Armor/Impact Protection? The horns of a dilemma?

[bigjohnsd]

Ryan says -

Read the comments under the video......

@MotorcycleGearHub
22 hours ago (edited)
PLEASE NOTE: I'm having to publish this comment again as this channel deleted it earlier as my comment calls out the irresponsible rhetoric of this video (my comment had more than 1,000 likes in a couple of hours & replies from fellow motorcyclists).

This is Roy, owner of the review website Motorcycle Gear Hub; I have reviewed all the best motorcycle armor in the industry for years on my website, even armor that's only available to professional riders. I'm saying this so that anyone reading my comment can first know a bit about my background.

This entire video is a mix of cherry-picking data, misinterpreting the data, only reading the abstract of a research paper (either because Ryan has no access to journals or because he's an amateur trying to look scientific), taking what PPE researchers say out of context, and good old clickbait for views. The clickbait preview picture of this video is also doing more harm than good, especially for riders who don't know any better regarding motorcycle armor.

I'm also in constant contact with Paul Varnsverry (whom Ryan has conveniently taken his words out of context), who's the go-to guy for PPE along with Dr. Christopher Hurren of MotoCAP and a very-small number of PPE professionals/researchers.

Since this video is simply an exercise in click-bait for views and I don't have all the time in the world to debunk every incorrect point/half truth in this video, here's the reality of motorcycle armor:

1) Limb armor is designed to protect the joint, which is surrounded by soft tissue and which A) Is of critical importance to also protect and B) allows the bone section of the joint to withstand higher impact forces by distributing the force to the surrounding soft tissue.

Ergo, the claim about motorcycle armor not preventing bone fractures is only partially true and will depend upon where the impact is along the bone's axis and which specific bone. Even the original research regarding fractures was not final on its conclusion (Ryan would know this if he read the paper and not the abstract as I'm guessing he did).

2) While limb armor may not prevent bone fractures, it will dampen the transmitted force and thus lead to a less-severe fracture all things equal. This point flew over Ryan's head as he skews and cherry picks his "research".

In fact, the whole point of motorcycle armor is to attenuate impact energy, not to spare you from a traumatic amputation or compound fracture if you slam a lamp post at 80mph.

3) There's limb armor nowadays that approaches 10kn (and lower) of transmitted residual force to the EN 1621-1:2012 testing. And that's just talking of limb armor for the elbows, knees, shoulders and hips. I have reviewed all these highly impact-absorbing armored products, which include but are not limited to:

* SAS-TEC EVO protectors
* SAS-TEC SC-1/42 Prestige protectors
* D3O LP2 Pro (both standard and racing, both which I've too reviewed)
* Powertector CE Level 2 protectors (used by RST among others)
* Several limb protectors made by Betac
* Alpinestars' Nucleon Flex Pro protectors (which MotoCAP shows to score under a mean 10kn, even though Alpinestars lists them at 14-16kn mean)
* The high-end CE Level 2 protectors from Dainese implemented in racing suits and some high-end textile garments (which are extremely basic as they are sandwiched protectors).
* Forcefield Isolator 2 protectors

There are more, and I have reviewed them all on my website, including the listed ones above. I also have full access to custom-made protectors designed for MotoGP riders.

Any of the above-listed limb protectors will actually do something in a crash and attenuate impact forces to a useful degree.

4) Yes, impact protectors also served as abrasion-resistant padding. This is something that we have known for years. Nothing new about this.

5) Whenever possible, choose protectors with a large surface area. However, it's imperative that such protectors are CE-certified as Type B (if limb protectors) as there are a number of large protectors that, in reality, only offer impact attenuation to a reduced zone of their chassis (i.e. Type A protectors). Dainese's composite CE Level 1 protectors in their low-priced garments are an example of this.

If choosing a back protector, go with an FB certification instead of a CB certification.

