1997 R1100RT Gremlin - what to do....?

[roger 04 rt]

I finally heard back from the BMW Dealership.

They tell me that they had the bike apart, checked ALL their work that might have "jiggled" anything loose,as well as checked grounds, wiring, etc, where accessible and.....nada.
We are back where we started from.
I believe that I will pick the bike up, have someone follow me back (@ 80 miles) with a trailer, just in case, and......wait for it to happen - again (or not!?).

If (when) it does, I guess it will be a garaged winter of wiring harness exploratory or for sale sign!!
Missed a great summer on this bike. I have a fall back ride (Yamaha - Cruise) but...only good for milk runs.

If there is anyone with anything do add, please do!

Much obliged.
RJLJR

RJLJR, Debugging this kind of problem can be very hard. If it were my bike (understand the bonding thing) I would wire three LEDs (ones with resistors so you can connect them to 12V) to the following spots:

#1 +12V input to the Motronic and Fuel Pump Relay control coils (it's a green/yellow) wire
#2 Output of the Fuel Pump relay contact
#3 Output of the Motronic relay contact

Line the LEDs up in a row somewhere where you can glance down and see them.

With key off, all LEDs should be off.
With key on, bike not running, Motronic should be on. Fuel pump should come on for two seconds.
With bike running, all LEDs s should be on.

Then when you're riding, if you get a cut out, immediately look to see which LED has gone out.
RB

 

[rjljr]

Wiring diagram??

Thanks for the advice rocketmanli but, I live in NE Ohio and NH is a touch of a reach (but who knows....?).

If I can get my hands on a "service manual" or a wiring "diagram", as opposed to a schematic, I might be able to Ebay a new harness and mess with it all winter. It would take ALL winter for me, that's for sure!!
rjljr

 

[roger 04 rt]

Here is an overview wiring diagram: http://www.mac-pac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/R1100RT-Elec-Diagram-V2_2.pdf

If you want the real McCoy, BMW sells an SLP 2.2 Wiring CD that show the wiring in minute detail.

 

[rjljr]

The very best thing about this MOA forum is...there is hope (and not so alone).

The "friggi'n" dealership doesn't seem to offer any of that.

I kinda want to work this all the through....no matter.....!!

 

[hammer]

Back to the basics

your bike needs a few things in order to start. Fuel/air mixture, compression and a properly timed spark..... Now you just need to find which is missing when it won't start and use that as your starting point. its also a very good idea to look at the last thing that was done prior to this problem.

Just my 2cents.
Good luck!
Chris

 

[montliz]

Here is an overview wiring diagram: http://www.mac-pac.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/R1100RT-Elec-Diagram-V2_2.pdf

If you want the real McCoy, BMW sells an SLP 2.2 Wiring CD that show the wiring in minute detail.

Not to hijack the thread, but nice wiring diagram, Roger! With your kind permission, I have borrowed it and added it to my bookmarks.



Thanks,

Johnny

 

[Bcmcmoose]

Fwiw, the engine should crank but not start with the kickstand down. I do this accidentally several times a day.. Haha

 

[rxcrider]

I'm over in North Ridgeville if you end up needing help.

When it was cranking but wouldn't start, did you hear the fuel pump cycle when you turned the key on? Also, did you notice if the RID was lit up? On my '95 R1100RS, I don't think I've ever tried to crank it over with the side stand down, but I will do so and see what happens. (in gear, in neutral and with the clutch lever pulled) I'm pretty sure our bikes should operate the same in that regard unless yours has been modified to allow it to run in neutral with the side stand down.

If the failure is intermittent and never appears when you are looking for it, the LED indicators are a great idea. Radio Shack should have them in stock locally in a variety of colors. I just used them recently to set up hall sensor timing lights.

 

[rjljr]

Back in my possession...

The dealership called to tell me that (since August 15th) they did their due diligence, spent @ 8 hours (not billed) of time going over anything that they may have touched in the process of replacing the clutch (it was the last thing done before this trouble started - didn't make it home) and, could NOT get it to fail and found no problems - "come and pick it up".

I did, yesterday, with a chase trailer to follow me home just in case. Well, the bike sure looked pretty and started repeatedly with every bump of the starter. I put on my turnpike pants, jacket and helmet, started the bike, rolled it back to pull out and - poof - stalled and would not start!
I asked the Service Manager to come out, since it was now failing, to put the computer on it to see what codes might be showing, and reads HAL sensor (which is brand new). He (Service Manager) is at his wits end and just wants it to go away.

