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2001 surger
- Thread starter EGG-3
- Start date
ANDYVH
New member
Find a local diesel fuel service shop, even the ones for heavy trucks. Many of them can clean, rebuild and flow match fuel injectors. The one next to Nick's BMW in Depere WI does it and charges less than $40 per injector. You get them back cleaned and flow matched and the results are great.
nrpetersen
Curmudgeon
Excuse my unplugged brain, but just what are the CO pot, the CCP, and the booster plug etc being talked about above?
Are you disabling or modifying the closed loop processor control of this engine? Is that really necessary? or even desirable
I'm not from the EPA.
Are you disabling or modifying the closed loop processor control of this engine? Is that really necessary? or even desirable
I'm not from the EPA.
....so YOU say.
Its a trap, guys. Mr. Petersen here (if that's his real name) will bust everyone who's ever modded their fuel system or removed their charcoal canister.
jammess
Jammess
Evening Master Petersen,
I've got two oilheads that don't ever see closed loop and have O2 sensors disconnected.
One of them has a CO Pot connected and the other would have but it is an '04RT so no place to connect the pot. Oh, and least I forget the catalytic converter fell right out of my '04RT back in '05, darndest thing.
roger 04 rt
New member
The CO pot is a variable resistor that plugs in to a standard connector on the R1100 series motorcycle. It is used to adjust the idling Carbon Monoxide level of bikes sold in countries that didn't require catalytic converters at the time of manufacture. By BMW spec, it gets adjusted to 1.5% CO, +- 0.5%. This results in an AFR (air to fuel ratio) of about 13.8:1.
The CCP (Coding Plug) is removed to access this CO function and seems to give an overall richer mixture on the 1100.
The clear message here is that when BMW wasn't required by law to ship a bike with a catalytic converter they preferred the richer mixture to the US stock setting of 14.7:1 with O2 sensor.
So is that needed or desirable? My answer would be only if you want your R1100 to perform its very best. To my knowledge there is not this option or R1150s.
Ideally you would richen the mixture a few percent AND keep closed loop since closed loop operation can adapt to low fuel pressure, battery voltage, injector flow and air filter degradation. In order to do that you would adapt something like the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 or MXT-L. Then you get programmable-AFR Closed Loop operation. This works quite well on the R1150 motor and I believe would function on 1100s too.
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Fires,Fires,And more Fires.I will get to the mail today but then back on shift for three.And thank you so much Red.
jammess
Jammess
Hi Roger,
Yes, the adaptive learning feature is certainly a positive attribute on the 1150. I really wonder about how or if this would work on the 1100. Somebody recently posted on one of these forums that the 1100 does not use closed loop. Wish I knew a bit more about just how the early Motronic actually works. I think there is a very early Motronic found on the '94-95' model 1100's that is different from the 2.2 Motronic used from '96 through the end of the 1100 run. But I don't really know for sure. I know the pin outs are different on the connector.
Earle, headed your way on 07/07. Going to look at a fairly new 2400 sqft 3 bath house for less than 100K. Uh, did I mention it has water damage from a broken upstairs pipe? Must be out of my mind.
Yes, the adaptive learning feature is certainly a positive attribute on the 1150. I really wonder about how or if this would work on the 1100. Somebody recently posted on one of these forums that the 1100 does not use closed loop. Wish I knew a bit more about just how the early Motronic actually works. I think there is a very early Motronic found on the '94-95' model 1100's that is different from the 2.2 Motronic used from '96 through the end of the 1100 run. But I don't really know for sure. I know the pin outs are different on the connector.
Earle, headed your way on 07/07. Going to look at a fairly new 2400 sqft 3 bath house for less than 100K. Uh, did I mention it has water damage from a broken upstairs pipe? Must be out of my mind.
roger 04 rt
New member
If there is an O2 sensor, then the ECU has Closed Loop capability, that's for sure. What is harder to know is to what extent the Closed Loop programs of the Motronic 2.2 can make use of its Closed Loop routines to make corrections to Open Loop fueling.
Many believe that it is limited on the 1100 and that is a reasonable view. On the other hand even a crude scaling factor accumulated from Closed Loop operation would allow more accurate WOT and Warm-Up fueling in case that fuel pressure or injector flow was on the low side of the design range.
Since I have never measured or observed the 1100, it would be just a guess on my part to say that some corrections are likely stored. And I admit that this could be completely wrong. If someone ever adds an LC-1 to an 1100, it would be possible to figure it out as I've done for the 1150. What I've seen on the 1150 is a slow accumulation of correction factors.
happy wanderer
Day Dreaming ...