6) There's plenty of low-quality protectors in the market, including those sold on Amazon with fake certifications. Do not buy protectors from fly-by-night brands on Amazon or Ebay.

7) There's a trend for very-slim and lesser-protective protectors. This is because riders are demanding this, so brands act accordingly.

What I can say, as someone who owns by now more than 160 motorcycle protectors of all types, is that there's highly-protective motorcycle armor out there that's not only useful to riders in the event of a crash but that's also comfortable, ventilated and ergonomic.

Of course, none of the above matters if a rider's garments don't fit snug enough to ensure the proper positioning of the protectors, but that's another topic altogether.

Overall, folks, keep wearing your motorcycle armor (and an airbag if your budget allows for it), and fit high-quality CE Level 2 protective armor to your garments if possible.

They will make a difference if and when you go down.

UPDATE: since my comment has blown up with people liking it and it's now very visible to other riders in the commenting section, I'm posting below the direct commentary from researcher Liz de Rome regarding the intentional cherry-picking and misinterpreting from Ryan F9 of her research.

This commentary from Liz de Rome was posted in another comment from Dr. Christopher Hurren, but it is not as visible, so I am including it now in my comment so as to give Liz de Rome's important commentary more visibility and, once more, prove how Ryan F9 is simply cherry-picking data (and purposely not reading the research correctly) so that he can construct his misleading and clickbait rhetoric of this irresponsible video from FortNine:

Commentary from Liz de Rome regarding her quoted research by Ryan F9:

"In the research paper (AAP, 2011), we reported that riders wearing motorcycle clothing fitted with impact protection (IP) were significantly less likely to sustain any injuries than were riders wearing motorcycle clothing without IP and those wearing non-motorcycle clothing. The analysis compared injured and uninjured riders by level of protection taking other factors into account such as crash type, object impacted and speed.

We were able to demonstrate significant reductions in open wound injuries associated with level of protection, but not fractures. In our discussion, we explain that the study sample (n=212) was too small to determine statistically significant evidence for the reduction of fractures. This is because fractures represent just 15% of riders’ injuries, compared to 71% soft tissue injuries across a population sample of crashed motorcycle riders. We strongly recommend that riders continue to wear impact protectors."

@christopherhurren629
3 days ago
On behalf of Liz de Rome:
In the research paper (AAP, 2011), we reported that riders wearing motorcycle clothing fitted with impact protection (IP) were significantly less likely to sustain any injuries than were riders wearing motorcycle clothing without IP and those wearing non-motorcycle clothing. The analysis compared injured and uninjured riders by level of protection taking other factors into account such as crash type, object impacted and speed.

We were able to demonstrate significant reductions in open wound injuries associated with level of protection, but not fractures. In our discussion, we explain that the study sample (n=212) was too small to determine statistically significant evidence for the reduction of fractures. This is because fractures represent just 15% of riders’ injuries, compared to 71% soft tissue injuries across a population sample of crashed motorcycle riders. We strongly recommend that riders continue to wear impact protectors.

Associate Professor Liz de Rome.

Other experts say, or, The rest of the story -

More good comments here as well.....

 

[rhbike]

Ryan used to have some useful things to say. These days he is increasingly little more than click bait. I'm no longer interested in his sensational bilge.

He can toss his pads if he wishes. I'll keep wearing my pads in my Kevlar riding gear with an air vest. I do know what pads are good for.

 

[collingsbob]

Ryan used to have some useful things to say. These days he is increasingly little more than click bait. I'm no longer interested in his sensational bilge.

He can toss his pads if he wishes. I'll keep wearing my pads in my Kevlar riding gear with an air vest. I do know what pads are good for.

Same here…Klim Latitude with CE Level 2 armour + Helite vest

 

[rogerc60]

Was this an April fools joke with humor way too dry?

 

[bigjohnsd]

Was this an April fools joke with humor way too dry?

I don't think so.

