This is going to be unpopular

Sue Rihn-Manke said:

And all I would ask is that whoever comes up with the idea also come up with a workable plan ...

One that would not put people in the beer garden and then back on their bikes

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Ummm, I don't think you had that anyway. I know no one noticed me as I left either of the two (non-contiguous) days I managed to ride down from my home in Manitowoc. Not that I downed even three beers the whole time, but I have no doubt this was not policed closely.

One that would not create a safety or a security issue for our attendees
One that would not increase the work load for the already over-burdened volunteers

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Simple answer for both. Segregated camping areas. This doesn't have to be done 'festival style'. Day pass wearers don't have any reason or allowance to go to the camping areas and the camping areas have no reason or need to be intermingled with the vendor/food/show/etc. areas. But this is just my humble opinion as a guy who has spent only two days total at BMW MOA rallies (and been puzzled after all the years I rallied in cars - TSD rallies, fun rallies, but no camping or drinking rallies like youse guys have) but decades around racing and car stuff. Road America has camping and it sells day passes and I doubt that many manage to stay over without proper credentials (I've never tried, living 20 miles from the track). Security monitors lots of different gates there. More than MOA wants to monitor, but you can limit your access according to how much security you have.

One that would not hurt the bottom line of the rally, but rather increase it. (And show statistical data to back it up)

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I am a single data point that was very close to not appearing at all. I figured $35 was a lot for a half day Thursday and I don't want to camp. I managed to free up time to come back a second day on Saturday, but I came very close to not attending at all. Those are the people you're not hearing from because they have no reason to read the thread or the subforum.

I would ask that those who think they have a great plan for ways to implement this concept to volunteer --- I mean REALLY volunteer --- at a national rally.

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Having been in this club for upwards of a month, I thought maybe I was a bit too green.

Until you have actually walked in these shoes, you cannot truly understand all of the ramifications of your proposal.

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I like to think that 22 years of very active BMW CCA membership (Oktoberfest committee chair, chapter president, newsletter editor, board member, driving instructor, etc.) gives me some credibility, along with my 20-odd years in SCCA and IMSA racing. I know how big club events can run and I do not see day passes for your rallies as insurmountable or undesirable. I would have bought two ...

Finally, for our OP, the liability waivers are very standard in motorsports clubs and events. I've signed more of them than I can remember. Strictly speaking, in Wisconsin they probably aren't necessary because we have a 'recreational uses' statute that protects the organizers from ordinary liability in almost any activity in which you're having fun. But the national clubs don't like the idea of relying on state law, so they all use them anyway. Just sign the damn thing.

Just as a data point on day passes: A friend of mine and her husband had their helmets and jackets stolen out of the parking lot at MotoGP two weeks ago. This was a motorcycle event, attended primarily by motorcycle people. They wound up having to buy a couple cheap helmets so they could get home (CA is a helmet law state).

I know that there is some desire for day passes, but I can't help but wonder what would happen if we allowed the general public in. Unlocked tents, gear on bikes and the like might prove a very tempting target if we encouraged people to come in courtesy of a cheap pass.

You can see that $35 was at the break point for many that had some level of enthusiasm for the marque here.

Having managed security for the rally in Rheinbeck, I can't imagine the logistics behind checking each and every armband as people ride/walk/drive in and out of the camping area. In many instances, it would be difficult, if not impossible to segregate the two areas without building a fence - expense we'd rather not spend and which the ever shorter list of fairgrounds that can accomodate us might not want.

This additional layer of security would have to manned 24 hours a day while the rally was in session - a task I would not be eager to add to the list.

Day passes remain a difficult nut to crack, primarily because it's essentially an invitation to the outside world into a place that several thousand folks have set up as their home for a few days.

535is said:

I know how big club events can run and I do not see day passes for your rallies as insurmountable or undesirable. I would have bought two ...

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It is much easier to lock your stuff up in a car than with a bike.
When I go to Elkhart Lake, I lock everything on my bike and it is a big pain. Usually, we hope somebody drives a car so we can just throw everything in there.
Segregating the camping would mean more expenses, cutting into anything we might make on day passes.
There are more people and more money associated with the car clubs you mention.

Rapid_Roy said:

It is much easier to lock your stuff up in a car than with a bike.
When I go to Elkhart Lake, I lock everything on my bike and it is a big pain.

