The High Cost of FD Failures

[redclfco]

Well......now I am really confused. I joined BMW MOA without first having bought a BMW, and it did not take me long to realize that Beemer riders are my kind of people. After reading the ON mag and meeting with local Beemer clubs I finally convinced my wife I had to sell the stodgy '05 Goldwing and get an R1200GS in order to get back to my old off-road one-up roots with guys who like to move down the road. No more of this Goldwinger boredom!

Now I am having second thoughts. One reason I sold the Wing (step one) was that Honda refused to acknowledge a design defect of weak front suspension and steering head bearings creating front end wobble and tire cupping in brand new bikes. After spending nearly $500 for an aftermarket superbrace and new tapered steering head bearings, plus dealer install, to fix the wing, I find that BMW is in the same state of denial with the FD. Not the way to treat your loyal subjects. So now what. Can I get an extended warranty if I buy a new or nearly new R1200 GS that will cover the bearing FD problem? Or do I just ride my KLR 650 - wishing it had 30 more hp, a sixth gear, and ABS? There's nothing else out there.

Two weeks ago there was 20 posts about Gillette to ZERO posts about FD failure. The fact that the IB riders had failures, and those whos bikes have broken that responded to this forum does NOT indicate BMW is blowing this off, and does NOT indicate the GS specific has a major event happening. the jury is still out here. The high traffic on this site is just that; high traffic and is not nor should be considered as anything factual when it comes to an overall industry design failure.

I feel real sorrow for those who have had FD failures, even mutiple failures, and I'm not bashing those who have responded, however I respectfully submit that all this talk is just that talk when it comes to the ZILLIONS of hexheads that have been sold, and the reports of FD on this forum; it does not represent EITHER BMW's lack of response, none of us know the inside scoop here, were just guessing, nor does in represent a pinpoint issue with FD failures, the failures reported have multiple causes including user error involving synthetic oil. Time and usage and a billion other factors and base causes.

As with many, I wait for more conclusive evidence before I pull my GS out in the driveway and burn it in effigy! I suggest you wait to condem BMW and hex heads until somhting more concrete comes down from a more reputable source! When it does, I'm sure people like Mr. Glaves will be the first to post on this forum; THEN I might be able to have an informed opinion.

Red

 

[screamineagle]

FD failure

Well, I don't think you'll find folks that have had trouble-free final drives posting over and over that their final drives have not failed.

Well I will post that I have had no final drive failure. I had an 04 RT which I bought new and traded it in Feb of this year because I wanted cruise control and some other goodies that come with the new RTs. My 04 had nearly 50,000 miles which I don't consider alot, but I had no FD problem or any other problem.

Don't take life so serious. Its a machine, it is going to fail sooner or later they all do. What you need to know is the percentages. Because of the internet we hear ALL the bad stories but we need to know how they stack up to the total.

Be happy, don't worry.

 

[dlearl476]

Well, I don't think you'll find folks that have had trouble-free final drives posting over and over that their final drives have not failed.

No, the folks that have had trouble-free final drives post over and over that it's all an illusion and folks that have had final drive failures are just being hysterical.

It's commonly refered to as "Whistling past the graveyard".

 

[redclfco]

No, the folks that have had trouble-free final drives post over and over that it's all an illusion and folks that have had final drive failures are just being hysterical.

It's commonly refered to as "Whistling past the graveyard".

Graveyard is where we all end up, as well as BMWs but the last two weeks of web chatter hasn't proven we all will expire due to FD failure. That's here say and alarmist way to go through life. Your scaring the weak of heart with that attitude.

Karmac says"...someone must own stock in ANOTHER motorcycle company..."

 

[beemerdons]

The issue is not being scared; the subject matter is "High Cost of BMW FD Failures"!!

When my R1100GS final drive failed down in Mexico at 45,000 miles I was not scared in the least. When I was in the US Army from 1968-1974 is when I was scared; like all of us GI's at the time, ha-ha! But what I did not want to deal with 900 miles south of the border was a major mechanical failure while I was on a fixed time vacation. Especially on a high dollar machine that I had never suspected previously of having an Achilles Heel; a built in defect from the factory.