 

[kbasa]

His specialty seems to have moved from "share useful and important information about motorcycling" to "generate hot takes to get clicks, even if the stuff I say is absolute lunacy."

I'm kinda done with him. It's been a while since I've watched an episode that seemed grounded in reality.

Your mileage may vary, but the Zack and Ari over on Revzilla are still putting out decently useful, entertaining and informative content.

 

[brownie0486]

Liz de Rome spelled it out clear enough. Armor reduces injuries sustained vs no armor. Reduces not eliminates. Anyone who believes that jacket armor makes them iron man needs to wake up and smell the coffee to begin with.

Been down at 65mph with no armor [ who had armor in their motor clothes on the early 80's? ] I'm quite sure with the armor I wear today, injuries would have been diminished by some factor and thus wouldn't have taken 8 months to get the rotator back to 95%.. And any reduction in severity of injuries is a plus, even a slight decrease.

 

[riderr1150gsadv]

I went down off-roading a few times and never even got bruised, other then my ego , all because I was wearing a pressure suit, padded underwear, knee braces, heavy boots, gloves and a good helmet that never got hit btw..
People always ask ; "isn't all that gear hot?" to which I answer; "I rather sweat then bleed".... YMMV

 

[kbasa]

I went down off-roading a few times and never even got bruised, other then my ego , all because I was wearing a pressure suit, padded underwear, knee braces, heavy boots, gloves and a good helmet that never got hit btw..
People always ask ; "isn't all that gear hot?" to which I answer; "I rather sweat then bleed".... YMMV

I tell them "I'm perfectly dressed for sliding down the road on my ass at 60mph" and they kinda get the point.

Make sure you give them a big crazy smile like I do.

 

[omega man]

When asked if the clothing is hot- “It’s tuff to steal the exact size I wear. Getting tougher to find clothes lines”.
When asked if the jacket is too tight- “I had a bigger size but either the flapping tried to beat me to death or the wind at highway speed created enough lift to bring me off the seat”.
OM

 

[brownie0486]

Hot here means the mexican laborers wear two shirts. Two keeps them cooler than one. I hired a laborer to built my rock wall, had two trucks of large stone dropped at the front of the house mid August [ 114-116F ]. He shows up with a wheelbarrow and gets to work. End of day, walls done by himself and some of those rocks were 1/2 the size of a vw bug [ the base stones the rest were placed on, no mortar, free standing wall that was perfect.

Hot in a mesh jacket with a heat out under that? It's hot but no hotter than their wearing two shirts in those temps out in the sun all day. That day I learned to wear two, not one T shirt in the summer. That laborer knew what he was talking about.

 

[88bmwjeff]

It's hot but no hotter than their wearing two shirts in those temps out in the sun all day. That day I learned to wear two, not one T shirt in the summer. That laborer knew what he was talking about.

Please elaborate for us neophytes. Why is two shirts better?

 

[omega man]

Please elaborate for us neophytes. Why is two shirts better?

I always like to use Bedouin dress as an example-

How does Bedouin clothing keep you cool?
That's because even if you don't feel like you're sweating, you still want to evaporate moisture off your skin. The loose clothing allows air to pass long the skin and exit, speeding evaporation and carrying off excess heat. Bedouins stay cool because their robes are so thick.
OM

 

[brownie0486]

Please elaborate for us neophytes. Why is two shirts better?

I didn't bother trying to find the science behind it after I discovered the laborer was correct. It was my first summer here. I can state with some authority that during my service days at 29 Palms Marine base in July/August of 71 [ Mohave desert ] the temps would get to over 100 by 11am and the base alarms went off which was the end of the work day. Temps were over a 100 and some days as high as 110-115F.

What were we wearing? T shirts and fatigue [ work ] shirt. We weren't suffering from heat exhaustion on a large scale on work details dressed in utilities.

 

[riderr1150gsadv]

When I was guiding I always wore long sleeved shirts and pants. Quite a few of my clients overheated wearing t-shirts and shorts....People don't seem to understand that the sun blazing on your skin heats you up more then wearing long sleeved anything..