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While I usually leave the key in it where it's parked - and my saddle bags have never locked. In fairness, I have hardly ever been there as a fan (OK; maybe once, in 1993). I find the Competition Paddock and 'hot areas' where I work - and leave the bike - to be quite safe.

Usually, we hope somebody drives a car so we can just throw everything in there.

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Except then you'll give them a load of crap about trailering their bike to the event - won't you?

Segregating the camping would mean more expenses, cutting into anything we might make on day passes.

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Sure. But you won't know how the final balance works out until you try it, will you?

There are more people and more money associated with the car clubs you mention.

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Again, maybe. While BMW CCA is around 60,000 members, Oktoberfest attendance is usually right around 1,000 - compared to nearly 8,000 for the International Rally this year. And you might be surprised to learn that I have the same amount invested in my ('87) 535is as I do in my ('78) R100RS. I am willing to spend about the same amount to play with them* with their respective clubs. So, if 'MOA is to offer me the same level of enjoyment as 'CCA (or the even more loosely organized MyE28.com cyber-/realtime-group), I will be looking for similar accommodations. I don't see how making available the premier event of the year to at least interested members like me (for the first time) is a bad thing. 'CCA did not always have O'Fest day passes, but I think their experience has been positive and should be illustrative. Even if it comes out dead even financially, the hope and expectation you should have is that the experience is so positive that your 'day trippers' will be back for the full event next time. That's one way we fill up our driver schools and it's the same principle upon which drug dealers sometimes rely: Give 'em a cheap sample, get 'em hooked, and you know they'll be back.


* Sorry, Iron Butt and Beemer Lifestyle folks; if I go 1000 miles in a day or plan to go over 100 mph on a race track or drive a bunch of mountain twisties at any serious speed, I want a roof over my head. It will still be Bavarian and painted Alpinweiss, though ....

535is said:

While I usually leave the key in it where it's parked - and my saddle bags have never locked. In fairness, I have hardly ever been there as a fan (OK; maybe once, in 1993). I find the Competition Paddock and 'hot areas' where I work - and leave the bike - to be quite safe.

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Trust me, nothing would be safe outside the paddock area. I have been in both for public, and more private events.

535is said:

Except then you'll give them a load of crap about trailering their bike to the event - won't you?

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No. Some of my friends actually have just cars , as unbelievable as that may seem.

535is said:

Sure. But you won't know how the final balance works out until you try it, will you?

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Not if the Rally is supposed to be a fund raiser event. I am not really sure what it is to be fair, I just have fun.

535is said:

Again, maybe. While BMW CCA is around 60,000 members, Oktoberfest attendance is usually right around 1,000 - compared to nearly 8,000 for the International Rally this year. And you might be surprised to learn that I have the same amount invested in my ('87) 535is as I do in my ('78) R100RS.

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I am. You spend way too much on your bike (i.e. more than me).

The logistics of planning day passes for this event are beyond me.
Maybe they are not beyond somebody else. All we need is for a volunteer to ramrod this through. *Roy takes one step back*
I pretty much agree with Sue it's a party for us, but if someone can implement it and nothing gets stolen, I will be happy.

Oh my...

I have to say I am a bit saddened by some of the responses I read in response to the origin post. The only, non-insulting response was along the lines of: day passes would be a logistical nightmare. This, when viewed in the big picture context, is undeniably true and, for lack of better words:valid. As for those of you who responded with something akin to:

I left my GPS on my bike and it was still there...etc
I wouldn't want "day" people wandering around...
Fine, stay home...etc
And the bountiful similar insulting dribble...

SHAME ON YOU! SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!

What contradictory nonsense some of you spewed. One person pointed out that it was a time to hang out with 8000 of your friends... With "friends" that assume your lack of ability/desire/etc to pay $35 a head for entrance makes you either a criminal (thief), or somehow beneath(less than) them, why on gods green earth would you want to hang out with them in mass?!?

I am stunned, amazed and ashamed that I have just witnessed such small minded, elitist behavior. I sincerely hope that when the time comes that I will be able to afford to attend one of these rallies those of you with such snitty, unwelcoming comments will leave that attitude at home, because if I crank out $35 a head I will be quite pissed to find this BS in person.