The Mexico trip ended well thanks to the generosity of strangers that helped get my BMW and I back to Phoenix. I just had to shell out $2,200 to have a new final drive installed on my GS. But here is where "High Cost of BMW FD Failures" now kicked in: instead of adding a BMW K1200GT to my collection of bikes, I purchased a Yamaha FJR1300 instead. Why? Because I did not want my next trip to Acapulco, Guerrero to be on a machine that has a history of inherent problems.

A few years passed and I wanted another BMW, which is natural since I have been riding them continuously since March of 1969. So I bought Ingrid my R1150RT and I have 30,000 miles on my schones Fraulein. Yet the last three Iron Butt Rallies have really eroded my trust in the mechanical reliability of BMW's, there simply should have not been so many catastrophic failures of BMW's in this event.

Next year when I ride the Southern California Motorcycle Association Four Corners Rally, my route will be 13,000 miles over 21 days (up into Canada and down into Mexico), I will not be on the new BMW R1200RT that I had originally intended to purchase for this adventure. Instead I will be mounted on a new Kawasaki Concours 1400ABS. Why? Because I no longer trust BMW on long trips!

So the "High Cost of FD Failures" is motorcyclists that will no longer buy BMW until they can make the machines reliable again. There is no way that BMW motorcycle sales cannot suffer from this. BMWMOA and BMWRA also will suffer because there will be less new BMW riders entering the fold. These FD failures will not affect we seasoned veterans that have been riding the marque for 30 or 40 years; I will not sell off my GS or RT, neither will I give up my membership in either MOA or RA.

Besides riding with my local MOA Club AZ Beemers I also ride with the local sport bike club Fast Tour Rider Group. These gals and guys are almost half my 59 years of age and their choice of machines are Gixxers, Ducatis, Triumphs, FJR's, Ninjas and the other well known sportbike marques. If you think that they are not aware of BMW and BMW's known propensity for failure in the Iron Butt Rally you are severely kidding yourself. To the last person, they all have said they will not buy BMW because they "break down all of the time". BMW has turned into BSA!

 

[redclfco]

Running Scared and proud of it

Well, Beemer Don, since I own a 05 hex head, and I do read all the failure posts while setting here tightly gripping my chair arm rest, it scares me! I'm not a girly type man here, but this FD stuff makes me a bit alarmed. Glad to hear nothing scares you! A huge Thank you to you and all in the armed forces for risking your lives for us. And I mean that. I am humble to your input on real scares, but this FD stuff scares me; and others like me.

And from the other hex bike owners who waited their entire life to get the bike of their dreams, and to hear of these failure reports scares all of us to death! The hell with BMW image! So sorry, it's a big company, and I could give a rats ass about a temporary image problem! The "high cost to BMW” over this issue is their problem, not mine! My issue is my bike, and I am doing everything I can do to make sure it runs like it should. Because you know what? I can't afford to run out and buy a replacement new Kawasaki Concours 1400ABS. This is it. This is the whole enchlada for me. 1 dirt bike, 1 road bike, two kids bikes, lawnmower and a JD Gator. I don't get no mo toys in life! I'm fifty, and I am supposed to just wear them out. Right? Right?!! Best I can do is hope for no problem, or a problem under warranty the worst case I am going to allow is that I'm stopped at a light when the Final Drive thing goes BOOM! The majority of hex heads owned out there are owned by people like me, we all reached the goal of owning the ultimate bike, but we have a life, a wife, a kid, and we ride the most miles, (sadly) to and from work. What we bought was a bike that has done exactly what we ask of it, no problems, and if problems, we had solutions. I still believe I have that bike.

Recalls have happened before, the dire warning on the whizzy brakes...my bike went in, got a fix and I have yet to experience ANY problems, but then again I don't have the time away from family and work to go on three month adventures in Mexico and test the machine to the limits. Not a luxury I can afford! If there is a total hex head issue, let’s hope they recall before anyone gets hurt. Or warranty expires. I feel real bad for those moderate income guys like my self who have had FD failures out of their pocket. But it's my belief until I see facts that it is a MINORITY of Hex Heads outright failing with normal use and not been screwed around with to make them go better (synthetic oil, etc.). Anybody got facts to the contrary? Step up here with two figures: #1 Total hex heads sold. Period 2005-08. #2. Total hex heads FD failures and root causes. Give me these two figures, and I will run my own stats. And make an informed opinion. So far all I get is loud talk and bravado countering my questioning the hysteria surrounding this issue on this forum, telling me indirectly to shut up and that my skepticism should not be voiced. That's not the way to be in life.

