Ethanol

[36654]

Where are the indignant howls????

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t...-before-november-2020-09-12?mod=mw_latestnews

 

[azgman]

Politicians will do anything for a vote. More Ethanol will be meaningless when we are all driving electric vehicles...

 

[stevenrankin]

Ama

The AMA has been fighting this for years. St.

 

[Stebe]

During a recent fill-up I quickly calculated my gas mileage, "Hmm, only 45 MPG, usually I get 49.8. Oh, that's right, they stopped selling the non-ethanol premium I'm used to." This has been my experience with pretty much every vehicle I've owned since the ethanol boondoggle was thrust upon us. Your mileage may vary, I won't argue with you, this is my experience perpetually repeated.

As to why no public reaction? It's an election year. That's my guess. Every election cycle one side advocates Boondoggle, the other Baloney. The Baloney pushers decry the horrors of Boondoggle, while the Boondoggle crowd points out the obvious failings of Baloney.

Then, they do whatever they want after the election.

It gets tiresome.

 

[36654]

During a recent fill-up I quickly calculated my gas mileage, "Hmm, only 45 MPG, usually I get 49.8. Oh, that's right, they stopped selling the non-ethanol premium I'm used to." This has been my experience with pretty much every vehicle I've owned since the ethanol boondoggle was thrust upon us. Your mileage may vary, I won't argue with you, this is my experience perpetually repeated.

As to why no public reaction? It's an election year. That's my guess. Every election cycle one side advocates Boondoggle, the other Baloney. The Baloney pushers decry the horrors of Boondoggle, while the Boondoggle crowd points out the obvious failings of Baloney.

Then, they do whatever they want after the election.

It gets tiresome.

It should be ~3.5% to reflect the lower BTU of the 10% mixture

 

[gregfeeler]

Where are the indignant howls????

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t...-before-november-2020-09-12?mod=mw_latestnews

Well, given that this was just announced this morning, I would give it some time.

 

[gregfeeler]

It should be ~3.5% to reflect the lower BTU of the 10% mixture

Nice article about ethanol from Road And Track:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cu...u were running straight,from 19.6 to 19.0 mpg.

 

[36654]

Nice article about ethanol from Road And Track:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cu...u were running straight,from 19.6 to 19.0 mpg.

The article was good, but the 2011 perspective on what would happen with corn supply (price) was a bit off.....

 

[gregfeeler]

The article was good, but the 2011 perspective on what would happen with corn supply (price) was a bit off.....

Projections are just (hopefully) educated guesses, and if there were even just about 50% accurate we could all get rich in the stock market. I found the apparent discrepancy between projected fuel mileage loss using 10% ethanol blend vs. the antidotal losses some people have reported very interesting.

I have been using a product called StarTron which is an enzyme-based fuel treatment which claims to counteract the effects of ethanol, and have seen about a 10% increase in mileage in my two K75s. Plus, they run as if they have more power. I don't see quite the same benefits in my K1200RS.

 

[36654]

Projections are just (hopefully) educated guesses, and if there were even just about 50% accurate we could all get rich in the stock market. I found the apparent discrepancy between projected fuel mileage loss using 10% ethanol blend vs. the antidotal losses some people have reported very interesting.

I have been using a product called StarTron which is an enzyme-based fuel treatment which claims to counteract the effects of ethanol, and have seen about a 10% increase in mileage in my two K75s. Plus, they run as if they have more power. I don't see quite the same benefits in my K1200RS.

The 3~3.5% number is simple chemistry. Beyond that you're in the realm of something that isn't a function of energy content or uniformity of combustion speed (AKI).

 

[RPGR90s]

I would like to ask Chris Gibbs if he thinks the free market should decide on Ethanol inclusion.

Bought a new 2007 Chevy Silverado rated for Flex Fuel.

Gas at that time was about $3.00/gallon and I was averaging about 18mpg with the big V8.

I stopped at a Meijer station one day and filled it up with E85 at a cost of $2.40 gallon.

Mileage for that tank was 9mpg.

Obviously, the economics don't add up in addition to only getting about 200 miles/tank.

