So what's the probem with two finger braking?

[Anyname]

In a recent thread, Kevin Greenwald mentioned the following regarding a rider induced low side:

"Finally, if cameras existed for every curve on every road (I know - the conspiracy buffs out there already believe they do!), this would just have been Video # 1,575,433 of what 'Front Brake Only,' or 'Two-finger Braking,' or 'Rear Brake Only' results in."

I get that it's best two use both brakes, but I don't understand problem with two fingers on the front brake. I used to commute on heavily traveled roads in eastern Mass. where random panic stops were common. Typically, it was also not possible to have a decent cushion either in front of or behind the bike. My drill for dealing the panic stops was a) try to always know where the following vehicle was. b) brake as hard as possible (having my fingers already on the brake helped with the reaction time) and c) dive for the space between the two lanes of traffic. More than once I was nearly stopped before I could implement step c. This meant that I needed to have good throttle control to regain forward motion.

Two finger braking seems to be an advantage due to no time being lost in transitioning fingers from the throttle and brake. For the same reason, I try to adjust my rear brake pedal so that my foot "covers" the brake. I will add that I do practice panic stops and under controlled conditions I don't find it difficult to stop hard enough that the front tire leaves a black mark on the pavement.

So, what's the downside to my strategy?

 

[35634]

One argument against 2 finger braking is if your brake goes mushy the lever will trap your other 2 fingers and not get full travel. Possible, but I hope I'd notice a mushy brake before needing it in an emergency. I prefer 2 finger braking, especially in stop & go situations where full braking isn't a priority.

 

[ANDYVH]

Four finger braking is taught in the MSF BRC because it is the best tactic to teach new and untrained riders, to simplify the multi-tasking process of throttle, clutch and brake control. In my 18 years as a MSF instructor, I have seen many new students struggle with accurate, precise control of the throttle and brake, if they attempt to use both at the same.

At the BASIC rider level, it is easier to learn controls when they are seperated, and the developing rider can learn the skill sets needed for each control aspect. Later, as the control techniques improve, and rider confidence improves, then developing two finger braking skills can be done.

But also, learning four-finger braking skills is good to develop the full braking capabilites of the bike and rider. I have had many ERC students not show adequate braking capabilites, and not braking the bike to the abilities of the bike or the rider. SO it is important to learn what the bike can do in four-finger braking mode for those times when the rider needs all the braking possible.

As a rider develops and expands the skill sets of braking and throttle, then a blended use of two-finger and four-finger braking is good. But the point is, the rider MUST develop and practice the skills to know what works best when needed.

 

[roostershooter]

If you're riding an RT with servo brakes, two fingers are plenty!

 

[dwestly]

Being an MSF RiderCoach actively teaching new riders, I can tell you that having the students utilize 4 finger braking does serve a purpose . Primarily, keeping fingers off the throttle while engaging the front brake lever prevents new riders from unintentionally and simultaneously opening the throttle. It basically separates the braking and throttle control, which for new riders trying to master basic skills is a good thing. Once riders gain experience, they naturally gravitate to throttle/front brake mechanics which are best suited to their type of bike, riding and personal requirements.

As for myself, I find that my front brake control changes with the different bikes I ride. If I'm on my GS, its generally the two middle fingers, leaving the first and fourth fingers to simultaneously manage the throttle. When I'm on the racetrack with my Ducati 1098, I'm one-fingering the front brake, as that gives me the most control and feedback during trail-braking into the corners. If I two-fingered the Duc with its Brembos and race pads, I'd probably end up low-siding myself in a corner... The real challenge comes when I go from a track day one day to teaching a Basic Rider's Course the next. I refer to it as going from 160 to 6 mph. I really have to focus on using all four fingers again, to ensure I set the proper example for the students!

 

[rxcrider]

Thanks for asking that question. I've been wondering that for a while myself. depending on the situation, I'm usually a 1 or 2 finger braker. Given the responses, I think I'll stay that way. I may have to try out the middle 2 and see how that feels. I normally ride with the index resting on the lever and will add the middle finger if needed.

 

[ANDYVH]

Four fingers or two fingers, GS or sport bike, track day or traffic commute, the real issue is to find what your real capabilities are, and practice various methods to learn what works for you, and then practice MORE to learn what methods best suit the ride at the time.

If you are a new rider, or ride a bike with less capable brakes (like my 76 R100RS) then four fingers may the best.

