The High Cost of FD Failures

[redclfco]

A post that makes sense

This FD issue has been quite well documented over a good period of time. I find it odd that some attribute the chorous to the fact that forums allow weak points to be discussed and somehow projected to the forefront. Without an unbiased discussion, manufactures could brush a poor service history under the table, rationalize that paying individual warranty claims is cheaper than fixing a situation. One can claim, we stand by our product!!! Could it be that has been BMW's game plan up to this point.

The forum (throughout the web) discussion exists because FDs fail at a higher rate than one would expect. Why do we hear no constant clamoring about major engine failures ? The engine service history lives up to customer's expectations!

I love my BMWs, but have a hard time understanding how people can spend $20K and then rationalize how one should not be surprised if a major drive component has a premature failure. No rant here, just a thought.

I'm sure that BMW engineers know exactly what is happening to the the new FDs. Of course, they must recognize customer abuse in using improper lubricants, or experimenting with unknown potions or shops doing substandard repair work on in service units.
I would assume that engineering and beancounting see the issue from different angles.

Motard

Motard, you make sense here. Sure, I worry that someday I may hear unusual sounds and find out the go has gone out of my GS, but as like with a post from Paul G about Vonie and her riding exploits on this forum, as long as I have a cell phone, I'll most likely survive and the bike will most likely survive a final drive failure. I won't lose a race, I won't lose face , Ill just pick up the pieces and move on.

I think hearing from everyone on their personal experience, either good or bad is important, but as in life, good news does not make the news; only the bad, and it leaves a bad taste for BMW motorcycles in everyones mouth when all you hear or read on this forum is doomsday stuff. I try to equal the playing field and expect to get beat up for it.

I too wish BMW would be more up front about this issue, and put out some real numbers as I am sure all riders wish their makers would be more up front I guess my question remains unanswered. Are these failures on 06/07s or do they date themselves back to the same design in 03,04, 05s or before? Has somthing changed, and when?

Thanks Motard, good post!

Red

 

[SGTBORING]

From other thread

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are following the IBA you know that BMWs are experiencing final drive failure in droves.

I spoke with my BMW service manager today and he states "There is no problem with normal use and loads. Its that those guys are weighing the bikes down past lbs limits and some are pulling trailers at high speeds and long distances."

What do you think?

 

[redclfco]

Re read your post

Is it possible that there's a design flaw that should be addressed?

Sometimes at work I really have to work and today's one of those days. After taking time re-reading yours and others posts I agree. I would like to think the latest FD failures is a flaw that could be fixed, and everybody out there with the flaw could march back to where they bought em and get them fixed. That's sounds like a good deal to me.

The number of FD failures should be looked at as a design flaw. I agree that the iorn butt failures may draw attention to that fact.

BMW should at least throw some facts on the table for the consumer to review.

Cause right now, on this table (the forum) the facts are few. It's just sort of a confusing for everyone, some saying "ALL BMWs are subject to this, don't buy em"
And others saying" All Bikes need repair sweep it under the table"

Meanwhile me and a million others are saying I don't buy either one of those blanket statements. I want facts on the table before I decide. It's that simple nothing to pop a cork at anyone over, surely not.

I'm going to get out of this office and go ride my bike.

Red

 

[hlothery]

I must be jinxed. It seems my whole life has been one stupid purchase after another.

I owned a pickup truck when studies showed that a side impact would cause the gas tank to explode. I must not have been struck hard enough.

I owned a CJ5 when everyone kept saying how they all rolled over. I must not have driven fast enough.

I owned a HD twin cam and was told "a lot" of them had cam bearing failures. After 40,000 miles, I couldn't get mine to give up.

Now I have an 05 r12rt and am reading how my final drive will fail because 3 bikes on the IB07 have had failures.

Then again, maybe I'm simply ignoring the facts.

And it makes me wonder.....if I had never read this thread, would my FD never fail?

 

[roostershooter]

Jeez Got a bunch of rocket scientist here don't we ..........

BMW has sold about (notice about) a hundred thousand bikes a year,,, Some with belt drive I know but allot with drive shafts....... So its safe to say close to five hundred thousand in the last five years..... 4% of that is twenty thousand,,,
Anybody who thinks 20,000 FD have broke in the last 5 years just isn't right in the head..........
The 4% came from either '05's or '06's CCR... That was what they estimated the failure to be........

