This is going to be unpopular

[DMR]

what if...

There were day passes, and all the logistics of wristbands, security, fiscal accountablility, etc. were somehow worked out. Attendee shows up on thursday, pays the daily fee- $15 for example. Attendee decides to attend on Friday, too, for the entertainment at night. Another $15. At that point, requests giving $5 more for the rest of the weekend since he/she is having a good time. Now what? Sorry, you have to pay the final daily fee, two if stay overnight on Sat. That's not going to be popular, either.

Suggestions that the MOA does it this way because "that's the way it's always been done" is unfair. It has been discussed before, and there was an interesting point made earlier. Day passes do not guarantee additional revenue. It will be over 900 miles for me to WY. I do not have a great number of vacation days. Even doing the IB thing and leaving Wed and returning Sun is not very appealing, even with good weather. If I showed up on Friday and stayed until Sat afternoon and then took off, I may decide to pay for 2 days only and save myself some money. MOA makes less in that case.

 

[Muriel]

Welcome to our rally,
BMW folks and guests.
You've ridden far to join us
From North, South East & West
A private, weekend party
Is really quite a task.
Day passes don't exist here,
So pleasedon't even ask!!

Beemer shave

Cute, Karol!

I would think logistics would be the biggest factor here. Americade charges a fee for entering the Vendor area only. There whole setup is different, however, and I'm not sure how it could fall together. If the vendor area could be "on the other side of a fence" from the camping / seminar area, this might be worth considering. We certainly need a big list of pluses and minuses.

If a day pass were issued, I'd think seminars would not be included - many seminars were overfilled at West Bend as it was.

Some interesting perspectives here.

Muriel

 

[steviewonder]

One solution to the seminar issue might possibly be scheduling multiple times. If that's not possible then limiting them to the full event pass holders is certainly a viable option.

There are many issues but there always is with progress. No roads were an issue for early cars and a pervasive argument for keeping horses. Administrative issues like driver's licenses and traffic laws did not impede progress.

If the "it can't be done" naysayers were left to their ways there wouldn't be any motorcycles and therefore no club and certainly no rally. I'm sure the first rally was an administrative nightmare.

Remember ... Today's "the way we've always done it" was yesterday's "it can't be done".

 

[Sue]

Sue, with all due respect, these arguments are neither factual nor logical.

Hmmmm --- you could be right, I suppose.
I mean, what would I know about it?
I have only chaired three of these.

Day passes INCREASE attendance by attracting those who can't/won't attend the entire event. Those that do so now will continue to do so. The revenue effect is irrefutably positive. Remember there are a lot of interested parties who simply can't get off work or escape other conflicts for the full term of the rally. Day passes allow those who would otherwise not attend a chance to attend. The increased traffic is good for the club and good for the sponsors and vendors which is also good for the club because it increases the attraction for sponsors and vendors at subsequent events.

I would disagree with your logic on this. Would it be a good thing to open this up to local, non-riders and/or Brand X riders who only want to come in and look around? I believe this could require increased security (oops - that would mean increasing the bottom line).

Who would really benefit from Day-Passes? Would the membership benefit? I don't think so. (Again, just my uneducated opinion.)
Would the rally itself benefit? Definitely not, as it would add layers of additional issues to be dealt with.

Why are matinees cheaper than evening shows ??? It the same movie. Does that make it a ripoff for the evening customer? If you buy one Coke are you putting the person who buys a 6pack at a disadvantage?

Unlike movie theaters, we do not NEED to fill an otherwise-empty establishment.

Nope - I stick by my opinion on this, and that is that this is a club event and that the entry fee should be the same for all attendees. Consider it as "doing your bit to support your club."

But if it makes you feel any better, I have as much (or as little) voice in this matter as any other BMW MOA member.

 

[MADDOG]

Different colored wristbands

So you want someone to police every seminar and cause bad feelings when a day wristband wants into a seminar. { Or a Friday wristband that somehow "stayed overnight" and wants into a Saturday seminar.}
Also, this pits volunteers in the beer garden turning away "overnighters", plus really wondering if that beer should be served because MAYBE they came on motorcycles and really are going home.

Nothing but bad karma all around. { You ever volunteer for gate/security?? }

Jim Faucher
beer garden co-chair

 

[mcohen]

I can't see it as being unworkable. Most events other than the driving events (track and autocross) are central to the hotel. If you consider a campground as simply another type of hotel, there is little difference. Wrist band color for an event pass and another color for each day for a day pass. We already have attendees who don't stay at the central campground (hotels, motorhomes, etc) so it's not a new issue in many ways.

