I looked at a Honda st 1300 yesterday .The fit was a little off and they offered me only $3200.00 for a trade in price on my BMW .
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2001 surger
- Thread starter EGG-3
- Start date
I looked at a Honda st 1300 yesterday .The fit was a little off and they offered me only $3200.00 for a trade in price on my BMW .
I just picked up a 2000 RT with low miles, 11,500~. The bike checked out and I did not notice any surging but to be honest I am not sure how it would actually manifest while riding. Anyway my point is I paid 4000 for it, so 3200 from a dealer is not that bad and they won't care about the surging issue. Sell it to a private buyer and you will get more but how much more with the surging issue. I am using my recent search as a reference point. And have found overall that private parties are asking about 4000-4300 for 2000-2001 model years and they have about 33-45k mikes on them. Good luck with your decision.
jammess
Jammess
I know where Driggs is. In my former life I used to maintain the two way radio system in Yellowstone and that meant going down to Beckler Rngr. Station on occasion going in by way of Ashton. I might just pay you a visit. Too bad Boise is too far for you as Big Twin is a great dealership. We just rescued a very small kitten and are bottle feeding and might be hard to escape right now but will check with significant person. I just love that part of the country, how lucky you are. If we can make it will probably not ride the m/c but drive the '11 Mustang GT, it's faster. Hey, significant person says go for it! Yes, would be good if Roger could go. See you tomorrow morning!
I was doubting myself since I am new to BMW. Last Fall I acquired a 2011RT and love it. So when someone pulled out in front of my brother and totaled his Triumph Sprint I started looking around for him. And since I joined the BMW ranks from Ducati I thought why not bring him over as well. Since he is a teacher in the People's Republik of Kalifornia I thought I would help him out and began my quest to get him a bike. I have searched for a couple of months now and looked at all kinds of BMWs. But this one seemd to tick all the boxes except for a few scuffs on the bags and a bit of blistering on the underside of the fairing where the exhaust gets close. PO must have let it over heat but other than that everything else was in order. He acquired it in 2005 as the second owner with 5000 mikes on it from the BMW dealer in Austin. With a new baby he figures he will ride it even less. I will do the 12000 mile service on it myself with the help of this forum and I now feel much better about my selection. But the proof will be when I ride it back to Californnia to him in the next couple of weeks.
That's a huge score! Nice job.
roger 04 rt
New member
Hi Earle,
Here are two places that can clean and report on your injectors. They have both been recommended to me but I have not yet used either of them.
RC Engineering
Marren Injection
What is confusing me about your motorcycle is the following:
--You seem to have done an excellent job cleaning the TBs, balancing them and adjusting the valves. That should be enough on the "air" side of the AFR equation if that is what is causing your surging.
--Surges with the O2 and CCP in, with or without the BoosterPlug. Not that surprising since many R1100s and single-spark R1150s do, to some degree. This suggests that your motorcyle doesn't run well with an AFR of 14.7:1.
--Surges with CCP pulled and BoosterPlug installed. This should add several percent to the Open Loop fueling tables and produce a mixture that your R1100 likes--less than 13.8:1. (Double check that you've reset the Motronic by pulling its correct fuse for a minute.) So what could keep the Open Loop fueling from being richened by a pulled CCP? Allow me to speculate.
--Low fuel pressure: For every percent that fuel pressure drops below the design level of 43.5 PSI (someone correct me if the 1100 is different), the mixture gets leaner by half a percent. A 10% low Fuel Pressure Regulator would lean out Open Loop fueling by 5%. My understanding is that FPRs are not that accurate. With all you've done, I would measure the Fuel Pressure next.
--Injectors: From what I've read and heard from RC and Marren above they could be +/- 4% rich or lean.
--I believe your fuel is 10% ethanol. You can't easily change that. It is roughly 4% leaner than pure-gasoline.