There is so much dis-information on the net

And one of the stupidest things I ever heard was ' ya can't run over a rock with a HD belt drive ' Well thats bullshit.......I ran a stick through my belt in July '86 on a run from N.C. to Ill. in the middle of Tenn. left the belt on for the trip back to N.C. and waited for payday to fix it....Pain in the ass, gotta pull primary ( you know clutch) shock, rear axle,,,, real pain.....

Just one question before I quit this forum again for a few months,,,,

Is the continual whining about parts on your bike that haven't broke yet a sexual thing?????? I mean is it orgasmic to worry about something that hasn't broke???????? Just a little curious is all........Later, much later..............Pete

Don't let the door hit you in the ass!!

 

[BOKRIJDER]

Hard numbers

Red,

The only party with hard data would be BMW. They would know exactly how many warranty failures have occured and the failure by model figures over any stated time frame. Looking at bearing, by part number, sales, they could determine a reasonable failure estimate on out of warranty units. I wouldn't count on seeing those numbers, nor would I expect to.
In light of this, what you are seeing here, on other forums, talking with co-riders, and talking with your dealer is about as close as you will come to obtaining numbers, suspect as they may be.
Interesting isn't it, comparing SgtBoring's dealer's response to the earlier noted dealer in Maine's response.

Personally, I'd be more peeved at a malfunctioning wonder key than a failed final drive. A mechanical failure, though disappointing, I can deal with -- A bike totally disabled due to a malfunctioning factory gadget would truly set me into a roadside rant. The old 1150GS is going to be around for some time.

Motard

 

[redclfco]

The highest Cost of FD Failure

Red,

The only party with hard data would be BMW. They would know exactly how many warranty failures have occured and the failure by model figures over any stated time frame. Looking at bearing, by part number, sales, they could determine a reasonable failure estimate on out of warranty units. I wouldn't count on seeing those numbers, nor would I expect to.
In light of this, what you are seeing here, on other forums, talking with co-riders, and talking with your dealer is about as close as you will come to obtaining numbers, suspect as they may be.
Interesting isn't it, comparing SgtBoring's dealer's response to the earlier noted dealer in Maine's response.

Personally, I'd be more peeved at a malfunctioning wonder key than a failed final drive. A mechanical failure, though disappointing, I can deal with -- A bike totally disabled due to a malfunctioning factory gadget would truly set me into a roadside rant. The old 1150GS is going to be around for some time.

Motard

I discovered the highest cost of FD Failure last night.

I just got back to the office from an "essential" ride to get a printer cartridge so I could get out the last invoices for the day. All the way to Target, I spoke to the ol GS about FD failure, and she insisted she was not a "FD Hussy" and would never fail me. I believe her. We are on our way next weekend to the Dells rally, and you know, I don't doubt her word...

Last night my son and I rode up to see the failed bridge in Minneapolis to see how there doing getting out all the cars and stuff out of the Mississippi. I thought about the FD failure a bit when we finally hit the interstate (35W) and I had to romp on it to merge/stay ahead of the maniac in a Mac truck intent on taking me and my 13 yr old son down..He missed, but it put a damper on my day having to think no matter if I wanted to or not was I crazy for risking my son on this bike knowing it's going to fail any moment?

And we got there, and I saw his face reflected in the mirror and the blue gas tank of the GS as we watched the tugs maneuvering in the water, I saw him in that light in that moment and realized that this bike was doing everything I wanted from her at this moment, and that this moment was priceless. and realized we were no more safe or unsafe than I was a week ago before the FD failure stuff started up, and the fact is, we had a better chance of the Mac truck mowing us under than we will ever have getting ko'd by a failed final drive.

The highest cost is our peace of mind imagined or real. Is the terror alert a standard green or a flaming orange? Does my lighter represent a threat on an airliner now anymore than two months ago? Your call as an individual.

I will keep my bike in the best shape possible, and ride it like a sane individual not like a madman trying to race the clock bar none.