I once met a rider in Louisiana, who was a heartbeat away from a heatstroke, asking me if I was hot in my blue power ranger suit. When I told him that I was warm but not hot, he didn't believe me and I told him the Bedouin in the desert don't run around half naked either.. He shook his overheated chrome dome (no helmet) and took off. I hope he made it home.....

 

[PGlaves]

Please elaborate for us neophytes. Why is two shirts better?

The thin air layer between the two shirts and the extra layer of fabric serves as insulation. One can readily see how two shirts would insulate against cold weather. The effect is the same against heat in hot weather.

Those of us who routinely jump from our air conditioned houses to our air conditioned cars or trucks and into the air conditioned store or office or shop barely notice the heat except fleetingly but ask the roofer or the asphalt worker or the farm worker and a person would get a different answer.

 

[skibum69]

It's almost surprising how much mileage this video has gotten, this males 3 or 4 places I've seen it turn up since it released. The second video in response is getting the same. I found it half interesting and I get it. I too will keep my armour, I learned long ago the extent to which armour protects you from racing DH Mtn bikes.

As for heat I found out very quickly on my first ride across the country that it was much more comfortable and sustaining wearing my jacket on the bike vs not despite the temperature. I tried riding with no helmet very briefly and put it back on too.

I like the 2 shirt idea for heat but it doesn't get hot enough here for any kind of real test.

 

[r0ckrat]

Rough science of the two shirts effect...

With one shirt, your sweat evaporates almost instantly, providing very little cooling effect. With two shirts, the sweat has time to provide cooling as it evaporates more slowly - the outer layer provides the evaporation area while that cools the moisture on/in the inner layer before it has a chance to evaporate.

This is also why things like a wool blend shirt manage your body temp so well. Wool is a natural insulator, but also good at moving moisture. So it slows the process of that moisture moving off your skin and evaporating, providing some cooling, but also provides insulation to prevent over-cooling...

 

[brownie0486]

It's almost surprising how much mileage this video has gotten, this males 3 or 4 places I've seen it turn up since it released. The second video in response is getting the same. I found it half interesting and I get it. I too will keep my armour, I learned long ago the extent to which armour protects you from racing DH Mtn bikes.

As for heat I found out very quickly on my first ride across the country that it was much more comfortable and sustaining wearing my jacket on the bike vs not despite the temperature. I tried riding with no helmet very briefly and put it back on too.

I like the 2 shirt idea for heat but it doesn't get hot enough here for any kind of real test.

Mesh to 95F temps will do fine, above that number we're better off using a cordura jacket with zip vents to regulate the amount of heat allowed to reach our bodies. I had a heavy 1000D cordura jacket I wore to Ak and back in 2018. Heavy and thus hotter but by soaking the heat out long sleeve, and only opening a few vents I rode for a 1000 miles in 105F through Utah and never got over heated. I'd read about this phenom many times on the bike forums, and it does actually keep you cooler than a mesh jacket after the temps climb past 95.

 

[bigjohnsd]

Mesh to 95F temps will do fine, above that number we're better off using a cordura jacket with zip vents to regulate the amount of heat allowed to reach our bodies. I had a heavy 1000D cordura jacket I wore to Ak and back in 2018. Heavy and thus hotter but by soaking the heat out long sleeve, and only opening a few vents I rode for a 1000 miles in 105F through Utah and never got over heated. I'd read about this phenom many times on the bike forums, and it does actually keep you cooler than a mesh jacket after the temps climb past 95.

Above 95f I do exactly this with the sleeves of my LDComfort L/S shirt soaked in water every hour and a half or two. By regulating the airflow in the sleeves (cuff adjustment) I can stay cool to cold, I also use a wet LD Comfort "doo rag" helmet liner to cool my head which is actually very refreshing and more than half the battle. YMMV