When you are Closed Loop, the Motronic, using the O2 sensor as feedback, adds or subtracts fuel until it finds the amount needed to bracket 14.7:1 AFR. That means it can correct for a low FPR, low injectors and ethanol in the fuel. But it won't get any richer than 14.7 because that is its mandate by design.
Then you pull the CCP, and add a BoosterPlug. The BoosterPlug adds 6% to the stock fuel tables, the pulled CCP (based on CO measurement) adds 4% for a total enrichment of 10%. The enleaning factors are 4% for ethanol fuel, perhaps 4% for injectors and perhaps 5% for fuel pump/FPR would leave you ...
possibly 3% leaner with the CCP pulled AND a BoosterPlug installed compared to Closed Loop.
That's a lot of words to make the case for measuring the fuel pressure first and the fuel injectors second.
You still have the option of adding a PowerCommander or Innovate Motorsports LC-1. I know from my own tests that the Motronic and LC-1 have no problem adding 10 or 15% to the fueling if it is needed. Although it is a big jump to go there next.
nrpetersen
Curmudgeon
I still think EGGs problem is the throttle stop settings. I contend the wide open throttle operation (and not the minimum flow near closed throttle) would be rough if it was a partially plugged injector.
Wish I could have a crack at it too.
Wish I could have a crack at it too.
roger 04 rt
New member
It still could be some tiny error of the airflow adjustments but he has worked on that pretty carefully.
Someone's motorcycle is going to have lower flow injectors than average, and lower fuel pump pressure than average, I'm describing cumulative percent errors, not a partial plugging or something like that. He also runs E10 I believe. Dropping several percent on the fuel at WOT could lead to pinging but might just lead to lower HP and no rough running. The AFR at WOT is about 12.5 to 1. 10% too lean would still give you a mixture of 13.7:1--not great, but driveable.
Food for thought.
Someone's motorcycle is going to have lower flow injectors than average, and lower fuel pump pressure than average, I'm describing cumulative percent errors, not a partial plugging or something like that. He also runs E10 I believe. Dropping several percent on the fuel at WOT could lead to pinging but might just lead to lower HP and no rough running. The AFR at WOT is about 12.5 to 1. 10% too lean would still give you a mixture of 13.7:1--not great, but driveable.
Food for thought.
nrpetersen
Curmudgeon
Roger - But wouldn't the processor use the oxygen sensor feedback to modify the injector pulse length map to offset the different calibration of the injector flow rates (or the fuel rail pressures etc)?
What is the typical range of injector pulse map offsets used in closed loop operation? I guessing maybe 2:1 but I have no basis for that other than a wild guess.
What is the typical range of injector pulse map offsets used in closed loop operation? I guessing maybe 2:1 but I have no basis for that other than a wild guess.
roger 04 rt
New member
nrp,
Yes, you're correct. In Closed Loop operation, the O2 sensor and Motronic can add quite a lot of fuel, the number is something like 20 or 25% more (or less) fuel than what it expects to have to use (based on the TPS, RPM, Air Temp, Barometric Pressure and Battery Voltage). But no matter how much fuel the Motronic adds or subtracts, the cruise AFR will be about 14.7:1. Some motorcycles seem to be finicky about operating at that leanness (maybe even many of them).
So if you're one of the unlucky people who have perfectly matched the left and right TBs, valves etc and your motorcycle (an 1100 in this case) still has some type of surge and you pull the CCP and add a boosterplug and expect a richer mixture. But,
You're unlucky enough to have E10, slightly lean injectors and somewhat lower fuel pressure. You still end up with a lean mixture. Look at the top curve below, my own motorcycle, running e10 is fairly lean when Open Loop (most of the curve is leaner than 14.7:1, the lower curve is open loop after adding a BP).
At this point, you need something like a PC III, Tech or LC-1. The beauty of the LC-1 is that it does its magic by making use of the ability of the Motronic to make that 20 or 25% adjustment I mentioned earlier. But before going there, I think it would be wise for EGG to measure the Fuel Pressure, just in case.
rb
nrpetersen
Curmudgeon
But how are you able to discern what's happening in each cylinder? Isn't your measurement system only able to determine the average A/F ratio?