Right now I'm running my 2000 1100RT with no O2 sensor, no CCP, no Booster Plug and a CO pot connected. It is pretty much surge free. And very loud since I also have a SuperTrapp muffler coming off a straight pipe on it. The stock muffler and cat converter is sitting in the shed. I am not sure I am going to leave it this way and will probably put the stock muffler and cat back on at some point here.
Red100RT, you said you have two oilheads with no O2 sensor. When you did this I wonder if you encountered what I did.
I currently still have two problems. When I cruise along at low RPM in low gears I still notice a sort of stumble in the idle or low RPM. As if it is missing on one plug briefly or not getting gas to one injector briefly is the only way to describe it. A miss sort of...
The other thing I have encountered is a very high idle when the bike it hot. I mean 5 bars hot as in fully warmed up or just off the highway hot. It wants to idle at 1300 to 1400 RPM. I have turned the BBS down to the point where the left side is completely closed and it still idles high. The throttle bodies are balananced however.
I have hesitated to do the zero=zero on this bike since it is a really low mileage (24K now) machine and should not need it. The TPS voltage is well within. acceptable range. I have also checked it for vacuum leaks with WD40 several times now and cannot find any leaks.
The other big mod I made was to add the GS intake tubes to this bike. Other than the fast idle I have to say it runs very well especially out on the highway! And I still get 43 MPG (US Gallons) with this setup. Slightly lower than my riding buddy with an identical but totally stock 97 RT.
Any ideas welcome.
Red100RT, you said you have two oilheads with no O2 sensor. When you did this I wonder if you encountered what I did.
I currently still have two problems. When I cruise along at low RPM in low gears I still notice a sort of stumble in the idle or low RPM. As if it is missing on one plug briefly or not getting gas to one injector briefly is the only way to describe it. A miss sort of...
The other thing I have encountered is a very high idle when the bike it hot. I mean 5 bars hot as in fully warmed up or just off the highway hot. It wants to idle at 1300 to 1400 RPM. I have turned the BBS down to the point where the left side is completely closed and it still idles high. The throttle bodies are balananced however.
I have hesitated to do the zero=zero on this bike since it is a really low mileage (24K now) machine and should not need it. The TPS voltage is well within. acceptable range. I have also checked it for vacuum leaks with WD40 several times now and cannot find any leaks.
The other big mod I made was to add the GS intake tubes to this bike. Other than the fast idle I have to say it runs very well especially out on the highway! And I still get 43 MPG (US Gallons) with this setup. Slightly lower than my riding buddy with an identical but totally stock 97 RT.
Any ideas welcome.
nrpetersen
Curmudgeon
But why would you want to willy-nilly disable the closed loop operation? It gives a stochiometric map-updating altitude trim (I know there is a pressure transducer in the Motronic), inlet air temp, and humidity trim (which has no sensor) and a fuel quality trim which would help us burn this darn corn liquor stuff.
If something's broke, fine - rip it all out like we did with our POS cars in the 70s. But why disable 20 years of software and hardware improvement benefits of a processor controlled engine? unless it is because of design oversight on the airflow matching assumptions of the 2 cyl boxer engine.
If something's broke, fine - rip it all out like we did with our POS cars in the 70s. But why disable 20 years of software and hardware improvement benefits of a processor controlled engine? unless it is because of design oversight on the airflow matching assumptions of the 2 cyl boxer engine.
jammess
Jammess
Hello Curmudgeon,
Simple to answer the question as to why defeat the closed loop operation, it runs better simple as that. In the case of the 1150 I think Roger's wideband O2 sensor with programmer is a better way. He also richens up open loop with a booster plug to compensate for lean running while in open loop however so in a way he is not making the EPA jump for joy either. Still thinking about going the LC-1 method on this bike as I am convinced it is the best way. I have spent a lot of money on my bikes this year and I need to take a rest so LC-1 is maybe a winter project.
Hello bcbeemer,
Yup, my '94 RSL has a tendency to idle a bit faster with 5 bars after disconnecting the O2 sensor, cutting the CCP jumper, and installation of the CO POT. Don't notice any other abnormalidies though. Actually the '94 runs much like my '81 R100RT with the Bing carbs. No surging so I haven't fooled around with the AIT sensor like I did on the 1150. On the 1150 Motronic there is no way to connect a CO Pot. As I understand it if you disconnect the O2 sensor on the 1100 the computer will then look for a CO Pot and if it doesn't find one I'm not sure what happens. On the 1150 if you disconnect the O2 sensor it just simply takes inputs from all the other sensors which it does in open loop. One difference is it still needs a fueling map which is determined by which code plug is present. My 1150 does not run well at all with no CCP unlike the 1100 which likes no CCP. In fact on my '94 1100 there is no socket for a CCP just a jumper in the wiring harness which is the equivalent to a yellow CCP. Also, there was no connector present to accept a CO Pot and I had to wire mine in directly to the Motronic. The '01 R1100RT in Idaho that I have been fooling around with interestingly enough does have a connector to plug in a CO Pot, go figure. Also, I kind of think the Motronic in the 1100's doesn't have the learning capability like the 2.4 Motronic used on the 1150,s but I'm not sure. There are many things BMW I'm not sure of to tell the truth. One thing I do know and that is I like the results of what I have done.