If you are an experienced rider on a bike like a S1000RR, then one or two fingers (as I found out on the S1000RR) is plenty for many riding situations.

But, again, find out what works for you and practice it. I am always surprised when teaching an ERC when the students show their braking capabilites. I swear, some of them apply the brakes like they're afraid to hurt the bike. But really, its because many of them never practice real braking skills until "the event" is suddenly upon them, and then all manner of poor skills and choices become evident. That is NOT the time to find out how marginal your skills are!

 

[ka5ysy]

.... I am always surprised when teaching an ERC when the students show their braking capabilites. I swear, some of them apply the brakes like they're afraid to hurt the bike. But really, its because many of them never practice real braking skills until "the event" is suddenly upon them, and then all manner of poor skills and choices become evident. That is NOT the time to find out how marginal your skills are!

I have noticed that a lot of the long-time riders still have the idea in their heads that if you touch the front brake you are going to be ejected over the front of the bike when it does a stoppie. They are generally riding large, heavy cruisers too ! Some guys even have ABS and have no idea what it feels like to have it operating at maximum brake force.

We sometime do a demo showing, with each brake and then both brakes, what actually will happen to stop distance. That generally gets the message across.

 

[tmoyer]

I was going to offer my MSF perspective but Andy and dwestly pretty much covered it.

 

[PGlaves]

"Finally, if cameras existed for every curve on every road (I know - the conspiracy buffs out there already believe they do!), this would just have been Video # 1,575,433 of what 'Front Brake Only,' or 'Two-finger Braking,' or 'Rear Brake Only' results in."

If this refers to the video of the guy who went of the road and down, between Lajitas and Presidio in Texas it really shows the results of over riding one's skills. I ride that road often - twice yesterday in fact. It is hilly, curvy, sandy sometimes, off camber, and has a 50 mph speed limit. Curve warning signs range from 20 mph to 45mph.

I am not an expert at accident reconstruction or reviewing optically distorted videos but my take on the accident is that he was going a bit fast, had an Oh $#!+ Moment, grabbed a little front brake and stomped a lot of rear brake, and wobbled himself and the bike right off the road. My take on it is that if he hadn't stomped the rear and slid it a little bit he would have been just fine.

This is a road that bites exhuberant motorcyclists who try to ride it at 102% of their skill level - whether that level be low or high. Every now and then one dies. More often EMS hauls them past out house on the way to Alpine.

 

[darrylri]

If this refers to the video of the guy who went of the road and down, between Lajitas and Presidio in Texas...

Just to clarify, this is in reference to this thread, of a guy dumping his bike near the Rock Store on Mulholland Hwy in LA. There's a short video in the thread showing him coming around a tight right hander only to notice that there's CHP cruiser idling on the other side of the road... Greenwald's post, #4 in that thread, has the comment that started this thread.

 

[Anyname]

OK, so far it seems like the potential issues for two finger braking are:

1) Too much lever travel can trap your remaining fingers. I guess that should be obvious if your bike falls into this category. I had to replace the ancient brake hoses on my R80 to eliminate this.

2) There is the potential for applying throttle. I think I have always found my clutch disengaged after panic stops so if my throttle is partially open, the worse that would happen is unnecessary engine revving. If a stop is really scary, I won't have down shifted. If they are not totally distracting, I have often had the presence of mind to have down shifted. On a motorcycle I have found that the first hazard is the car in front of you, the second is the not so attentive driver behind you. After fast traffic stops I am prone to driving between the cars in front of me and that means rapid transition to forward motion. Back in the 1980's, a thoughtful gent took his 5 series BMW car motocrossing to avoid rear ending me. I have always been grateful and still wish I could thank him.

3) Riders may not brake hard enough. Likely true, I understand this to be true with cars as well. Some agency that investigates accidents noted that it was not uncommon for drivers to a) simply give up and stop driving when a crash seems inevitable or b) fail to brake hard enough. Some experts claim that for average car drivers, even in cars without anti-lock brakes, the best survival strategy is to mash the brakes for all they are worth. Seems like they are probably correct if you have four wheels and a steel cage around you.

A close call in traffic 30 years ago motivated me to take a close look at my braking skills and I found that the bike could safely stop faster than I had previously thought.