Stevie, you've missed my point entirely. The hotel is different than a campground because it is outside security. At the end of everyday, everyone must leave the secured area and the next morning everyone must pass the security gate. This makes it easy to check day passes. And with hundreds of attendees (versus 8,000) logistics are simpler all around. Even a set up that is exactly the same may be unworkable because of our larger size.

I have nothing against day passes -- just your example.

Michael

 

[steviewonder]

Sue, I also have run large club-related events. It's a LOT of work and I'm sure we all appreciate your efforts.

That, however, does not mean there is not room for improvement. Your view is myopic, IMO. For example, I don't recall saying that the general public would be able to buy a day pass. That's an option but not a requirement. My argument was for MEMBERS who might not be able to attend a full event. Day passes allow those MEMBERS to attend who might not be able to come to the full event.

If a person is going to steal something, he can do it from an event pass or a day pass. I don't see this is an issue if the passes are sold to MEMBERS.

BTW, MEMBERship is about INclusion, not exclusion. At least that's my viewpoint. I think the club would be well advised to make every effort to include members and consider positive change.

TODAY'S "IT ISN'T THE WAY WE'VE ALWAYS DONE IT" WAS YESTERDAY'S "IT CAN'T BE DONE"

 

[steviewonder]

Stevie, you've missed my point entirely. The hotel is different than a campground because it is outside security. At the end of everyday, everyone must leave the secured area and the next morning everyone must pass the security gate. This makes it easy to check day passes. And with hundreds of attendees (versus 8,000) logistics are simpler all around. Even a set up that is exactly the same may be unworkable because of our larger size.

I have nothing against day passes -- just your example.

Michael

Again, it's workable. Yes, they are different but they are also the same. The differences are relatively minor and certainly the difficulties can be overcome.

Let's work to INclude members rather than EXclude them. That will be better for the club in the longer term.

 

[ted]

In my belief moving to day passes and ala carte pricing would be a regression not a progression. Sort of replacing your Today's "the way we've always done it" was yesterday's "it can't be done" with a bit more relevant "Those who do not learn from the past, are condemned to repeat it." Both are not new ideas, both have been tried in some fashion or another.

It is indeed easy to say that we should do this or that, it is even easier to brush off those who have lived through volunteering or running a rally and accuse them of being close-minded Luddites motivated singularly by the fear of change. It appears it is not easy however to open your mind and accept that perhaps these folks are knowledgeable in their statements on these matters and maybe, just maybe, motivated by the benefits to the entire organization as a whole rather than some bizarre conspiracy of avoiding change.

Personally I'd like to see less throwing out a thought then responding to resistance with slurs and name-calling and more time spent instead detailing how it could work, fully addressing objections in more detail than simplistic and repetitive retorts, and for those who have learned from doing it, why it would work today where it has not worked well yesterday. In this case, I think two of the several issues raised, those of security and the massive increase in resources to run and police daypass and ala carte (those "resources" for the most part being volunteers who must be convinced to skip enjoying a once-a-year national rally they just took vacation to ride hundreds/thousands of miles to get to, to work for free doing such glorious jobs as repairing portable toilets and remaining pleasant while serving the angry, the irritated and the abusive), deserve much more than a flippant dismissal should you wish to be viewed as anything other than trolling for a flame war.

 

[MADDOG]

Post # 187

Stevie:

I believe that I posted several legitimate concerns.

Perhaps you might comment on some solutions?

Jim Faucher
beer garden co-chair

 

[steviewonder]

Who would really benefit from Day-Passes? Would the membership benefit? I don't think so. (Again, just my uneducated opinion.)
Would the rally itself benefit? Definitely not, as it would add layers of additional issues to be dealt with.

Absolutely the rally and the membership benefit. Let me count SOME of the ways:

1) The rally benefits from more MEMBERS getting a chance to attend who otherwise couldn't.
2) The MEMBERS benefit from getting to attend when they otherwise couldn't
3) The club benefits by attracting MEMBERS who might have increased interest and attend again.
4) The club benefits by having more positive feelings from more MEMBERS who are likely to attract new MEMBERS.
5) The revenue increase benefits the club and the rally.

Again, history is heavily laden with naysayers who tried to impede progress often cloaking themselves with experience which, while valuable, does not mean they are always right. Speaking of Wisconsin, one General Billy Mitchell comes to mind as a person who's foresight was not appreciated by the experienced naval commanders. There are countless thousands of other examples in every walk of life.

Finally, your logic of the impediments of growth is counterintuitive. If that line of logic was followed we should restrict the attendance at the current rally to a much smaller number to make it easier to manage. Ease of management should not be a primary goal.

