Four finger braking?

[BCKRider]

I'm really curious why Greenwald (November ON Motosafe article) and other MSF coaches are so adament about 4-finger braking for experienced riders with normal finger strength and decent front brakes. Surely they know they know that a number of authors (David Hough, Ken Condon and Lee Parks in my library) strongly recommend using TWO fingers on the front brake lever, both for smoothness in transitioning between throttle and brake and also reduced time in getting on the brake.

Assuming you can bring your front tire to the point of sliding (or activating the ABS) on dry pavement with two fingers, is there another reason for using four fingers that I and the above authors have missed? This is real question. No intention to "flame" anyone.

The "two finger" folks put forth very cogent arguments for their position. The "four finger" people need to do the same. And here is your opportunity.

 

[roy]

The reasons I teach four fingers are:

If something goes wrong with your brakes and you need to sqeeze the lever closer to the bars your other two fingers are not in the way.

Not all bikes have dual front disk brakes so the extra sqeeze power may be required.

Mostly to develop the habit so when the need arises your fingers are in position.
Same applies for the clutch, may only need one or two fingers but I recommend use all you have for both controls.

Roy

 

[PGlaves]

Square pegs, round holes. But the pegs have to go in the holes.

I always try to use enough fingers to stop in the distance I have. That varies among my three bikes. My single disk F650 takes more lever pressure than my R1150R, for example. Beyond that, pronouncements are merely dogma.

 

[marchyman]

The reasons I teach four fingers...

I think I'd teach four fingers, too, to keep things less complicated to a new rider. But that wasn't the question. It's this part....

are so adament about 4-finger braking for experienced riders

... the experienced riders part. I fit my braking style to the bike I'm riding. I've not found a one-size-fit-all solution to be best.

 

[henzilla]

Consistent teaching methods... even though one style does not fit all. In basic education, it prob works as beginners need basic skills and instruction...Keep It Simple Seymour

But in real life, do what works for particular bike and style...personally my pinkie fingers rarely reach the levers anyways...both from many years of construction and tool pulling...it just doesn't bend like it used to
Most bikes I two finger...some three. I have yet to have to really grab that big handful. As mentioned, I am still using part of my hand on throttle control.

 

[BUDDINGGEEZER]

I would use 4 fingers, but I only got 3 3/4.

Ralph Sims

 

[jopars]

Four fingered (i.e. whole hand) braking has 2 specific advantages, over and above the amount of force which can be brought to bear;

- If the braking is excessive and the bike goes down, say due to front wheel lockup, there are no fingers under the brake lever to be broken when/if the bars hit the ground or other obstacle.

- It is possible, especially for neophytes, to roll on the throttle somewhat when applying front brake. This can be so pronounced, that the resultant acceleration can delay or completely negate any braking from the application of the lever. With whole hand braking, the whole hand can be "rolled" onto the lever, thereby positively shutting the throttle at the same time. This is more difficult or impossible with less than whole hand braking.

Now, both of these scenarios may have less relevance for experienced riders, and so the dogmatic approach to teaching one method or another is at odds with individual realities. It's one of the reasons I stopped instructing, especially specific, prescribed methods and programs.

FWIW, I generally use whole hand braking, but often use one or two fingers if/when circumstances permit or favor it. YMMV

JP

 

[sit]

Muslce memory. When the time comes that I need every last ounce of braking power, I don't want hesitation in my mind as it figures out if the situation is a two finger, three finger, or four finger stop. No matter what bike I am on, my bike, new bike, old bike or borrowed bike, my hand will always have full power available to it. Would suck to loose concentration for a second and forget that you are on your classic bike with drum brakes as you two finger it into the back of the car stopped in front of you.

But hey, to each his own, I'm just hoping this snow crap melts, I need a fix.

 

[98lee]

I would use 4 fingers, but I only got 3 3/4.

Ralph Sims

You must be a shop teacher.

 

[johns3]

You must be a shop teacher.

OUCH.


I tend to always use the same muscle memory for all hand braking- mountain bike tandem or motorcycle- two fingers. Always have index and middle fingers on the levers. In a (motorcycle) panic stop or (MTB tandem) rough downhill singletrack, I don't want to have the delay of moving fingers to the lever- so I always have two fingers covering the handlebar levers.