I would guess maybe a +20/-30% F/A ratio to still fire, but going beyond this the chance of misfire would be substantial. One cylinder dropping out of a two cylinder engine is gonna make quite a hiccup.
I'd like to believe a meeting at BMW has worked this same issue. I have a funny feeling it hasn't.
I would guess maybe a +20/-30% F/A ratio to still fire, but going beyond this the chance of misfire would be substantial. One cylinder dropping out of a two cylinder engine is gonna make quite a hiccup.
I'd like to believe a meeting at BMW has worked this same issue. I have a funny feeling it hasn't.
Today I am at the Firestation out on a training drill and I see this real nice 2011 mustang GT pull up with Oregon plates. The driver gets out and asked is Earle around? Guess who?
Wow I can not belive it is for real.So he takes the bike for a ride and we toned out to a call ,When we get back he had a grin on his and said it surges what are you doing tomorrow?
Guess what we are doing tomorrow? 2001 RT1100 class 101 in my shop. This site is freeking unreal,Where else would a guy drive 7 hours one way to help someone out.Time to stock up on the Coors Lite!!!!
I am sure you will be fully updated on what I missed and what makes the old RT purr again.I just hope someday that I can help someone out and that this will solve thhe dreaded SURGE..
roger 04 rt
New member
Just finished retreading the kitten rescue to my wife, followed by the arrival scene.
Very impressive guys. Best wishes. Best luck. We'll all be interested to hear how you progress. RB
Very impressive guys. Best wishes. Best luck. We'll all be interested to hear how you progress. RB
jammess
Jammess
Hi guys,
I kind of think doing the TB stop screw adjust for balance and idle RPM with BBS screws turned out 1-1/4 turns is not a bad idea and I suggested this to Earl. Oh Roger, sent you an e-mail. As I explained to Roger that the gas tank had a partial vacuum because the previous owner for some strange reason saw fit to plug the vent line with a 1/4" bolt. I believe this hastened the demise of the fuel pump and may have contributed to the surge problem. The previous owner had at one time removed the fuel pump assy. and had even managed to pinch several wires in the process of reinstalling. At any rate, I think Earl will be fine and I will continue to help him any way I can. Kind of a rough beginning for a guy with his first beemer especially coming from a Harley.
Wasn't a bad trip since Idaho allows speeds up to 85 mph. Went past two staters sitting in the median without so much as a look. Like Oregon's 65 mph limit better though, less fatigue.
Oh, kitten is doing great! Eating and drinking on her own.
I kind of think doing the TB stop screw adjust for balance and idle RPM with BBS screws turned out 1-1/4 turns is not a bad idea and I suggested this to Earl. Oh Roger, sent you an e-mail. As I explained to Roger that the gas tank had a partial vacuum because the previous owner for some strange reason saw fit to plug the vent line with a 1/4" bolt. I believe this hastened the demise of the fuel pump and may have contributed to the surge problem. The previous owner had at one time removed the fuel pump assy. and had even managed to pinch several wires in the process of reinstalling. At any rate, I think Earl will be fine and I will continue to help him any way I can. Kind of a rough beginning for a guy with his first beemer especially coming from a Harley.
Wasn't a bad trip since Idaho allows speeds up to 85 mph. Went past two staters sitting in the median without so much as a look. Like Oregon's 65 mph limit better though, less fatigue.
Oh, kitten is doing great! Eating and drinking on her own.
roger 04 rt
New member
Hi guys,
I kind of think doing the TB stop screw adjust for balance and idle RPM with BBS screws turned out 1-1/4 turns is not a bad idea and I suggested this to Earl. Oh Roger, sent you an e-mail. As I explained to Roger that the gas tank had a partial vacuum because the previous owner for some strange reason saw fit to plug the vent line with a 1/4" bolt. I believe this hastened the demise of the fuel pump and may have contributed to the surge problem. The previous owner had at one time removed the fuel pump assy. and had even managed to pinch several wires in the process of reinstalling. At any rate, I think Earl will be fine and I will continue to help him any way I can. Kind of a rough beginning for a guy with his first beemer especially coming from a Harley.