So in the mean time I wait FOR A PERCENTAGE of failures to appear by a REPUTABLE SOURCE and so far, only a little factual data has came in with huge loads of "scare and run" posts that mean nothing to those of us who need real information to make an sound opinion here.

I called my dealer who I have bought four bikes from, and have had my bike evaluated, and got a clean bill of health. The dealer is watching the internal message board from BMW, and will let me know if and when anything pops worth passing on. That's our deal. Meanwhile, I ALWAYS ride with an AAA card, a cell phone and a credit card with a huge limit..Just in case. I always check the rear on center stand each time I ride looking for trouble..I ride scared, and don't plan on changing!

I read each post on this forum, and try to search through out all the alarmist caca for the tidbits of good information and continue to RUN SCARED. Glad you have nerves of steel and nothing bothers you, wish I was so tough.

Red

 

[beemerdons]

Dear Red: As a friend, if you are truly experiencing psychological "fear" I am sorry!

Dear Friend Red,

There was nothing in my post that should produce actual physical fear in you and if this did occur please forgive me! I was just recounting an event that happened six years ago when I was running between Guanajuato and San Miguel de Allende in Central Mexico at 120 km. It felt just like I had picked up a nail in my tire and I was able to safely get the bike down to a stop. At this point in time I have not heard of a single final drive failure that has killed or injured a BMW rider!

If your bike is indeed a 2002 then you don't own a Hexhead, you own an Oilhead. And I've not heard of any reports regarding final drive failures of the later Oilheads, but I've certainly have heard of final drive failures of the 2005 R1200 and newer Hexheads! So that you may know the models of BMW, please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_motorcycles and you can see how the 2005 R1200 (and newer) final drive differs from your 2002 Oilhead. My R1100GS was purchased in October of 2005 and it may have experience "teething" problems by being within the first three years of new model Oilhead production.

Also, please do not believe that I do not have my own personal fears. I am raising my eleven year old autistic son Seth single-handedly. I live in fear every day that Seth will not be able to overcome autism and survive when I am gone!

However, I'm simply not scared to ride my two BMW's; even though I no longer pack Seth behind me on the BMW's, I only take him out on the Yamaha or Harley!

Please go to http://www.azbeemers.org/forum/index.php?topic=612.msg2303 and you will see my beautiful Ingrid in the middle of that pack of fifteen BMW's.

For the last dozen years I have lead AZ Beemers on a once a month Breakfast Ride and a once a month Dinner Ride. I also lead the annual Death Valley Daze Ride from Phoenix and lead three trips into Mexico; all runs lead on an Oilhead.

My point is that two mechanical failures on Oilheads in 12 years isn't really that great of an inconvenience (one clutch and one final drive). This is nothing to be afraid of, but just to be aware of. I'm just hoping that BMWAG will finally fix this!

With All Sincerity,

Don Stanley
Chandler, AZ

 

[redclfco]

Dear Friend Red,

There was nothing in my post that should produce actual physical fear in you and if this did occur please forgive me! I was just recounting an event that happened six years ago when I was running between Guanajuato and San Miguel de Allende in Central Mexico at 120 km. It felt just like I had picked up a nail in my tire and I was able to safely get the bike down to a stop. At this point in time I have not heard of a single final drive failure that has killed or injured a BMW rider!

If your bike is indeed a 2002 then you don't own a Hexhead, you own an Oilhead. And I've not heard of any reports regarding final drive failures of the later Oilheads, but I've certainly have heard of final drive failures of the 2005 R1200 and newer Hexheads! So that you may know the models of BMW, please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_motorcycles and you can see how the 2005 R1200 (and newer) final drive differs from your 2002 Oilhead. My R1100GS was purchased in October of 2005 and it may have experience "teething" problems by being within the first three years of new model Oilhead production.