John

 

[BUDDINGGEEZER]

You must be a shop teacher.

Nope, I was helping some football coaches assemble a blocking sled, got the middle finger of my right hand in a pinch point, a coach hit the sled and cut the end of my finger off below the fingernail above the knuckle, slick as a whistle.

Ralph Sims

 

[BCKRider]

As the OP, I would like to thank all of you for your replies. To summarize:

1. If you ride only one bike and can get maximum front braking with two fingers (for most this is the index and third fingers) that is the way to go. You can cover the brake in traffic or other dicey situations, reducing the reaction time in getting on the brake. You can also much more smoothly transition between slowing and accellerating. Also, no worries about possibly holding the throttle open if your STOPPING procedure requires pulling in the clutch.

2. If you own (or rent or borrow) bikes with varying braking capability, as Paul Glaves pointed out, you may need to use more fingers on some. I think the point is to get in some stopping practice before you need it. I also have to admit I am not comfortable with this idea. I think having ONE set of practiced habits on ONE bike is your best bet. Clearly, there are many multible bike owners who can change their habits and ride safely. David Hough's accident though on a borrowed sport bike underscores the necessity of safe practice on an unfamiliar machine.

3. The moral is find an empty parking lot (or road) and practice increasingly hard stops at gradually increasing speeds. However many fingers you need to stop that bike as quickly as possible is the number of fingers you should use for the lightest braking in a corner. As so many have pointed out, what you do in an emergency is what you do regularly but with more emphasis.

 

[dwestly]

Four fingered (i.e. whole hand) braking has 2 specific advantages, over and above the amount of force which can be brought to bear;

- If the braking is excessive and the bike goes down, say due to front wheel lockup, there are no fingers under the brake lever to be broken when/if the bars hit the ground or other obstacle.

- It is possible, especially for neophytes, to roll on the throttle somewhat when applying front brake. This can be so pronounced, that the resultant acceleration can delay or completely negate any braking from the application of the lever. With whole hand braking, the whole hand can be "rolled" onto the lever, thereby positively shutting the throttle at the same time. This is more difficult or impossible with less than whole hand braking.

Now, both of these scenarios may have less relevance for experienced riders, and so the dogmatic approach to teaching one method or another is at odds with individual realities. It's one of the reasons I stopped instructing, especially specific, prescribed methods and programs.

FWIW, I generally use whole hand braking, but often use one or two fingers if/when circumstances permit or favor it. YMMV

JP

As an MSF RiderCoach, I can tell you that one of the main reasons we stress 4-finger braking in the basic course is to prevent accidental throttle opening during braking. New riders (and more than a few experienced ones) have a real tendency to try and ride wrist-up, causing unintentional throttle opening if they keep a finger(s) wrapped around the throttle during front brake application. This also happens with experienced dirt riders, who for obvious reasons have learned to manipulate brake/throttle while off-road. Once riders get past the basic course and get some time/experience on a bike, most tend to adjust their braking technique to fit their own style, bike requirements, etc.

On the other hand, it drives RiderCoaches crazy, as we have to continually adjust our own riding styles. When we do basic courses, we spend a lot of time demonstrating techniques and exercises to the students. As such, we have to make sure we are using 4 fingers on the brakes, using both brakes all the time, covering the clutch, etc. I have to do a serious mental mindshift when I get on the training bike during a course, particularly (as occasionally happens) when I've just come off a track day the day before, where I've been one-fingering the front brake lever, almost never using the back brake, and clutchless up-shifting my Ducati...

 

[pmdave]

The "four finger braking" mantra comes from a history of instructors (now "RiderCoaches") teaching novices to ride a bike. I don't recall the four-finger thing part of the actual curriculum, just something that instructors could pick up on to further intimidate a new rider. New riders are also admonished to never brake while leaned over. Since four finger braking doesn't make logical sense for all bikes, arguments have been created about pinched fingers, etc.

I don't know whether the fabled four finger fanatiicsm is alive and well in the BRC curriculum, but I suspect not.

My suggestion is that at some point a rider ought to move beyond novice techniques.