To those of you who made thoughtful comments in support and/or opposition to the subject of this thread: thank you. You are the reason I joined this group and I look forward to meeting you one day in person!

ducatimom said:

And the bountiful similar insulting dribble...

SHAME ON YOU! SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!

What contradictory nonsense some of you spewed. One person pointed out that it was a time to hang out with 8000 of your friends... With "friends" that assume your lack of ability/desire/etc to pay $35 a head for entrance makes you either a criminal (thief), or somehow beneath(less than) them, why on gods green earth would you want to hang out with them in mass?!?

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Things I learned as a teenager. I was an iceman when in High school selling and delivering ice to campers, fishermen and beer drinkers. The smallest quantity of ice we sold was a 25 # block (actually it weighed 30# because it was illegal to sell less than 25# if calling it a 25# block) for 25 cents. It absolutely amazed me that supposedly intelligent adults would expect me to split a block in half and pay 12 1/2 cents . I would charge 13 cents and they would argue with me about the half cent overcharge!!! My boss finally told me to not sell less than 25# for less than a quarter. I wonder if any of those complainers are around today to see how much one has to pay for a "bag" of ice of unknown quantity!
The discussion on this thread amazes me today and I wonder what happens when some of these same people go to an NBA game, music concert, broadway play or movie and ask for tickets to only the first half of the game or movie.
If you want something cheap or free and live within 100 miles of East Lansing, Michigan, please come to the Annual Folk Music Festival August 10-12. It is three days of fantastic folk music of every genre. Free parking in MSU student parking lots and free shuttle buses to the festival. You can go every day or only one day or two days and there is no charge at all. Ethnic food is available at reasonable cost. Check it out!!

http://greatlakesfolkfest.net/What'sNew/

Interesting, it has never occured to me that a BMW motorcycle owner would be unable to attend the rally because they can not afford the entrance fee. Maybe you can save up by skipping one days riding during the rest of the season. 3 tanks of gas just about cover the admission.
Or you can create a blog, add a pay pal button and people will donate your admission.
Or maybe the rally just isn't for everyone.

My grandpa used to say:

"I'd stand on my head and spit nickels, but someone would complain they weren't dimes."

I never got that joke as a kid, I had to grow up, and now it makes perfect sense.

Fritzc said:

The discussion on this thread amazes me today and I wonder what happens when some of these same people go to an NBA game, music concert, broadway play or movie and ask for tickets to only the first half of the game or movie.

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They probably don't go to those events either.

ducatimom said:

I have to say I am a bit saddened by some of the responses I read in response to the origin post. The only, non-insulting response was along the lines of: day passes would be a logistical nightmare. This, when viewed in the big picture context, is undeniably true and, for lack of better words:valid. As for those of you who responded with something akin to:

I left my GPS on my bike and it was still there...etc
I wouldn't want "day" people wandering around...
Fine, stay home...etc
And the bountiful similar insulting dribble...

SHAME ON YOU! SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!

What contradictory nonsense some of you spewed. One person pointed out that it was a time to hang out with 8000 of your friends... With "friends" that assume your lack of ability/desire/etc to pay $35 a head for entrance makes you either a criminal (thief), or somehow beneath(less than) them, why on gods green earth would you want to hang out with them in mass?!?

I am stunned, amazed and ashamed that I have just witnessed such small minded, elitist behavior. I sincerely hope that when the time comes that I will be able to afford to attend one of these rallies those of you with such snitty, unwelcoming comments will leave that attitude at home, because if I crank out $35 a head I will be quite pissed to find this BS in person.

To those of you who made thoughtful comments in support and/or opposition to the subject of this thread: thank you. You are the reason I joined this group and I look forward to meeting you one day in person!

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‘Interesting ‘rant for a second post. I must admit I found your succinct first post more informative.

Thread such as this do not have a professor or host to moderate the class discussion. The result is they wander off and back on to topic as the thread progresses.

“…the bountiful similar insulting dribble...” perceived by you is, for the most part an attempt to voice a view from their perspective.

“SHAME ON YOU! SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!” will be viewed as mindless personal drivel by some others will recognize it as a statement of your perspective.

