and resign.

 

[rkasal]

Most people, if they get poor service in a restaurant, won't say anything. They simply will not return, particularly if they believe their concerns will be poo-poohed.

For those who do complain, it would be absurd for the restaurant staff to request a written statement of their concerns or more bizzare, how the customer would do things differently. That is obviously not good customer service.

We, as members or customers of BMWMOA have clearly told you, the management, that the situation is intolerable and we have clearly told you what we wish done. We do not have to write up any statements.

To date, the management has without a doubt illustrated that they will not listen. Thus, it would be insane for anyone to spend the time or effort to jump through constantly changing hoops for invalid reasons to obtain pre-ordained results.

Push the red button.

 

[statdawg]

it's nice to see this thread getting constructive.

I have to confess, I trolled to expose a couple of people. I felt it was important to create an example of the vitriol for members that may not have read DGT.

Just like anyone else, I am subject to the rules. Therefore I have sanctioned myself and given myself moderation warning #1.

I am sorry Username to taking your negative comments personally. Please except my apologies for lacking the full knowledge of your mission. I also I believe I am far from a troll, an ass-hat, or a...................... If you wish I will accept whatever penalty assessed for my transgression towards you and the MOA.

Thank You Username for your contribution to the MOA and your thankless power trip Mod performance. If I can find one I will buy you a ten gallon ass-hat as gesture of peace. Do you want one with a Donkey or Elephant on it ?

 

[From MARS]

Most people, if they get poor service in a restaurant, won't say anything. They simply will not return, particularly if they believe their concerns will be poo-poohed.

For those who do complain, it would be absurd for the restaurant staff to request a written statement of their concerns or more bizzare, how the customer would do things differently. That is obviously not good customer service.

We, as members or customers of BMWMOA have clearly told you, the management, that the situation is intolerable and we have clearly told you what we wish done. We do not have to write up any statements.

To date, the management has without a doubt illustrated that they will not listen. Thus, it would be insane for anyone to spend the time or effort to jump through constantly changing hoops for invalid reasons to obtain pre-ordained results.

Push the red button.

Well said, Randy.

But, until we try to do it the way it has been suggested, we are assuming that we will fail. Therefore, I propose that we all meet at the pm level and start coming up with a plan to get our campfire burning again.

If you want to work towards a solution to present to the appropriate authority, send me a pm. We'll start exchanging ideas and formulating a list of mod volunteers. We can write the rules we want to operate under and agree to abide by them. We are all adults here. There is no reason why we can't play well together even if we disagree.

Since there are supposed to be only 6 of us, this should be easy.

Or, whomever, could Push the Red Button.

Tom