First, your "muscle memory" needs to be adjusted to the bike you are riding. I managed to cartwheel a borrowed Truimph Triple R end over end because when faced with the need for a quick slowdown my braking habits were way too powerful for the Triple R. (huge double front discs, short wheelbase, light rear end, and no ABS). I'm with Paul here. You need to have the correct habits for the motorcycle you're riding. Like tube socks, one size braking fits none.

Second, I believe in having the skill and habits to brake at any time, including while leaned into a curve--or even trail braking while leaning. That requires smooth transitions from throttle to brake, and from brake to throttle. And transitions require you to control the brake lever and throttle simultaneously. Unless you have a spare finger on your right hand, that means two-finger or three-finger braking.

Third, as (the late) Hugh Hurt reminded me a few years ago, the majority of crashes occur on straight level roads in daylight, with a good view of the road--where you don't predict a crash might happen. His point was to cover the front brake lever at all times. And if you are covering the lever, you'll need to control the throttle with one or two digits wrapped around the grip.

Of course, you can do whatever you prefer. After a presentation on braking a couple of years ago, a silver hair female responded that she found it too confusing to use her hand for braking as well as throttle, so she only braked with her foot, leaving her right hand to focus on the throttle. She was older than I and still alive, so who am I to argue with her technique?

pmdave

 

[B1Pilot]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I never touch my back brake on my RT... this was challenged by the 30yr harley bike cop MSF instructor at the mandatory advanced rider course on base.... that was until I showed him that standing on my pegs I could complete the stop better than any other bike there using only my right hand... Interestingly enough, I never seem to forget my back brake on my dirt bikes, and ride those with split fingers at all times... different bikes, different habit patterns.

habit patterns are of course important, until such time that the technology obviates them or makes them less helpful than need be.... similarly I, I never touch the rudder pedals in flight on my aircraft (something near impossible to do in any prop-driven aircraft). I would love to see some CFI tell me I "had to" use rudder pedals...

 

[BCKRider]

pmdave wrote "I don't know whether the fabled four finger fanatiicsm is alive and well in the BRC curriculum, but I suspect not."

Dave, I LOVE the alliteration! (Close contender to a humorous outdoor article a friend wrote; Bugging Big Bass Before Breakfast.) But I think this fanaticism is still alive and well.

And I think I even understand it in the BRC. Those "RiderCoaches" have a lot to communicate in a very limited amount of time. They have no knowledge of the bikes their students will soon be riding. I think "four finger braking" makes sense in this context.

What bothered me in Kevin Greenwald's "Motosafe" column in the November ON was that he was talking about experienced riders taking the ERC on their own bikes and said "...and usually only need minor admonishment to drop inefficencies, such as one or two finger braking..." I think there is a consensus here that on many (not all) street bikes, two finger braking is the most efficient way to control speed. While I can see the purpose of dogma on the BRC, I would think dialogue would be more appropriate for the ERC. Some people who take the ERC don't buy the books which might open their minds on a number of things about riding.

Please understand I respect Greenwald's much greater experience than mine on motorcycles - both miles and years. He also writes well. Wish he would share his considered view on this this thread.

 

[roy]

ERC Instructors. how many people do you see that don't use the front brake or use it very sparingly?

Reason I ask is that I have taken the ERC course twice and have noticed usually two or three riders in each group that was very lax with the use of the front brake and not very good with the rear either. During the quick stop exercises they would go at least 20 -30' farther than the people using both brakes.

Yes, as a BRC instructor I teach people to use all of their fingers on both controls. This is a Basic / Beginners riding course and we are doing our best to provide the students with as much information in a short time as possible. I can't speak for others but as an example: How would you explain to a new rider with very limited skils that it is better to use two fingers for this situation and possibly three fingers here and etc....

As experienced riders do what works for you. My technique is probably different than BCKrider who is different than...

Roy

 

[greenwald]

pmdave wrote "I don't know whether the fabled four finger fanatiicsm is alive and well in the BRC curriculum, but I suspect not."

Dave, I LOVE the alliteration! (Close contender to a humorous outdoor article a friend wrote; Bugging Big Bass Before Breakfast.) But I think this fanaticism is still alive and well.

