2001 R1150RT - Crank ok - Won't Start

[r1150rtpaussie]

Hi all, looking for wisdom and advice.

My Bike: 2001 R1150RT-P Mileage= 72.6k

After washing my bike, and being careful not to wet HES sensor area.

Bike started, all be it with some struggle, found it was dead/dying battery, left bike with no battery for couple days till new battery arrived, replaced with new battery, now bike won’t start.

Conditions:

1. Fully charged battery.
2. Fresh fuel
3. Side stand up, neutral, clutch in, kill switch in ‘Run’ position, full RID display {fuel, temp and gear 0], Green Neutral light on in HUD
4. Turned the key on, heard the fuel pump whirr
5. The bike turns over fine, just won't start.

No Spark

6. Used inline spark plug tester – No indication of ‘spark’
7. I pulled the right spark plug and ground it properly ...no spark, repeated for left
8. Checked for 12V at the green wire going to the coils with the key on – All Good
9. Checked black wire in the same plug, didn’t see cyclic ground signal from the motronic when the engine was cranking.
Purchased/waiting on a LED noid light to test above
10. Checked the #5 fuse for the motronic unit (I am sure that is not the right name for it!) and it was good.
11. T.P.S - Checked voltage at pin 2 (has a green/yellow wire going to it). When the key is off I got zero volts. When the key is on, bike in neutral or sidestand up, I got 5V.
12. Did the #5 fuse for ten minutes then did throttle reset, plug wires plugged in coil, made sure all connectors connected....no spark!

No Fuel injector pulse
1. Fuel pump cycles on {Whirr}, on key to “on” position
2. Removed both fuel injectors and separated from fuel delivery hoses, when {Whirring} fuel is delivered under pressure from both fuel lines. “Into bucket”
3. Guessing, fuel pump working correctly
4. Reconnected fuel lines to injectors.
5. Checked voltage at injectors,
a. Green [White] 0v key off – 12v single pulse key to on position, 9v diminishing when cranking
b. Yellow [Grey] 0v key off/on/cranking
c. Green [White] 0v key off – 12v single pulse key to on position, 9v diminishing when cranking
d. Yellow [Grey] 0v key off/on/cranking
Waiting on Noid light to test further

Stumped - hoping it's not the Motrn.

Any and all help greatly appreciated
Jason

*** Currently checking HES sensor wiring, seems to be OLD style sheath on wires. ***



HES strikes again



Time to rewire me thinks

I'll rewire, reattach and test.

I'll post outcome

 

[jandhumphreyme]

I believe the oilheads were prone to HES issues, Id test that next.

 

[m_stock10506]

At the very start of your story.... did you do anything with the bike, before that first difficult to start instance? Wash the bike, ride in the rain?

Sure sounds like the HES wiring problem.

When you crank the starter, does the tachometer needle jump around?

 

[gsaddict]

Suspect HES as well.
Mileage on the machine?

 

[r1150rtpaussie]

Thanks to jandhumphreyme, m_stock10506 and GSAddict for quick replies.

m_stock10506 I had washed it, but though was careful enough to not wet that area, could be wrong.
Zero movement on the tach whilst cranking.

GSAddict Mileage is 72,600, without removing the sensor, I can see what appears to be the OLD thick/hard sheath on the wires.

hoping there is a way to check it, without removing it all, I know wishful thinking on my behalf.

 

[gsaddict]

Thanks to jandhumphreyme, m_stock10506 and GSAddict for quick replies.

m_stock10506 I had washed it, but though was careful enough to not wet that area, could be wrong.
Zero movement on the tach whilst cranking.

GSAddict Mileage is 72,600, without removing the sensor, I can see what appears to be the OLD thick/hard sheath on the wires.

hoping there is a way to check it, without removing it all, I know wishful thinking on my behalf.

72k is well into the zone where the insulation fails as the picture below shows.
Either way it should be rewired, it will strand you if it hasn't already.

 

[m_stock10506]

GSAddict said it and showed it. Very unlikely that you will see the damage before you remove the HES. You have to do it anyway. Why get stranded out on the road? Mark the position of the plate before you remove it, then send it off to GSAddict for the proper repair.

Ah, I see that you took the HES plate off and posted photos. Clearly the HES wiring is ready for repair. If you can rewire it yourself, (with the correct high temperature wire) good going. I don't have that kind of skill. I sent mine out to GSAddict. A beautiful repair.

