The Legendary Motorcycles of Germany

crucian · Nov 10, 2018

From a misleading Thread Title to pistols, peasants and prickly posters, this one has it all. Ah the good old days.......

Japan, following WWII dedicated themselves to precision manufacture and in pursuit of that developed a new generation machine tools that continue to evolve. They changed the game, worldwide. Fanuc controls have an estimated 65% of the market in CNC machine tools. Material selection remains an engineering function of the "home office" as generally does design of the product. No longer in any advanced mass manufacturing arena is the role of a journeyman machinist relevant. Machine tools and increasingly assembly tools are robotic with repeatability and accuracy that far outstrip a manual effort, to say nothing of cost. Robust QC systems (and the costs that go with them) are the key to quality, regardless of where on the globe parts are produced.

I understand and appreciate vintage machinery including motorcycles and the people and the tools that produced them. That time is passed. Motorcycles now offer capability and reliability unimaginable in the "good old days".

The unfortunate side effect of this ongoing wave is workforce and wage reduction. In spite of political finger pointing and attempts to "nationalize" manufacturing in hopes of securing support of the disaffected, global supply chain manufacturing is here to stay.

oldcamper · Nov 10, 2018

crucian said:
From a misleading Thread Title to pistols, peasants and prickly posters, this one has it all. Ah the good old days....... .

The thread title is an advertising tagline used by BMW a few years ago. I used it to highlight the change, not to mislead.

Regardless of global economic realities, I’m still disappointed one can no longer purchase a new mid-size bike actually made in Germany.

It was a good run while it lasted (80 years?) but there are now better and more cost effective alternatives.

BC1100S · Nov 10, 2018

OldCamper said:
The thread title is an advertising tagline used by BMW a few decades ago.

Made a slight change to your post.

Visian · Nov 10, 2018

OldCamper said:
No doubt the quality of the new bikes will be at least adequate, but a product’s appeal is often related to its source. French wine, Belgian chocolate, Italian sports cars, Swiss watches, and German motorcycles are all desirable products, even though there are many alternatives, some superior.

This, right here. Brand is more than a logo. :nod

Due to age, I will need to downsize from the 1200 soon. Actual price of my next bike is not important but value is. The BMW community is important to me but the new 850’s do not seem a good option. Maybe I’ll just go back to an Airhead.

Try a Honda CB500X or NC700. Made in Thailand, quality is stellar for far less than a Chinese BMW.

Ian

beemerphile · Nov 11, 2018

Visian said:
Try a Honda CB500X or NC700. Made in Thailand, quality is stellar for far less than a Chinese BMW.

I gave one a good try. B O R I N G !!! The tank could just as well have said "Whirlpool" or "Kelvinator".

beemerphile · Nov 11, 2018

jammess said:
Hmmmm, an airhead might not be a bad plan. If you could just somehow modify the brakes and then there is the clunky transmissions found in airheads older than '81. I wonder what an older airhead tranny would do clunk wise if you gave it a shot of Motul 80w90 with moly gear lube? I know this stuff silenced the M93 trans in my '93 R1100RSL and improved smoothness 100%.

I have modified airhead Brembos by substituting 4-pot calipers from later models. I've modified ATE's on my R75/6 by doubling up on them and substituting a handlebar master cylinder. More talented modders have gone as far as using the ATE mounts to hold radial calipers and mounting larger disks. Most anything is possible. But given sufficient braking power, the front end will drop like a pole-axed mule and the narrow front tire will begin to howl. Ain't no ABS to save your bacon if you ham-fist it, but at least the outcome is all on you - just like it was Back Then.

I use Motul in my R1200, but the older airhead isn't going to respond to Motul as a solution to clunkiness. Most of that is induced by the heavier flywheel on the older models. The rest (essentially, what remained in the later airhead models) is genetic. They are happy enough on plain old Castrol Limited Slip 80W90 and unimpressed by anything fancier.

pglaves · Nov 11, 2018

beemerphile said:
I gave one a good try. B O R I N G !!! The tank could just as well have said "Whirlpool" or "Kelvinator".

View attachment 71544

Exactly what they said in 1986 about the K75. 500,000 or so miles on K75s later I still disagree. A motorcycle does not need to go wump-wump or potato-potato to be an interesting motorcycle. I actually like real forks and real brakes. And some horsepower.

Visian · Nov 11, 2018

beemerphile said:
I gave one a good try. B O R I N G !!! The tank could just as well have said "Whirlpool" or "Kelvinator".

I found my CB500X to be an excellent choice for touring Europe.... right size & power, right economy of fuel, tires and other consumables. The only thing it couldn't do is triple-digit speeds on the Autobahn.

I wish BMW would make a 2-cylinder bike of this size and weight.

Omega Man · Nov 11, 2018

BMW- conveniently nestled between a Honda and a Ducati

om

akbeemer · Nov 11, 2018

Visian said:
I found my CB500X to be an excellent choice for touring Europe.... right size & power, right economy of fuel, tires and other consumables. The only thing it couldn't do is triple-digit speeds on the Autobahn.