As these kinds of threads go it has been fairly reasonable in my perspective. It wandered of topic at times then came back. It demonstrates the emotional complexity of the issue that the BoD and Rally Chairs past and future are confronted with.

Taking us off topic for a moment, what is your major or goal in returning to college?

Good luck with school and welcome to the forum! I look forward to your third post.

ducatimom said:

I have to say I am a bit saddened by some of the responses I read in response to the origin post. The only, non-insulting response was along the lines of: day passes would be a logistical nightmare. This, when viewed in the big picture context, is undeniably true and, for lack of better words:valid. As for those of you who responded with something akin to:

I left my GPS on my bike and it was still there...etc
I wouldn't want "day" people wandering around...
Fine, stay home...etc
And the bountiful similar insulting dribble...

SHAME ON YOU! SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!

What contradictory nonsense some of you spewed. One person pointed out that it was a time to hang out with 8000 of your friends... With "friends" that assume your lack of ability/desire/etc to pay $35 a head for entrance makes you either a criminal (thief), or somehow beneath(less than) them, why on gods green earth would you want to hang out with them in mass?!?

I am stunned, amazed and ashamed that I have just witnessed such small minded, elitist behavior. I sincerely hope that when the time comes that I will be able to afford to attend one of these rallies those of you with such snitty, unwelcoming comments will leave that attitude at home, because if I crank out $35 a head I will be quite pissed to find this BS in person.

To those of you who made thoughtful comments in support and/or opposition to the subject of this thread: thank you. You are the reason I joined this group and I look forward to meeting you one day in person!

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Either none of those people were at the Nat'l, or they are a lot nicer in person. Welcome to the forum. Try not to judge people by their posts here. For example, when people meet me in person, they think I am sane and rational. Then they read what I write here.

M1ka said:

Taking us off topic for a moment, what is your major or goal in returning to college?

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Eh, a bunch of things really. I was married the first time really young and thought I had so much time to get around to it when I felt like it. Then I had my kids and time just did not seem conductive to the idea.

I spent quite a few years working in various jobs which did not require college to find that no matter what flavor the industry had, the same issues cropped up. If I was helpful: it implied an opinion of their incompetency, if I did my job really well: it implied that I was after my superior's title, if I didn't poo on the person everyone else pooed on: I was anti-social... I guess the final flame under my butt to just GO to college was the desire to hopefully educate myself out of the inevitable soap operas, or at least into a bit more "high brow" versions. I guess I was just tired of banging my head on the same nonsensical walls that kept popping up.

Now the kids are old enough to not require constant hands on parenting and they are pretty into the routine now. I had been working towards a degree in Forensic Science-Biology, but have just switched to dual degrees in Psychology and Criminal Justice.

Long story short, I want to be really good at something that in some little way makes the world a bit better...

Rapid_Roy said:

Either none of those people were at the Nat'l, or they are a lot nicer in person. Welcome to the forum. Try not to judge people by their posts here. For example, when people meet me in person, they think I am sane and rational. Then they read what I write here.

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Thank you! I hope to come to one of the rallies, but I have no idea how I will be perceived in person... Half the time people find me friendly, helpful and a bit odd... But the other half seem to not know how to take me... Eh. I figure that the BMW crew is most likely an eclectic group, so there are probably a hundred other freaks just like me out there...

ducatimom said:

Thank you! I hope to come to one of the rallies, but I have no idea how I will be perceived in person... Half the time people find me friendly, helpful and a bit odd... But the other half seem to not know how to take me... Eh. I figure that the BMW crew is most likely an eclectic group, so there are probably a hundred other freaks just like me out there...

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I think you'll fit in just fine.

Everybody is someone else's weirdo.

KBasa said:

Everybody is someone else's weirdo.

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This is why you are the top sausage oh winged wonder.

Thanks for the response ducatimom, again wellcome to the fun.

ducatimom said:

Thank you! I hope to come to one of the rallies, but I have no idea how I will be perceived in person... Half the time people find me friendly, helpful and a bit odd... ...

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You just described most of the people at the Nat'l.
Especially the group I camped with.

ahpd1992 said:

Came in from NW Illinois a whole 120miles from the rally. This is the 1st BMW rally I attended. I attempted in the mid 90's to attend the Chicago Area BMWOA rally in Galena, Il and was so turned off by the attitude of the staff runnning the show I swore Id had it w/ rally's. Well its over 10 yrs later, Id so I figure Im back w/ BMW, Il go to the National seeing as its so close.