FWIW, I never suggested nor do I necessarily support opening the event to non-members unless they are the escorted guests of members. I'm not sure how anybody arrived at that conclusion since I never suggested opening it to the public.

If making a contribution is what this is really all about, how about raising the entry fee to $100 and noting that "it's your contribution to the club"? Again, the logic is twisted to support the "it's the way we've always done it".

You see the demographics. I'm 57 and been riding bikes since I was 16 and owned them since I was 19. The future of the club isn't me ... or you ... it's the younger group and this club needs to do more to attract them and include them.

 

[steviewonder]

Stevie:

I believe that I posted several legitimate concerns.

Perhaps you might comment on some solutions?

Jim Faucher
beer garden co-chair

Controlled entry points.

Part of being in security is the ability to say "no". If the day passes are clearly advertised as being ONE-DAY-ONLY passes and not allowing permit to the seminars, then saying "no" is easy. If you're already enforcing entry to registered entrants, then there is no real additional task involved.

Oh, and ... YES, I've worked security at club events and had to ask people to stop doing things or leave and I've had them escorted out.

 

[bubbagazoo]

It costs me more than $35.00 to go for a 4 hour ride with my wife. Granted, we had the $14.00/head brunch buffet for lunch instead of the $7.00/head McDonalds burger and fries. Add $15.00 of fuel and we are over $40.00 for one afternoon's entertainment. Did we enjoy ourselves? Absolutely. Are we complaining about the cost? Not at all. Do this 3 times and the cost is $132.00. I think $35.00/head for even one day's admission is great value for the money. With the exception of Major League Baseball, I challenge you to find a major sports league game where you can get decent seats at that price.

From the view point of a potential volunteer at next year's rally, I don't want to have to try and tell somebody who has consumed a few too many wobbly pops that he/she has to leave the grounds. Nor do I want the responsibility of knowing that I am tossing a potential drunk driver out onto the roads. I don't know about Wyoming, but across Canada, the host/host organization can be held liable if somebody who consumes alcoholic beverages at their event gets involved in a vehicular accident. I realize there will be those who leaves on their own. But if I don't actually kick them out, I cannot be named in a lawsuit or criminal action. I'm not afraid of change. I'm afraid of being held responsible for somebody else's choices.

 

[MADDOG]

Security

Stevie:

With all due respect, I believe that you missed my point. The NEED for additional security personnel would go exponential for the seminars, and put them in an uncomfortable position of conflict. It will become more of a thankless job than it is now!

Also, you did not address the beer garden issue at all. These guys and gals have not signed up to be "security". Alcohol related issues are tricky enough also, that's why we have classes on ETOH intervention. D you think we have time to police armbands when the TRIPLE line is ten deep in front of the microbrew? These volunteers put in a tough four hours.

Sorry, but this idea is fraught with problems.

Jim Faucher
beer garden co-chair

 

[steviewonder]

OK ... this is my last post on the subject.

MEMBERS ... forget the general public thing. It's about MEMBERS. While likely not an issue of substance in Gillette, it could be if the rally was held in any proximity to an area of substantive population.

If security doesn't have the cohunas to keep somebody out of someplace they don't belong, then get some different security. I thought that was their job. Does security not keep unauthorized people out now, whether it's a seminar or the beer garden? What, exactly is the difference in refusing entry to one unauthorized person than another regardless of why they are unauthorized? Color me confused.

I've made my point that the club is reticent to even properly consider change and even more reticent to invoke it. It's definitely a rather clear sign of the demographics ...

"dagnabbit, Roy ... "

(a quote from Gabby Hayes, for you other "old timers" )

 

[knary]

In my belief moving to day passes and ala carte pricing would be a regression not a progression. Sort of replacing your Today's "the way we've always done it" was yesterday's "it can't be done" with a bit more relevant "Those who do not learn from the past, are condemned to repeat it." Both are not new ideas, both have been tried in some fashion or another.

It is indeed easy to say that we should do this or that, it is even easier to brush off those who have lived through volunteering or running a rally and accuse them of being close-minded Luddites motivated singularly by the fear of change. It appears it is not easy however to open your mind and accept that perhaps these folks are knowledgeable in their statements on these matters and maybe, just maybe, motivated by the benefits to the entire organization as a whole rather than some bizarre conspiracy of avoiding change.