Anyway, towed the bike home, put it in the garage, no start. Later that night, went out to take out the trash, bumped the starter - STARTS. Geez...

I too like the LED test light system and now feel like I have all winter (or more) to try to find this, even to the point of doing a whole new harness (maybe??).

In any case, to answer the rxcrider questions (and very grateful for the offer to help from Ridgeville):
I did hear the fuel pump "whirr" when I turn on the key.
RID was lit up.
Side stand was not down (and I don't believe it will start on the side stand, even with the clutch in).

There is a "guy" who is a friend of a friend who is kinda a perfectionist mechanical wizzard type who called and said he would do some research and see if he could help. If not, I will certainly "ping" rxcrider for further assistance.

The bike is great, new clutch, new battery, new tires, new HAL effect sensor, new (used) ECU, splines looking good (checked when replacing clutch), and runs like a banshee. Just the right amount of scratches and dings so you don't get upset to get it wet or take in out and get it dirty or bump it with the fuel hose or boot, I like the bike and would not ever need to replace it ( I did look to trade at one time but nothing "felt" as good) if ONLY I did not have to push it so often.

I will keep this thread current until.........

Thanks for all the interest.
rjljr

 

[norton]

Fwiw, the engine should crank but not start with the kickstand down. I do this accidentally several times a day.. Haha

It is true on an 1150, but not true on an 1100 RT

 

[dieselyoda]

I'm going to back to my original comments,

The dealer, may have had true intentions of finding your problem but they are under pressure to produce. It's incredibly stressful to keep showing billed hours against billable hours and see they are never equal. The principal of the company doesn't care about one customer and your small percentage problem. He wants throughput with tires, brakes and oil changes, high percentage service work.
The techs may want closure because it can be a self-esteem issue but rarely are they allowed.
You are a 1%'er, the customer nobody wants.
They need to cut their ties with you and to be perfectly honest, B--lsh-t works every time.
Don't believe for a second that they went through the bike again.
You, or your going to need someone, that will go through every basic detail of powers, grounds and maybe, with some luck, you can get to a point and start looking at individual components.
The LED set-up for lights, go/no-go is a great solution and if you Google "noid" lights, you find lots of ready made with no fighting.
If your bike was in my little hobby shop and you had lots of beer and allowed me my 'squirrel' moments watching hockey, I will find the problem, but you can't pay me enough cash nor is the bike worth that kind of money. I love those kinds of problems.

Montreal is about to go 9-0!

What was I talking about?
Don't give up!

 

[rjljr]

Agree with dieselyoda.

Dieselyoda, your take on the situation is (I'm afraid) probably 100% accurate. I sensed from a while back that the dealership was just trying to back peddle out of the way the service manager handled the situation on the trip before the last one ("just take your bike and leave" more or less).

I figured no harm in letting them come and get it and thought that, maybe, just maybe, they would stumble on the problem if they really ever even took a look (which, probably not). I, the perpetual optimist, thought, that maybe, just maybe......

In any case, I have NOT given up, yet. It has kind of become a quest.

Thanks for the advice on the "noid" lights. The local Radio Shack closed up shop and I was checking local electrical suppliers.

I realize the bike does not have an economic value relative to the work that may be needed, but, it's just a great bike and, it's just a electrical/mechanical dilemma. Can't see trashing it. I have all winter.

Thanks for all the great conversation and I will be posting was things progress!!

rjljr

 

[ibjman]

one more idea

perhaps the new Hall sensor assy has a defect???

You will find that the way the ign. works......is the ignition coil gets a steady 12V+ supply from the Ignition switch on circuit.

When my hall sensor was not functioning......I found that the "ground" signal to the coil is what "fires" the plugs.

When the hall sensors send the signal to the ECU that the circuit from the sensor is "open" (when the LED on the tester goes off), the ecm breaks the ground to the coil thus causing the field in the coil to collapse sending the spark to the plug.
Also as mentioned elsewhere here, if the hall signal is missing at the ECU, the fuel pump will not come on during cranking, (after the original Key on cycle).