Wasn't a bad trip since Idaho allows speeds up to 85 mph. Went past two staters sitting in the median without so much as a look. Like Oregon's 65 mph limit better though, less fatigue.
Oh, kitten is doing great! Eating and drinking on her own.
Red100RT, Really well done. Between the kitten and Beemer rescues, you should be nominated for a BMWMOA humanitarian award.
So it seems that a partial vacuum and failing fuel pump would lead to low fuel pressure. That would explain why the no-CCP, no CO Pot and BoosterPlug didn't richen the mixture. The bolt was most likely installed to deal with a leak.
I bet when the pump and hoses are fixed, EGG-3 will find he has a good running bike, with a CO Pot, no Coding Plug and a BoosterPlug.
Nice work.
JDOCKERY132445
OldBMWMaster
Paul was correct
The advice Paul Glaves has always been to check what you did last. Unfortunately on a used bike, you don't know what was done before you got it.
Whenever I see a condition that is not stock on a bike, I go immediately back to factory configuration.
It seems the solution to the problem is to un-do what some DIY efforts caused.
So glad you got the bike sorted with some more of the unselfish help that has always been a part of my bike ownership experience.
Now go ride that beauty.
The advice Paul Glaves has always been to check what you did last. Unfortunately on a used bike, you don't know what was done before you got it.
Whenever I see a condition that is not stock on a bike, I go immediately back to factory configuration.
It seems the solution to the problem is to un-do what some DIY efforts caused.
So glad you got the bike sorted with some more of the unselfish help that has always been a part of my bike ownership experience.
Now go ride that beauty.
nrpetersen
Curmudgeon
Good job guys! I think we might just be about to have a Hall of Wisdom recommended solution for the surge problem other than wrecking the emission control system of the R11XX bikes. I wasn't sure of the approach since my success base is limited to my R1100RT. In my case I had used the engine itself as a flow generator/measurement system to set the throttle stops. Afterwards I realized that just going for balance using the throttle stops and a centered BBSs setting is a more direct approach.
jammess
Jammess
Morning guys,
Sure do go along with that part about un-doing what the ham fisted do-it-yourselfer did. The guy also installed a self canceling turn signal gismo that somehow causes both dash turn signal indicators to glow dimly and lights both rear amber lights on constantly. Where I don't think this contributes to any problems I would yank the whole works out as well as the fiasco of the hella light install, just a rats nest if ever I saw one.
Think that must be the reason why someone would plug the vent line, must have been leaking. I would replace both vent lines. Strange thing is the guy removed the complete line with push on coupler as well. The other vent line with coupler was left alone. I would certainly like to know how the bike will run and perform after new fuel pump and proper venting. Might be much different where surging is concerned. If a fuel pump was easy to obtain from Driggs, ID I would have stayed another day as I really would like to see the results. Oh, I tried to break the fuel pump loose by revering 12V polarity a couple times but no luck.
Sure do go along with that part about un-doing what the ham fisted do-it-yourselfer did. The guy also installed a self canceling turn signal gismo that somehow causes both dash turn signal indicators to glow dimly and lights both rear amber lights on constantly. Where I don't think this contributes to any problems I would yank the whole works out as well as the fiasco of the hella light install, just a rats nest if ever I saw one.
Think that must be the reason why someone would plug the vent line, must have been leaking. I would replace both vent lines. Strange thing is the guy removed the complete line with push on coupler as well. The other vent line with coupler was left alone. I would certainly like to know how the bike will run and perform after new fuel pump and proper venting. Might be much different where surging is concerned. If a fuel pump was easy to obtain from Driggs, ID I would have stayed another day as I really would like to see the results. Oh, I tried to break the fuel pump loose by revering 12V polarity a couple times but no luck.