The true loss is what riding ANY bike represents; FREEDOM. If you don't buy a bike or sell your bike because you are afraid of FD failure, and you have nothing to stand on in terms of knowing if it's true or it's nothing then they GOT you. Your freedom you had or dreamed about for that bike is gone. When the security you thought you were riding leaves you, then yes, go ahead and sell the bike it's over for you. This is my second BMW, and I bought it for the security and freedom the first one brought to me. My GS is a 2005. It's now 2007, and she is going strong with ALOT of miles.

Life is short, and I will be damned if I'm going to ruin any more minutes in this precious life that only goes around once thinking about FD failure. It sucks, and personally I'm done contemplating the sky and when the damn thing is going to fall; I will just have to leave that up to the experts. Until I hear something more concrete than this chatter on the forum, I'm going to go ride my BMW GS and enjoy it for what I bought it. Care to join me?

!

Red

 

[RGVILLA]

yeah, I'll join you, I rode my bike today and the final drive didn't fail. whew!

 

[henzilla]

walked into the garage with three older FD's and two new styles...thanked them all for passing the drive test...and am taking a " high probability" unit..the GS to Taos next week...I'll join you in NOT worrying...

 

[dlearl476]

So what are you going to buy that never has a mechanical failure?

To be perfectly honest, I just took my '99 Triumph Sprint off the market. I figure I can store and maintain it for ten years for the price of one FD replacement. In five to ten years I MIGHT have time to tour again, and add to the 36,000 completely trouble free miles I've put on it so far.

 

[Rinty]

FD failures

That Sprint ST is one sweet unit. If I was buying a bike tomorrow, I'd have a tough time deciding between that and a 1200 ST.

Rinty

 

[BUDDINGGEEZER]

Iron Butt Failures

I took the figures from the the Homepage on this web site.

Out of 97 total bikes 40 were BMW, 14 Yamaha FJR 1300, 25 Hondas.
BMW took 4 out of top 5.

DNF percentages of these brands most represented total
BMW 33%
Yamaha 21%
Honda 40%

Out of the BMWs that DNF because of final drive failure 4 (what I have gleaned from this discussion) or 10% of the total BMWs entered.

Draw your own conclusions.

Ralph Sims

My daddy says " You can hear anything but money rattlin' and meat a fryin'.

 

[PGlaves]

I took the figures from the the Homepage on this web site.

Out of 97 total bikes 40 were BMW, 14 Yamaha FJR 1300, 25 Hondas.
BMW took 4 out of top 5.

DNF percentages of these brands most represented total
BMW 33%
Yamaha 21%
Honda 40%

Out of the BMWs that DNF because of final drive failure 4 (what I have gleaned from this discussion) or 10% of the total BMWs entered.

Draw your own conclusions.

Ralph Sims

My daddy says " You can hear anything but money rattlin' and meat a fryin'.

Actually, 2 final drives failed - Glenn Pancoast's and Rob Nye's. Both were new style R1200GS drives. Yes, I know Rob was on an RTP but he told me to note that it was a GS drive. None of the older ball bearing type drives failed.

Two is too many, but let's keep things straight. All other reports of final drive failures resulted from what Bob Higdon has described as the "fog of war."

 

[USERNAME]

just because there is a failure does not mean its a "design" flaw maybe its a mechanical issue, if I was a bearing I wouldn't be very happy in that application. grab a bearing catalog and check out bearing life section, high infant mortality rates.

I wonder what the #'s look like for failures?

good point on infant mortality hodag. bearings are components that fail in an exponential fashion. much has been written on the topic, and the reliability engineers in our midst can offer more than i can on this topic, but i'll take a stab.

the failure behavior for a population of bearings that are manufactured within specification and operated within specification should look something like this:

note that the observed failure rate is what we will see as the owners of the bikes. a bunch will fail early, and then for a long period of time, the bearings will fail at a very low rate. then as the population ages, they will start failing in higher numbers again. this is common for components that suffer "wear out" failures.

now, how the BMW engineers spec the reliability of these bearings will strongly determine the tests that are performed to verify that reliability, and those test will influence the various coefficients that need to be plugged into the Weibull equation, namely Beta. Beta describes *how* the population tends to fail under a prescribed operating condition. depending on the abuse tests that are run, it is possible to derive different betas with which to predict future survival/failure rates. this is very tricky stuff. all it takes is one bean counter cutting the sample size alloted to the reliability engineer to make an experiment very low-confidence because the sample size is too small.