 

[mpmarty]

My 06 RT has the dreaded servo assisted brakes (ABS). I find that I tend to ride with all four fingers around the throttle grip until I near a hazard of any kind at which time I "palm" the throttle and wrap all four fingers around the front brake lever. Even with the ABS I have slid both tires in panic stops and just hung on and balanced the bike as best I could. The rear end stayed pretty well planted at the time as my wife was on the pillion and all three bags were full. I never got the impression that the bike was going to do a stoppie. In the rain I did a semi panic application of the front brake and dove to the left to try to avoid a collision with an antelope in the Nevada desert. The bike was stable before, during and after colliding with said animal. I truly believe that my RT saved both my wife and I an unpleasant meeting with the pavement. I don't believe that any of my prior bikes would have allowed us to keep on keepin' on.

 

[mneblett]

Another vote for four fingers -- the "no time-to-think-about-it, threshold/ABS-level-stop-NOW" response from having four fingers over the lever 100% of the time has saved me from stupid cager tricks a number of times over the last 30 years of Wash, DC commuter traffic.

Is two fingers "wrong"? No, of course not. Personally, however, and based on watching my MSF students, I believe four fingers results in faster *full power* stops. Anyone can instantly apply the brakes with either two or four fingers -- but I can count on one hand the number of people I know who could instinctively apply full braking power with two fingers *in real traffic* situations (as opposed to being prepared to execute such a manuever on a range) -- just doesn't happen in real life. Ergo, I ride with four fingers.

 

[greenwald]

In a recent thread, Kevin Greenwald mentioned the following regarding a rider induced low side:

"Finally, if cameras existed for every curve on every road (I know - the conspiracy buffs out there already believe they do!), this would just have been Video # 1,575,433 of what 'Front Brake Only,' or 'Two-finger Braking,' or 'Rear Brake Only' results in."

I get that it's best two use both brakes, but I don't understand problem with two fingers on the front brake. I used to commute on heavily traveled roads in eastern Mass. where random panic stops were common. Typically, it was also not possible to have a decent cushion either in front of or behind the bike. My drill for dealing the panic stops was a) try to always know where the following vehicle was. b) brake as hard as possible (having my fingers already on the brake helped with the reaction time) and c) dive for the space between the two lanes of traffic. More than once I was nearly stopped before I could implement step c. This meant that I needed to have good throttle control to regain forward motion.

Two finger braking seems to be an advantage due to no time being lost in transitioning fingers from the throttle and brake. For the same reason, I try to adjust my rear brake pedal so that my foot "covers" the brake. I will add that I do practice panic stops and under controlled conditions I don't find it difficult to stop hard enough that the front tire leaves a black mark on the pavement.

So, what's the downside to my strategy?

I applaud the OP for questioning my comments - no one is sacred around here when it comes to opinions (certainly not me!), no matter how many abbreviations may be listed in their sig line (guilty), so I'll do my best to respond.

I did write a piece published recently in ON, entitled "Beware The Critical Moment," in which I tried to make a case for four-finger braking rather than to consider this 'an evolving technique' type application. While I have received many positive responses, national publication by MSF and even adopted into the cirriculum on a military base in Georgia, I did not expect to win the world over.

One thing I've learned about braking is that few riders, if any, change the way they brake once they've become comfortable with a certain habit. As MSF instructors, we can only hope the 'habit' is a good one.

Andy VH has made some good points (we've taught an ERC together), and to them I would add that teaching 'experienced' riders in an ERC to reconsider their comfort zone is most difficult (I'm being kind here) and often meets with extreme resistance, even when they cannot articulate why they brake the way they do. Nuff said on that.

Secondly, let me relate a recent experience that I and another RiderCoach (Bill Swoboda, Elkhart Lake, WI) endured this past summer while instructing a BRC - yup, a BRC.

Two students were racers from Road America, both showing up on sportbikes modified beyond my pay grade with special steering dampers, nitro-this and hyper-that. I have seen them ride, and they can turn in lap times on the Road America track that I could never imitate - these guys can ride.

That is, really fast.

Both were active duty in the Army, and were being required to earn an MSF card in order to have riding privileges in the military - basically, a rule now throughout our armed services.

So, long story short, both earned demerit points they didn't need to and almost did not pass, almost entirely on the exercises involving - you guessed it - braking.

Their quick-stops while braking with less than full fingers were sub-par (again, being kind here), involved involuntary throttle reving, poor distances, unbalanced application, breaking traction and a host of other deficiencies we as instructors commonly see with 'experienced' students.