 

[gsaddict]

Teflon wire is the lifetime fix

 

[chrisinsc]

First time I washed my '99 RT with 91K miles on it the HES shorted out. I repaired mine myself after sourcing proper cable and butt connectors. It was not entirely a trivial endeavor especially in the connections at the sensor itself. I made a careful diagram of the connections and then used waterproof high temp shrink tubing along with high temp RTV. I am an electrical hobbyist with HiFi gear so had all the soldering stuff handy and reasonable skills. Its definitely something that if possible would be good to have someone else do. Even if all you do is eliminate that item as an issue it would give you peace of mind. I think its highly likely that that is your problem with no spark.

 

[r1150rtpaussie]

Update

Thanks to everyone for the replies,

I've now replaced/rewired the HES unit, bench testing show sensors working correctly, placed the unit on the bike and retested.

There was a 5th wire which had a clear shielding on it that was only connected at the plug end, is this supposed to be connected somewhere on the sensor/plate end?

Sensor again seems to work correctly.

I've disconnected the battery, and have done the #5fuse routine, to try and reset the "Immobilized" setting of the Motronic unit
bike will crank but not start, not even a splutter.

Still not showing any signs of "spark" with inline tester, still waiting on the NOID light tester to check F.I connectors.

Read in a forum that sometimes when the hes unit 'shorts' out, it can cook the spark plug electrodes.

Waiting on a 'Special' thin walled socket to remove spark plugs, and will check those.

Any suggestions welcomed.

 

[chrisinsc]

I got little. Spray contact cleaner into the ignition switch assembly and work it. Work the kill switch back and forth check continuity of plug wires. Pull all relays and fuses and spray contact cleaner in the sockets and check all fuses. Do the same with all connections on the bike including the ecu plug. Every connector you can get to. I once brought a dead k75 for a friend back to life. The sensor under the air box for engine temp I think it was was corroded. Sprayed deoxit into it and worked it on and off a few times and it fired right up.

 

[r1150rtpaussie]

Update 5/3/2020

Just checked the HES, yep needed rewiring..



*** Rewired HES *** checked off the bike 'Seems" to be working.



Reattached to bike.



Checked starting again, no go. cranks but won't fire.



Piggybacking into the HES to Motronic wiring, am I looking for - or + voltage 'Pulse' on each of the signal wires coming from the HES unit whilst cranking?

Thanks again to all for the help

 

[gsaddict]

Just checked the HES, yep needed rewiring..



*** Rewired HES *** checked off the bike 'Seems" to be working.



Reattached to bike.



Checked starting again, no go. cranks but won't fire.





Piggybacking into the HES to Motronic wiring, am I looking for - or + voltage 'Pulse' on each of the signal wires coming from the HES unit whilst cranking?

Thanks again to all for the help

The outputs sink to ground.

 

[r1150rtpaussie]

Thanks

I got little. Spray contact cleaner into the ignition switch assembly and work it. Work the kill switch back and forth check continuity of plug wires. Pull all relays and fuses and spray contact cleaner in the sockets and check all fuses. Do the same with all connections on the bike including the ecu plug. Every connector you can get to. I once brought a dead k75 for a friend back to life. The sensor under the air box for engine temp I think it was was corroded. Sprayed deoxit into it and worked it on and off a few times and it fired right up.

Thanks @chrisinsc Tried it, no go still won't start

 

[r1150rtpaussie]

Cheers mate

The outputs sink to ground.

Awesome, Ill check it out.

Thanks again @GSAddict

 

[r1150rtpaussie]

Update 5/5/2020

1. Checked voltage at injectors NB: Both showing same results
a. Green [White] measured between Green[White] wire and at Neg- battery post.

0v key off –

+12v 'Momentary - voltage shows for same time as fuel pump prime' then 0v steady after initial - key to on position

+0.1v to +0.2v when cranking


2. Checked between battery neg post and Green wire going to the coil with the key on – All Good-- Wire Steady at system voltage +12v, dips slightly to +10.8v on cranking fluttering between +10.8v and +9.9v



3. Checked voltage between Coils Green and Black wires [Disconnected from coil] getting same result - Wire Steady at system voltage +12v, dips slightly to +10.8v on cranking fluttering between +10.8v and +9.9v



With no spark showing you might disconnect the green wire & black wire connector at the coil, then put a voltmeter or 12v test light across those wires & see if they flash on & off during engine cranking. If no light on, or no flash on/off, then look for Motronic not receiving proper input signal from lower Hall-switch on the HES. Unable to verify 'Flash' as don't have test light, but does show fluttering as stated above - tested with DVM, awaiting delivery of Analog Volt Meter to test further



One thing you might try is to disconnect the battery again for about 1/2 hour, long shot but with all the HES fiddling you might have the forced the Motronic into a lock-out mode.