I think maybe rigging another led telltale lamp to the ground side wire for the coil would tell you at the time the engine fails.....if you have lost the coil signal or not.

Hope that's not too confusing.....obviously, I'm not a tech. writer.

Regards, Ibj...

 

[rjljr]

Update to end 2015

Spoke to another "dealership" and these guys have been tinkering with BMW's since early 70's and don't seem daunted.

I will be bringing it down there after the first to let them have a crack at it.

I will update.

Happy New Year BMWMOA Forum!!

rjljr

 

[JDOCKERY132445]

Good luck

Don't give up on the bike. Eventually the problem will be found and it will be something so simple that it will surprise you.

 

[rjljr]

Solution!?

Well, I promised to update this thread when there was something new and...there is something new.

March 8th I ended up taking the bike to another BMW dealership (other than the one that I had been dealing with so far up to this point) who told me to bring it down and they would have a look at it.

This dealership is not quite as "shiny and sparkly", not as many racks of jackets and hats, not as many intercoms, as the other but, a couple of counter guys and two guys in the shop, one of whom washed his hands and left the bike he was working on and walked out with me to the R1100 (he was the guy I last talked to). I explained (again) my dilemma while he looked the bike over and he commented that he has had other opportunities to deal with "unsolvable" problems undiagnosed by other dealerships in the past. He was a big believer in R1100's and thought that the problem was either the kickstand switch or the vapor recovery canister. Said that there was not "too much to these older R1100's" and he would get it running as soon as he had a chance to look at it since "Spring has sprung" and loads of bikes to tinker with.

March 18th, got the call. Tubes plugged with decomposing charcoal, canister eliminated, proper hoses plugged. Showed me the hoses jammed with black charcoal gunk. Problem solved. Two hours of shop time, $6.00 in shop supplies and $2.76 in (2) protection caps. Gee.

In any case, to those that may have read this thread from the beginning, it was kinda a "WTF" moment. Particularly when I replay in my mind the last dealership's Service Manager telling me to just "take the bike and get it out of here, it's just costing you money and me money", after many trips to his dealership on the trailer, a tow, 18 months of....whatever and MUCH $$$.

I guess it can be said that maybe, just maybe, the gremlin is still lurking but, I'm feeling that no, not so much this time. That is to say that I've been running it and no tows, no pushing.

I am grateful for the "old school" mechanic who has experience and is older than the bike he is working on.

I took the advice of an earlier contributor to this thread and brought in a case of beer. The mechanics comment, "looky beer, yummy". How nice.

 

[rxcrider]

Glad it sounds like you found an actual mechanic this time. New Philadelphia?

 

[snookers]

Well, I promised to update this thread when there was something new and...there is something new.

..............He was a big believer in R1100's and thought that the problem was either the kickstand switch or the vapor recovery canister. Said that there was not "too much to these older R1100's" and he would get it running as soon as he had a chance .........

March 18th, got the call. Tubes plugged with decomposing charcoal, canister eliminated, proper hoses plugged. Showed me the hoses jammed with black charcoal gunk. Problem solved. Two hours of shop time, $6.00 in shop supplies and $2.76 in (2) protection caps. Gee.



I am grateful for the "old school" mechanic who has experience and is older than the bike he is working on.

I took the advice of an earlier contributor to this thread and brought in a case of beer. The mechanics comment, "looky beer, yummy". How nice.

Its so good to hear you have most likely solved the problems you were having.....and that box of liquid donuts you brought in....... will go a long way down the road.....

 

[daveredman]

.
.
This dealership is not quite as "shiny and sparkly", not as many racks of jackets and hats, not as many intercoms, as the other but, .....

And... what dealership is this...?
Give them a good mention.

I have been interested in this situation of how corporate now has standards the dealers now have to abide by. Thinking of some of dealers there used to be years ago that were the old mom & pop garage in old industrial part of town, as compared to the suburban mall looking places these days.

Yes, have been reading this posting all through.

Do post after some more rides.
Maybe some day, ride the 80 miles to the original dealer and strike up conversation with the service manager.

Any explanation how this canister line causes bike to stall and not start....?
(I guess I don't really know what the canisters function is, or how it can effect the engine running.)

.

 

[JDOCKERY132445]

Great news

It is the guys who love the machine and have real experience in dealing with "issues" that always come to the rescue.