what interests me is that it often seems like the bearing failure on these bikes is a secondary failure. it seems like for some folks (i've seen this over on advrider.com too) that that seal fails, the fluid escapes, then of course the bearing fails. (duh, right?)

so we might be scrutinizing the bearings falsely - it might be that the seal is the tricky part. as a guy who has designed both bearings and seals in my career, i would choose the bearing problem every single time over the seal problem. seals are hard to do well, and things like weird deflections and temperature changes make them even harder. part of me wonders if the IBR doesn't create a thermal cycling event for the bikes - they get ridden, then parked for a few minutes. rider goes and takes a photo, and comes back. let's say it's cold and rainy and the bike is on the side stand. cold rain falls all over the right side of the bike and cools it down quickly. bam, rider gets back on and heats it up again. rider does this every 4 hours, for 10 solid days.

hmmm. this is how i might design an abuse test for this bike.

 

[johnpainter]

FD failures

Well......now I am really confused. I joined BMW MOA without first having bought a BMW, and it did not take me long to realize that Beemer riders are my kind of people. After reading the ON mag and meeting with local Beemer clubs I finally convinced my wife I had to sell the stodgy '05 Goldwing and get an R1200GS in order to get back to my old off-road one-up roots with guys who like to move down the road. No more of this Goldwinger boredom!

Now I am having second thoughts. One reason I sold the Wing (step one) was that Honda refused to acknowledge a design defect of weak front suspension and steering head bearings creating front end wobble and tire cupping in brand new bikes. After spending nearly $500 for an aftermarket superbrace and new tapered steering head bearings, plus dealer install, to fix the wing, I find that BMW is in the same state of denial with the FD. Not the way to treat your loyal subjects. So now what. Can I get an extended warranty if I buy a new or nearly new R1200 GS that will cover the bearing FD problem? Or do I just ride my KLR 650 - wishing it had 30 more hp, a sixth gear, and ABS? There's nothing else out there.

 

[widebmw]

Well......now I am really confused. I joined BMW MOA without first having bought a BMW, and it did not take me long to realize that Beemer riders are my kind of people. After reading the ON mag and meeting with local Beemer clubs I finally convinced my wife I had to sell the stodgy '05 Goldwing and get an R1200GS in order to get back to my old off-road one-up roots with guys who like to move down the road. No more of this Goldwinger boredom!

Now I am having second thoughts. One reason I sold the Wing (step one) was that Honda refused to acknowledge a design defect of weak front suspension and steering head bearings creating front end wobble and tire cupping in brand new bikes. After spending nearly $500 for an aftermarket superbrace and new tapered steering head bearings, plus dealer install, to fix the wing, I find that BMW is in the same state of denial with the FD. Not the way to treat your loyal subjects. So now what. Can I get an extended warranty if I buy a new or nearly new R1200 GS that will cover the bearing FD problem? Or do I just ride my KLR 650 - wishing it had 30 more hp, a sixth gear, and ABS? There's nothing else out there.

Get thee an Airhead

 

[globalrider]

DNF percentages of these brands most represented total
BMW 33%
Yamaha 21%
Honda 40%

What were the reasons for the DNFs. DNF can mean a lot of things; mechanical failure, crashes, dropped out....

 

[Mr. Frank]

I believe that Paul has revised the number of FD failures up to four on another thread. That was out of eight 1200GS type final drives.

 

[PGlaves]

Yes - 4 R1200GS drives. I can't keep track of which of the four or five threads I've posted this to.

 

[OUTBACKUFO]

Here as of today and my latest FD falure... the graph with green DOTs to show where they all failed... he first one is at 89K-90K miles for compairison to positioning the others the quickest on failed in was 6K.. the 89K one was a massive quick bearing failure not much warring... really bad grinding vibs in the pegs... bearing caused the seal to blow.. the 6K one the seal leaked a touch but most like all the others the grinding/ catch and go vibs came in the pegs first then the seal blow.. today at 14K on the fourth main bearing went very quickly... have had ver little bit of peg vibs and 1/16 of play in the rear wheel but now seeping of leaking from the seal... within 10 miles it got really bad grinding vibs... stopped and it just started to drip very quickly out...