THEN, I talk to a well respected mechanic in my neighborhood who tells me about all the Flex Fuel rated engines he works on with fuel system problems. His quote, "I wouldn't run E85 in any of my cars".

Like I said, let the free market decide.

 

[EUGENE]

It is all about BTUs. More corn =less BTUs.

 

[milo]

If we must subsidize corn, instead of for petroleum why not just throw the money at the food industry? I'd rather have cheaper tacos and corn flakes.

 

[36654]

If we must subsidize corn, instead of for petroleum why not just throw the money at the food industry? I'd rather have cheaper tacos and corn flakes.

Don't go there. Direct cash payments to farmers are projected to be ~ $37B this year and going higher. That's equivalent to the production cost of 20 Arleigh Burke-class Destroyers.

 

[lkchris]

Just note that since tetraethyl lead and MTBE have been banned, ethanol is the primary gasoline octane enhancement additive. For an I think brief period there was government consideration toward discouraging low compression motors since high compression motors are more fuel efficient ... which would have meant mostly premium, high octane fuel everywhere.

PS I wouldn’t mind someone explaining how high octane can be achieved today without adding ethanol. Yes, I understand retarded ignition via knock sensors, but that detracts from the efficiency created by high compression and is not an intelligent solution.

 

[52184]

MTBE and ethanol share a common problem in their extreme solubility in water. Neither is actually needed to produce a high-octane fuel, that’s just a matter of where you peel it off in the cat cracker and how much you’d be willing to pay at the pump-witness the availability of street legal non-ethanol fuels of 91 octane or better. That still leaves the problems of oxygenating the fuel to reduce CO emissions and compliance with the renewable fuel provisions of the Clean Air Act. So what’s really needed is an oxygenate that isn’t soluble in water and that doesn’t create its own string of ecological and economic mass disruptions.

Meanwhile, we flare off at the wellhead enough natural gas to power all the local delivery fleets and commuter vehicles we’d ever need. They’d all be super clean-burning, free of the moisture and corrosion problems of ethanol, require no oxygenates, and avoid the recycling and rare earth element issues of electric vehicles. But, it wouldn’t be renewable and it would cost you more to heat your house as NG prices would need to rise to a point of economic viability.

Choices, choices...

DeVern

 

[pglaves]

Meanwhile, we flare off at the wellhead enough natural gas to power all the local delivery fleets and commuter vehicles we’d ever need. They’d all be super clean-burning, free of the moisture and corrosion problems of ethanol, require no oxygenates, and avoid the recycling and rare earth element issues of electric vehicles. But, it wouldn’t be renewable and it would cost you more to heat your house as NG prices would need to rise to a point of economic viability.

Choices, choices...

DeVern

Here in the Permian Basin they drill both for oil and for gas. At the oil wells they flare off the gas in huge quantities because capturing it and piping it is too much expense and bother since they are after the oil. Use Google Maps and look around Pecos or Odessa, Texas. The number of and spacing of the wells is astounding.

 

[36654]

it would cost you more to heat your house as NG prices would need to rise to a point of economic viability.

You lost me with this statement. Dry NG is fairly useless for anything but heating or fuel.

 

[52184]

You lost me with this statement. Dry NG is fairly useless for anything but heating or fuel.

The standard line from the petroleum industry is that capturing gas that is currently flared at the wellhead, and transporting it to market, is not economically viable at today’s NG prices. Mandating by regulation the capture of that gas introduces costs that are sure to be passed on to the consumer, either at the (NG) fuel pump or through the PUCs in the states in their regulation of NG rates for home heating. Costs of conforming to environmental and other regulations are universally recognized as inputs in rate determination. Or, the capturing of gas that is now being flared could be subsidized, which means finding a funding source for that subsidy, and I’d bet that source would be more likely to come from a surcharge on NG than from other general revenue sources. Bottom line is that if we want to minimize or stop flaring someone will have to pay the bill, and that’s probably going to be the NG consumer regardless of the use to which they are putting the fuel.

Best,
DeVern

 

[rick601]

I would like to ask Chris Gibbs if he thinks the free market should decide on Ethanol inclusion.
...

Like I said, let the free market decide.

Free market? where's that? Ethanol has been shoved down our throats since the beginning-