Unfortunately unsuccessful.

 

[gsaddict]

Do you have +12v on pin 4 (red wire) of the HES connector when cranking?

A bit difficult to do with the connector assembled - slip a very fine solid wire thru the back of the connector
(the HES must stay connected)

There is a dropping resistor in the motronic that can fry if the old HES wiring shorts.
Rare but it does happen.

Report back

 

[r1150rtpaussie]

Update 7/5/2020

GSAddict

Sooo, after your responses I checked the HES unit, by piggybacking the wires from it to the Motronic.



What I found at Motronic:

Rd - +12v with key on, and whilst cranking

Brw - Good grounding signal - constant.- Tested resistance between Brown wire and Battery Neg post, near Zero resistance.

Or - Whilst not TDC position got +12v, dropped to 0.4v on TDC position. (Found loose wire at HES to Motronic Connector, replaced connector).

Blk - Whilst not 180" position got +12v, dropped to 0.4v on 180" position.



1. Checked voltage at injectors NB: Both showing same results
a. Green [White] measured between Green[White] wire and at Neg- battery post.

0v key off – (normal)

+12v 'Momentary - voltage shows for same time as fuel pump prime' then 0v steady after initial - key to on position

+10.1v to +11.8v when cranking.

***Got pulse/petrol from BOTH Injectors on correct timing marks on HES unit***



3. Checked voltage between Coils Green and Black wires [Disconnected from coil] getting same result - Wire Steady at system voltage +12v, dips slightly to +10.8v on cranking fluttering very briefly to +0.9v

*** Changed spark plugs, now getting faint blue spark from both plugs on correct timing marks on HES unit ***

You might want to re-check this with a test light or an analog voltmeter, if you have a slow or averaging voltmeter it might not respond quick enough to catch the quick dips to 0. - Awaiting Analog V.M and Noid light to test further.



But worth re-checking anyhow as it is reliant on good functioning HES signal. If you are getting a spark during engine cranking then it is probably working OK.



One thing you might try is to disconnect the battery again for about 1/2 hour, long shot but with all the HES fiddling you might have the forced the Motronic into a lock-out mode.

Checking again -



Bike now makes soft "puff" sounds from exhaust whilst cranking, like it wants to start, but still doesn't start



Thank you again good sir for your invaluable assistance.

 

[gsaddict]

GSAddict

Sooo, after your responses I checked the HES unit, by piggybacking the wires from it to the Motronic.



What I found at Motronic:

Rd - +12v with key on, and whilst cranking

Brw - Good grounding signal - constant.- Tested resistance between Brown wire and Battery Neg post, near Zero resistance.

Or - Whilst not TDC position got +12v, dropped to 0.4v on TDC position. (Found loose wire at HES to Motronic Connector, replaced connector).

Blk - Whilst not 180" position got +12v, dropped to 0.4v on 180" position.



1. Checked voltage at injectors NB: Both showing same results
a. Green [White] measured between Green[White] wire and at Neg- battery post.

0v key off – (normal)

+12v 'Momentary - voltage shows for same time as fuel pump prime' then 0v steady after initial - key to on position

+10.1v to +11.8v when cranking.

***Got pulse/petrol from BOTH Injectors on correct timing marks on HES unit***



3. Checked voltage between Coils Green and Black wires [Disconnected from coil] getting same result - Wire Steady at system voltage +12v, dips slightly to +10.8v on cranking fluttering very briefly to +0.9v

*** Changed spark plugs, now getting faint blue spark from both plugs on correct timing marks on HES unit ***

You might want to re-check this with a test light or an analog voltmeter, if you have a slow or averaging voltmeter it might not respond quick enough to catch the quick dips to 0. - Awaiting Analog V.M and Noid light to test further.



But worth re-checking anyhow as it is reliant on good functioning HES signal. If you are getting a spark during engine cranking then it is probably working OK.



One thing you might try is to disconnect the battery again for about 1/2 hour, long shot but with all the HES fiddling you might have the forced the Motronic into a lock-out mode.

Checking again -



Bike now makes soft "puff" sounds from exhaust whilst cranking, like it wants to start, but still doesn't start



Thank you again good sir for your invaluable assistance.

You are sure the timing cup is correctly indexed to the crankshaft and correctly torqued to spec by locking the flywheel?

 

[r1150rtpaussie]

Yes, 100%.

Verified again.

Thanks