I wish BMW would make a 2-cylinder bike of this size and weight.

This bike has much to offer. Do you find it a pain to refuel when loaded as traveling?

beemerphile · Nov 11, 2018

PGlaves said:
Exactly what they said in 1986 about the K75. 500,000 or so miles on K75s later I still disagree. A motorcycle does not need to go wump-wump or potato-potato to be an interesting motorcycle. I actually like real forks and real brakes. And some horsepower.

I don't have a thing against my K. But, I think you would find "real forks, real brakes, and some horsepower" to be notably absent from the NC700x.

I fixed the forks and brakes on the NC, but it remained a bit cramped and underpowered. Since one of its key selling points is fuel efficiency, that is the trade-off Honda made to get there. Horses for courses. I tried to get my wife interested in a BMW X5, but after driving everything, she preferred the Honda Pilot for the exact same reasons that I didn't like it. Since it was for her, we bought the Pilot. Great car. Dependable, economical, durable, blah, blah, blah.

pglaves · Nov 11, 2018

beemerphile said:
I don't have a thing against my K. But, I think you would find "real forks, real brakes, and some horsepower" to be notably absent from the NC700x.

View attachment 71546

I fixed the forks and brakes on the NC, but it remained a bit cramped and underpowered. Since one of its key selling points is fuel efficiency, that is the trade-off Honda made to get there. Horses for courses. I tried to get my wife interested in a BMW X5, but after driving everything, she preferred the Honda Pilot for the exact same reasons that I didn't like it. Since it was for her, we bought the Pilot. Great car. Dependable, economical, durable, blah, blah, blah.

Nice K1100.

Visian · Nov 12, 2018

beemerphile said:
I don't have a thing against my K. But, I think you would find "real forks, real brakes, and some horsepower" to be notably absent from the NC700x.

I have not ridden the 700 but my 500X with a RallyRaid Stage 1 suspension upgrade ($1200) has all the brakes, suspension and power I need... except when trying to pass big Audis and Mercs in the mountains.

Sold my HP2e 6 months ago before I killed myself on the damn thing. Getting old, slowing down and really not very attracted to bikes that weigh over 450 pounds.

beemerphile · Nov 12, 2018

Visian said:
I have not ridden the 700 but my 500X with a RallyRaid Stage 1 suspension upgrade ($1200) has all the brakes, suspension and power I need... except when trying to pass big Audis and Mercs in the mountains.

Sold my HP2e 6 months ago before I killed myself on the damn thing. Getting old, slowing down and really not very attracted to bikes that weigh over 450 pounds.

I thought the NC700 was going to be my ideal "old man" bike. I had watched it for over a year in development and bought the first one to hit town. It turned out though that the NC700 was built to a low budget for entry level riders. It weighed within 10-20 lbs. of my R12GS - well more than 450 lbs. The simple forks had no high-speed damping, they just locked up, making washboard roads a good way to loosen fillings. A RaceTech upgrade fixed the front of mine pretty well with an Ohlins out back. The single 2-piston front caliper provided anemic stopping. The rear was only good as a hill-holder. I fixed the front with a 3-piston caliper from an ABS bike. The seat is a vinyl crucifix and dismounting rear seat luggage to fill the pathetic 3.7 gallon tank is uncalled for. The torque-free ~50 hp of the 700 was insufficient when the bike was loaded to the gills for a trans-Labrador trip. Running Hwy 138 from Quebec City to Baie-Comeau, I was running WFO and losing ground to traffic on the uphill sections. The trip finally DNF'ed because the charging system left me flat at Manic 2.

Interesting to Paul's potato-potato point, they gave it a 270 degree crank allegedly to provide some "character" with the power pulses. It only served to make it vibrate, and if any endearing character showed through its coarseness, I could not find it. In a word, the bike was uninspiring. I find myself trying to slow down as well in my old age. The R75/6 seems a more graceful way to do that. It was made back when the Legendary Motorcycles of Germany were that indeed - before CNC machine centers obsoleted the skilled craftsman. I fear for my license when I am aboard the excellent K11RS because my self-control seems to disappear quickly. The R12GS, though more powerful, doesn't seem to egg it on as badly. My 92RS will behave if I will. We'll see. Lately the law enforcement community has been involved with some success in moderating my enthusiasm.

oldcamper · Nov 12, 2018

Visian said:
I found my CB500X to be an excellent choice for touring Europe.... right size & power, right economy of fuel, tires and other consumables.
I wish BMW would make a 2-cylinder bike of this size and weight.

BMW used to build shaft-driven R45, R50, R60, and R65 boxer motorcycles in Germany.
Is Guzzi the only one left making small/mid-size shaft-drive bikes?
I wonder what happened to the others?
Cost possibly? A 750 Guzzi is what ... maybe $8k or so?