Not to mention that while I could personally ride day after day, year after year with two-fingered braking (yup - I have the servo-brakes on my RT), what I'd want (and need) when my life is on the line in a braking emergency is four fingers and the potential for progression to full pressure, with no chance for throttle interference.

You can almost guaranty that, with full-fingered braking (alas, in my opinion).

So - Have I swayed anyone from their comfort zone? Unlikely, but in the end, the only thing I can guaranty will happen when a panic stop jumps out and bites you is that you will react consistent with what your everyday riding habits have been, and that is the one thing you can control - you decide.

Ride Safe and Aware!

 

[BCKRider]

The ONE THING that Greenwald and other proponents of 4-finger braking have not explained - at least in a way that I and some others can understand - is how do you control the throttle with four fingers on the brake lever? Or do you just accept instantaneous throttle closure every time you use the brakes? I, at least, cannot maintain throttle control by just pinching the grip in the web between my thumb and index finger.

I'm surprised those very competent racers Greenwald described had poor braking technique. Thought that hard braking, and the ability to smoothly transition from hard braking to hard acceleration, was an absolute prerequisite to fast lap times on a track.

I agree that in an emergency your actions will be what you continually practice, so I think settling on a given number of fingers (at least for a given bike) is vital. If there is a way to use four fingers for braking while maintaining throttle control, I'm more than willing to reconsider my use of two fingers on the lever.

 

[mneblett]

The ONE THING that Greenwald and other proponents of 4-finger braking have not explained - at least in a way that I and some others can understand - is how do you control the throttle with four fingers on the brake lever?

I have total control of the throttle during four-finger braking -- including being able to hold it open enough to prevent my cold airhead from stalling under heavy braking when still on fully choke -- by wrapping my thumb under the grip and maintaining full contact of the side of my thumb and my palm (up to ~ the knunkles at the base of the fingers) in contact with the grip -- a "C" shaped grip around the back of the throttle.

With minimal practice, manipulation of the angle of the wrist to control the throttle (up for closed, down for open) can be done without altering how the fingertips are being curled to pull the brake lever in.

 

[Anyname]

I applaud the OP for questioning my comments - no one is sacred around here when it comes to opinions (certainly not me!), no matter how many abbreviations may be listed in their sig line (guilty), so I'll do my best to respond.

(SNIP)

Not to mention that while I could personally ride day after day, year after year with two-fingered braking (yup - I have the servo-brakes on my RT), what I'd want (and need) when my life is on the line in a braking emergency is four fingers and the potential for progression to full pressure, with no chance for throttle interference.

Actually, my intent wasn't to question your comment but to understand what exactly is the issue with two finger braking.

It sounds like it comes down to braking pressure and throttle interference. I'll have to try four finger braking and see how it works for me. Are you aware of any information on reaction time with two vs four fingers? Also, do practitioners of four finger braking, ride with all four fingers on the throttle or with some fingers on the brake?

Thanks

 

[mneblett]

Also, do practitioners of four finger braking, ride with all four fingers on the throttle or with some fingers on the brake?

For me, four fingers resting on the brake lever at all times.

 

[dwestly]

I fully appreciate Greenwald's commentary and observations, but would like to add that there is another variable to this equation, and that is the capability of the braking system itself. Depending upon the sensitivity and capability of the system, two vs. four fingers could be a moot point. Case in point is a well setup bike with steel-braided lines, sintered pads, well-adjusted lever, etc. It takes very little pressure to bring these brakes to full braking capacity. In fact, if conditions allow and you are managing this setup to its maximum, i.e. threshhold braking, then I would suggest that maximum feel on the brake lever overrules the need for maximum pulling strength. Moreover, unless the bike has an ABS capability, executing a managed threshhold braking maneuver with four fingers while undergoing the whole adrenlin surge reaction on such a setup might prove uncontrollably difficult, sending the braking force right through the desired pressure for controlled threshhold braking and into lock-up.

However, we are talking about very fine points here, and certainly advanced techniques of which the majority of riders have no working experience and/or knowledge. Given this limiting factor, I certainly agree with Greenwald's point that for the vast majority of riders experiencing an emergency braking situation, there will be an immediate default to routine riding (and braking) behaviors.

Great technical discussion. Thanks!