And I think I even understand it in the BRC. Those "RiderCoaches" have a lot to communicate in a very limited amount of time. They have no knowledge of the bikes their students will soon be riding. I think "four finger braking" makes sense in this context.

What bothered me in Kevin Greenwald's "Motosafe" column in the November ON was that he was talking about experienced riders taking the ERC on their own bikes and said "...and usually only need minor admonishment to drop inefficencies, such as one or two finger braking..." I think there is a consensus here that on many (not all) street bikes, two finger braking is the most efficient way to control speed. While I can see the purpose of dogma on the BRC, I would think dialogue would be more appropriate for the ERC. Some people who take the ERC don't buy the books which might open their minds on a number of things about riding.

Please understand I respect Greenwald's much greater experience than mine on motorcycles - both miles and years. He also writes well. Wish he would share his considered view on this this thread.

As the original poster, I suppose I owe you some sort of a response. After all, I think you were genuinely interested in the logic of consistent braking habits, and I have never been one to restrict debate - to the contrary, I encourage it, which is why I penned that guest article in MotoSafe (which by the way, went national on other venues and is now referenced on some military bases - actually had to grant my 'release' for that).

But you were forgivingly naive to have tossed in "No intention to 'flame' anyone."

Understanding human nature from the perspective of 30+years in the trenches of society (some call it Law Enforcement), we don't all metabolize advice the same way, and I knew by the end of the day your innocent challenge would morph into a target on my back, so I stayed in the bleechers to merely observe.

Only a couple of posts into your thread, my training philosophy was given the derogatory label of "dogma."

Further on, the MSF was again 'demonized' as out of touch and draconic in their thinking, as if all us MSF RiderCoaches are goose-stepping robots.

Brake any way you want - there are no experts - especially with anecdotal observations that little old ladies who only rear-brake and are still around is somehow a relevant contribution to a rather serious skills discussion.

I appreciate your intent (and the comments you directed towards me) and will continue to contribute (or step into the crosshairs) when I am sufficiently motivated.

I'll just keep a fire extinquisher a bit closer for however long it takes to eventually get 'flamed' - comes with the territory. Besides, bleechers get boring after a while!

Ride Safe!

 

[aa3jy]

I remember going round for round with Ray Ochs of MSF concerning the 4-finger vs. 2-finger technique...finally after many emails I got him to allow the students or I should say customers to try 2 and 4 finger braking during that braking exercise portion and then ask them of their thoughts...

 

[pmdave]

My hat's off to anyone who spends their valuable time as an instructor or RiderCoach. Certainly there is a need for better skills and habits. I cringe at the memory of many events where hundreds/thousands of riders demonstrate their ignorance and lack of skill. If I come across as harsh about how instructors/coaches act, it's from a number of years of association and observation, but in no way do I wish to degrade any of you.

However, let's note that the MSF "Experienced RiderCourse" is really the Basic RiderCourse retuned slightly so it can be ridden on your own bike. What is meant by "Experienced" is someone who learned to ride but hasn't yet taken a formal training course. In most states, it would be naive to assume someone who has been riding for a couple of years would take a "basic" course--although it probably wouldn't hurt them. Today's ERC is similar to the old Better Biking Program of yesteryear, when the term "advanced rider" was code for someone who was way over their head.

The problem I see with today's version of the ERC Suite is that riders who really are experienced tend to be beyond the ERC curriculum. Yet the track schools are too intense and not focused enough on street survival tactics. So, a rider with many years of experience thinks, "maybe I should take the course for experienced riders, and see if I have some skills that need honing, or perhaps some bad habits to fix." The ERC probably hits the mark for those "advanced" riders, but IMHO it's not as useful for a truly experienced rider as it is hawked to be.

I like the TEAM Oregon approach, where they look at the statistics and then design a course to answer the problems. For example, TEAM Oregon has noticed that they have a large percentage of motorcyclists who have never gotten endorsed, and unendorsed riders are over-represented in serious crashes. So, they have a one-day course (run on a go-cart track, I understand) that gives the experienced-but-unlicensed rider some tips on cornering, braking, etc. and results in a completion card good as a license test waiver. The rider gets some coaching without a lot of BS, picks up some potentially life-saving techniques, and gets to ride legally.

pmdave