Visian · Nov 12, 2018

OldCamper said:
BMW used to build shaft-driven R45, R50, R60, and R65 boxer motorcycles in Germany.
Is Guzzi the only one left making small/mid-size shaft-drive bikes?
I wonder what happened to the others?
Cost possibly? A 750 Guzzi is what ... maybe $8k or so?

Showroom performance. Stats sell bikes.

Plus, those old smaller-displacement /5 R bikes were essentially the same size and weight (and cost to build) as the larger-displacement models. When the R850 oilheads were introduced in the mid 90s they sat on the dealer's floor for a very long time.

My 1986 R80G/SPD (and the R65... both smaller frame) were the end of an era., weighing in at 425 pounds. The only thing close was the HP2 enduro, also 425 pound (with twice the horsepower :evil

)... but those were limited edition and very expensive.

I don't know about Guzzi pricing... but every time I went to a dealer they were on sale for a significant discount off MSRP. I think their lack of dealers is what is holding them back.

Ian

Visian · Nov 12, 2018

beemerphile said:
I thought the NC700 was going to be my ideal "old man" bike. I had watched it for over a year in development and bought the first one to hit town. It turned out though that the NC700 was built to a low budget for entry level riders. It weighed within 10-20 lbs. of my R12GS - well more than 450 lbs. The simple forks had no high-speed damping, they just locked up, making washboard roads a good way to loosen fillings. A RaceTech upgrade fixed the front of mine pretty well with an Ohlins out back. The single 2-piston front caliper provided anemic stopping. The rear was only good as a hill-holder. I fixed the front with a 3-piston caliper from an ABS bike. The seat is a vinyl crucifix and dismounting rear seat luggage to fill the pathetic 3.7 gallon tank is uncalled for. The torque-free ~50 hp of the 700 was insufficient when the bike was loaded to the gills for a trans-Labrador trip. Running Hwy 138 from Quebec City to Baie-Comeau, I was running WFO and losing ground to traffic on the uphill sections. The trip finally DNF'ed because the charging system left me flat at Manic 2.

Interesting to Paul's potato-potato point, they gave it a 270 degree crank allegedly to provide some "character" with the power pulses. It only served to make it vibrate, and if any endearing character showed through its coarseness, I could not find it. In a word, the bike was uninspiring. I find myself trying to slow down as well in my old age. The R75/6 seems a more graceful way to do that. It was made back when the Legendary Motorcycles of Germany were that indeed - before CNC machine centers obsoleted the skilled craftsman. I fear for my license when I am aboard the excellent K11RS because my self-control seems to disappear quickly. The R12GS, though more powerful, doesn't seem to egg it on as badly. My 92RS will behave if I will. We'll see. Lately the law enforcement community has been involved with some success in moderating my enthusiasm.

I have to admit I have not heard anything great about the NC700, but the 500X really is a brilliant smaller bike. It has a very active following, too.... mostly younger and less-experienced riders.

And... I stopped buying K bikes about 10 years ago for the same reason you did, lack of self-discipline, riding way too fast on open roads, risking my license and my life. HP2e, same reason and more.... nothing passed on the double yellow in the mountains better than that bike.

pappy35 · Nov 12, 2018

beemerphile said:
I gave one a good try. B O R I N G !!! The tank could just as well have said "Whirlpool" or "Kelvinator".

View attachment 71544

Before I got my RT (I last had an FJR, then was without a ride for 9 years) I was seriously considering a Honda CTX700 DCT. Luckily I came to my senses and found and bought the RT. I never thought of it in these terms before "BORING" is absolutely PERFECT. Those machines are technically perfect but they have no character. Everything about them screams "just adequate." That would have never satisfied me and now looking back I'm so happy I ultimately didn't feed my inner pragmatist.

oldcamper · Nov 12, 2018

I hadn’t thought about it before but if Guzzi can get a shaft-drive 80’s design bike to pass modern emissions, build it in Italy and sell it for $8k as they do with the 750 Roamer, why couldn’t BMW still build a monolever R80GS basic in Germany and also sell it for $8k?

I’ve never been to either country but wouldn’t expect much difference.

BC1100S · Nov 12, 2018

I've noticed that about every 6 months a thread fires up about how great all things BMW used to be in the "old" days. The thread inevitably has contributions from riders who think BMW should build smaller / lighter bikes while ignoring the mid-sized GS series or the R Nine T. The lament continues about maintenance costs and reliability while also ignoring the fact that many riders like myself have never had a part fail, excepting in my case a coil and a couple of headlight bulbs, in 10 years of riding. Then the comparisons to Japanese bikes start (in this case, the thoroughly horrible NC700) while again ignoring the fact that BMW is coming off a number of years of record sales so I'm guessing Germany must be doing something right. The day BMW starts building bikes using old technology is the day they start competing with Harley for a shrinking demographic of riders.

So, if you want an airhead-like bike then buy an airhead. There are many fine examples out there for reasonable prices.

I have one suggestion for all the naysayers - this is life as we now know it, there is no going back, so get used to it and quit yer whining.

The Legendary Motorcycles of Germany

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