Personally I'd like to see less throwing out a thought then responding to resistance with slurs and name-calling and more time spent instead detailing how it could work, fully addressing objections in more detail than simplistic and repetitive retorts, and for those who have learned from doing it, why it would work today where it has not worked well yesterday. In this case, I think two of the several issues raised, those of security and the massive increase in resources to run and police daypass and ala carte (those "resources" for the most part being volunteers who must be convinced to skip enjoying a once-a-year national rally they just took vacation to ride hundreds/thousands of miles to get to, to work for free doing such glorious jobs as repairing portable toilets and remaining pleasant while serving the angry, the irritated and the abusive), deserve much more than a flippant dismissal should you wish to be viewed as anything other than trolling for a flame war.

 

[ted]

the club is reticent to even properly consider change and even more reticent to invoke it.

Once again - don't confuse fear of change with demurring on a bad idea.

As always, you tend to get much further by presenting ideas and meeting objections with more than just shallow disdain for those who disagree.

 

[steviewonder]

OK ... I lied.
THIS is my last post.

Anything that EXclude MEMBERS is bad policy. EXcluding MEMBERS who can't attend the full rally is bad policy when viable options exist. Failing to properly consider those options is even worse policy. Brushing it off with the global "I've got experience" statement is neither valid nor effective. Experience is ONE factor that has great merit, but alone is NOT a guaranteed path to the best solution.

FWIW, I have literally spent thousands of hours over the past 20+ yrs volunteering my time to various clubs and their events all across the country. In EVERY case there has been progression in how the clubs are managed and the events conducted. I do not support change for the sake of change, but anybody who thinks this world is the same now as it was 5 yrs ago or will be 5 yrs from now is simply kidding themselves. Darwin was pretty clear about the end result from failing to adapt.

I vote with my membership. The rally is not a big deal to me so I can't say that I will leave the club if it lumbers on its present path. But it certainly is a personal deterrent to testing the rally waters. My philosophy about car or bike or other such clubs is that they should always be trying to reasonably serve as many members as possible even if that means considering changes to previously tried and true methods.

I don't see day passes for probably less than 100 MEMBERS as the huge logistical issue portrayed here. I don't see lines swamped with day pass attendees. I don't see those rowdy day pass MEMBERS looting the campground or starting riots at seminars. I don't see why day pass MEMBERS would be any less of contribution to the rally and the club. I guess I see a MEMBER as a full MEMBER and not relegated to a different membership class/status based on rather they are day pass attendees or full event attendees.

 

[ted]

Anything that EXclude MEMBERS is bad policy.

This makes no sense. Membership itself costs $32 a year. It is under your reasoning a barrier itself (and thus as an "anything" must be abolished?)

Charging $30 for four days of everything instead of $15 for 8 hours of some things doesn't limit or exclude anyone anymore than the cost of gas at $15 a fillup instead of $10 stops anyone from recreational riding. What it does is weigh the costs, among other things, of a massive increase in volunteer effort required (regardless of how many you sell, unless each holder is assigned an individual volunteer proctor then the entire infrastructure must be built and staffed), and the (real or perceived - doesn't really matter, does it) threat to security of personal items left unattended in tents or elsewhere.

Once again, these ideas are not new. They have been tried before. You'll have to do better than "I don't see..." if you want to overcome the objections of anyone who has actually run (or even volunteered at) at a BMW MOA National Rally.

 

[mika]

Stirring the pot in another direction

Day passes are doable.
They would require special planning in every case.
They will incrementally increase the expense to put on an event.
It is difficult to determine what the break even point really is, but granted not impossible. The problem in that analysis is valuing, location to location, the lost revenue by people moving to day passes from the inclusive Rally pass.

Why bother?
Is the national rally really a recruiting tool for a national organization?
Are their alternatives to how the rally is run that could meet the needs and wants to day visitors and serve a recruiting goal at the same time?

I personally do not see the rally as a recruiting tool. To the extent it is a recruiting tool it is a result of the law of unintended consequences.

Alternatives have been suggested in this thread by others that are worth investigating. HodagÔÇÖs idea of taking an event to a local park is one example. If you were to search threads following past rallies you would find others.

Who benefits from day passes we have been discussing?
Locals, the large majority of which I suspect are working people.
There are many other profiles that can be come up with. My point is to set up the next question.

Who should benefit from day passes or discount pricing?
The first group that we should be looking at in any discount pricing is our senior member group. While many of our members are well or very well to do in their retirement there is a significant portion whose income is having trouble keeping up with increasing expenses. These are the members that built the club, volunteered at past rallies and helped both grow over the past 35 years.

I support the idea of day passes. I urge the BoD to look at setting up a discount pricing scheme for our senior members. The program should have a variety of metrics built into it that can help determine the impact of future pricing schemes.