Simple to answer the question as to why defeat the closed loop operation, it runs better simple as that. In the case of the 1150 I think Roger's wideband O2 sensor with programmer is a better way. He also richens up open loop with a booster plug to compensate for lean running while in open loop however so in a way he is not making the EPA jump for joy either. Still thinking about going the LC-1 method on this bike as I am convinced it is the best way. I have spent a lot of money on my bikes this year and I need to take a rest so LC-1 is maybe a winter project.
Hello bcbeemer,
Yup, my '94 RSL has a tendency to idle a bit faster with 5 bars after disconnecting the O2 sensor, cutting the CCP jumper, and installation of the CO POT. Don't notice any other abnormalidies though. Actually the '94 runs much like my '81 R100RT with the Bing carbs. No surging so I haven't fooled around with the AIT sensor like I did on the 1150. On the 1150 Motronic there is no way to connect a CO Pot. As I understand it if you disconnect the O2 sensor on the 1100 the computer will then look for a CO Pot and if it doesn't find one I'm not sure what happens. On the 1150 if you disconnect the O2 sensor it just simply takes inputs from all the other sensors which it does in open loop. One difference is it still needs a fueling map which is determined by which code plug is present. My 1150 does not run well at all with no CCP unlike the 1100 which likes no CCP. In fact on my '94 1100 there is no socket for a CCP just a jumper in the wiring harness which is the equivalent to a yellow CCP. Also, there was no connector present to accept a CO Pot and I had to wire mine in directly to the Motronic. The '01 R1100RT in Idaho that I have been fooling around with interestingly enough does have a connector to plug in a CO Pot, go figure. Also, I kind of think the Motronic in the 1100's doesn't have the learning capability like the 2.4 Motronic used on the 1150,s but I'm not sure. There are many things BMW I'm not sure of to tell the truth. One thing I do know and that is I like the results of what I have done.
D
Delaware.Dave
Guest
When it comes to the topic of surging all sorts of ideas and theories abound. Not all exactly accurate however..
Roger is correct. There is a pressure sensor on the ECU main board and it is not in the airbox. I have seen it and recognized it for what it is. On my old '96 RT you could actually feel it change over sometimes when climbing severe grades at steady throttle. It would hiccup for a brief second and then keep on chugging along.
Another comment was that the "booster plug replaces the air temperature sensor in the airbox". Not exactly true.
In fact it is added (in series) to the existing thermistor circuit in the airbox to spoof the ECU into "thinking" the air temperature is 20 degrees celsius colder than it actually is. This has the effect of forcing the ECU to use a richer setting to compensate for the cold thus reducing surging. Supposedly...
What percentage of 1100s have the surge problem? I bought a '99 R1100RT a year and a half ago, and in the past 6300 miles, I have not experienced any surging.
happy wanderer
Day Dreaming ...
Well that is great and you are one of the lucky few that have a surge free bike!
But since you'r askeing, as far as I am concerned, ALL 1100s surge to one degree or another. At least in stock configuration they do. They run so lean in stock configuration that they cannot help but surge. Most people are so used to it they do not recognize it or just put up with it. Some bikes are a lot worse than others but from what I have seen they all have slight lean surge issues due to the EPA rules and design constraints.
Now this is true of most models but a lot of RS and S owners claim they do not have this problem. I have long suspected the cam timing on those engines is different as are the fuel maps but have zero proof because there is zero information on the innnards of the Motronic ECU.
happy wanderer
Day Dreaming ...
There was nothing nilly or willy about it. It was quite deliberate.
And please show me where you get this information on stochiometric map updating altitude trim. And all the rest of this info about what the Motronic is doing with the various inputs. Humidity trim? Seriously? Please post what technical document contains this information because I and a whole bunch of other folks would love to read it! Something is broke; the bike surges and does not run properly or I wouldn't be trying to fix it. The processor and closed loop control mode of the 1100RT is not up to the task or I would not touch anything. Why scratch when there is no itch?
And by the way, when you disconnect the O2 sensor on an 1100RT it stops surging immediately. Sure it runs richer, but it also runs better! Why do you think that is? Because the way it processes and handles closed loop operation sucks.