Well I gues I just dont get it, I have to pay for a camp site Im not going to use, full weekend passes only, no daily passes (what if I lived in West Bend, WI?) but I say to myself where else am I going to find all of these BMW oriented vendors right? I pay $70 for the wife and I, so I can buy lunch and walk around for 3 hours looking at stuff to buy. Im sure the vendors paid to be there, now why exactly did I have to pay all that money to come in? I just got back an hour ago, I loved to see so many BMW's in one place, but I wasted $70 and it wont happen again.

As I said this is not going to be popular, but let me point out some of the bigger turn offs for me.

- No daily passes for the locals. Being close to or near the host sight should have some advantage, but I guess not.

- Camping sucks, just my opinion, but Im not making you pay for my hotel room, why am I paying for a campsite Im not using

-Liability waivers! Let me tell you the next time I see a Harley bashing thread I will point out that I have never signed a waiver at a poker run. I dont see a half million waivers being passed out at the Sturgis Rally

Now I know everyone is all high about the rally, and I dont know where its going to be next year, but you probably arent goin to see me, as I see in ten years nothing has changed

Tom

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First, I've been to a rally, but want to try in 08, now that we both ride Beemers.

Second, I dont think you are "cheap", I be REALLY PO'd to have to buy a camping spot I dont want, if I read your post correct.

The liability wavers are ok by me, especially in this society, albeit totally wierd. I've never signed one at any other event.

M1ka said:

ÔÇÿInteresting ÔÇÿrant for a second post. I must admit I found your succinct first post more informative.

Thread such as this do not have a professor or host to moderate the class discussion. The result is they wander off and back on to topic as the thread progresses.

the bountiful similar insulting dribble... perceived by you is, for the most part an attempt to voice a view from their perspective.

ÔÇ£SHAME ON YOU! SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!ÔÇØ will be viewed as mindless personal drivel by some others will recognize it as a statement of your perspective.

As these kinds of threads go it has been fairly reasonable in my perspective. It wandered of topic at times then came back. It demonstrates the emotional complexity of the issue that the BoD and Rally Chairs past and future are confronted with.

Taking us off topic for a moment, what is your major or goal in returning to college?

Good luck with school and welcome to the forum! I look forward to your third post.

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Ducatimom's post is pretty much what I was thinking after reading all these posts after I pretty much agreed with the original post here. My position was much different from most of the attendees that I was just local and just wanted jump in see whats what and get out. What gets me about some of these snive posts about "if you own a BMW you should have enough money to get in the door" or the "I don't want all the criminals that can't afford $35 to get in" is the perception of a outsider looking in. I am very fortunate that I have the ability to make a very good wage and can afford things such as leisure time toys. But I certainly don't forget where I came from and will never have this type of preconceived opinion of the general public. It is a shame that some of you have this opinion. It seems that change is something that is not welcome at these rallies unless somewhere I missed the post that stated "maybe we can look into it" or something to that effect. I guess I was a little turned off by going to the rally but I am more turned off by the responses here in this post.

Monches rider said:

Ducatimom's post is pretty much what I was thinking after reading all these posts after I pretty much agreed with the original post here. My position was much different from most of the attendees that I was just local and just wanted jump in see whats what and get out. What gets me about some of these snive posts about "if you own a BMW you should have enough money to get in the door" or the "I don't want all the criminals that can't afford $35 to get in" is the perception of a outsider looking in. I am very fortunate that I have the ability to make a very good wage and can afford things such as leisure time toys. But I certainly don't forget where I came from and will never have this type of preconceived opinion of the general public. It is a shame that some of you have this opinion. It seems that change is something that is not welcome at these rallies unless somewhere I missed the post that stated "maybe we can look into it" or something to that effect. I guess I was a little turned off by going to the rally but I am more turned off by the responses here in this post.

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The thing is, that everyone who is a club officer or board member or rally organizer or worker is just like you and me: a club member. You and every single person reading this has the ability to directly affect the way things are done by getting involved. There is no "them", there is only "us". Get involved and take on some of the work and you can shape policy and rules. Simple as that.