Also, please do not believe that I do not have my own personal fears. I am raising my eleven year old autistic son Seth single-handedly. I live in fear every day that Seth will not be able to overcome autism and survive when I am gone!

However, I'm simply not scared to ride my two BMW's; even though I no longer pack Seth behind me on the BMW's, I only take him out on the Yamaha or Harley!

Please go to http://www.azbeemers.org/forum/index.php?topic=612.msg2303 and you will see my beautiful Ingrid in the middle of that pack of fifteen BMW's.

For the last dozen years I have lead AZ Beemers on a once a month Breakfast Ride and a once a month Dinner Ride. I also lead the annual Death Valley Daze Ride from Phoenix and lead three trips into Mexico; all runs lead on an Oilhead.

My point is that two mechanical failures on Oilheads in 12 years isn't really that great of an inconvenience (one clutch and one final drive). This is nothing to be afraid of, but just to be aware of. I'm just hoping that BMWAG will finally fix this!

With All Sincerity,

Don Stanley
Chandler, AZ

Don,

(First of all I have a 05 not an 02 as I so brain-in-the ass reported in this and the next post DUH; I came back and fixed it)

A fear, sort of a big word like love or like hate. All of em carry many flavors sort of like eskimo for snow.

No Don, I don't quake in my sleep, but does this worry me? you bet. and worries me for everyone that rides what has been condemned as a "broken bike". I spout off a bit because I see people being railroaded into not getting the real deal when reading the posts about these bikes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhpainter
Well......now I am really confused. I joined BMW MOA without first having bought a BMW, and it did not take me long to realize that Beemer riders are my kind of people. After reading the ON mag and meeting with local Beemer clubs I finally convinced my wife I had to sell the stodgy '05 Goldwing and get an R1200GS in order to get back to my old off-road one-up roots with guys who like to move down the road. No more of this Goldwinger boredom!

Now I am having second thoughts. One reason I sold the Wing (step one) was that Honda refused to acknowledge a design defect of weak front suspension and steering head bearings creating front end wobble and tire cupping in brand new bikes. After spending nearly $500 for an aftermarket superbrace and new tapered steering head bearings, plus dealer install, to fix the wing, I find that BMW is in the same state of denial with the FD. Not the way to treat your loyal subjects. So now what. Can I get an extended warranty if I buy a new or nearly new R1200 GS that will cover the bearing FD problem? Or do I just ride my KLR 650 - wishing it had 30 more hp, a sixth gear, and ABS? There's nothing else out there.

But that's sort of not the point. the point is, the crtics that had no thought of this FD issue two weeks ago are easy to condemn the hexhead with no evidence. I'm not saying they are wrong, but I am saying my bets on them being wrong as the R series bikes 2005-2008 all being afflicted with a inferior design, a flaw of all flaws. This is the issue; I say where's the proof? They say HOW DARE you ask for proof!

B Don this is the issue. You had bad luck I'm sorry. Others (a very small percentage of the bikes out there) have had it as bad or worse with FD's But reading potential owners, new owners typing in this forum after being bombasted by bull ca ca that EVERY R series bike built from 2005-2008 have a design flaw, don't buy em don't trust them is a misleading line of unsubstantiated bull caca, and is misleading these people. I say let's tell em the truth; we don't know, but the ones that have been reported don't so much as jerk the richter scale needle a bit! I would be willing to guess that the FD failures of total hex heads falls to the right of the decimal than to the left in terms of overall FD failure. So far, nobody has proved that therory wrong.


FYI
The2005 I got was one of the last produced that year (I looked it up via the VIN on BMW's site) and indeed is a hex head R1200 GS, but who knows? you may know his better than I.

Red

 

[MOTOR31]

One of the things I find funny in all of the fuss about reliability of the brand is the latest BMW car commercial. Yeah I know seperate operation, but I find it amusing that they will not only warranty the car, but pay the normal maintenance on them including brake shoes for a specific mileage.

What do we get from BMW motorcycles? A hearty handshake, no laurel crown or paid maintenance much less an extension of the warranty.


Yeah this was kinda tongue in cheek but I really am tired of "hearing" / seeing the phrase that the cheapest thing on a BMW is the owner, particularly from an employee of the corporation / dealer. We as bike owners / customers aren't treated or valued the same as the car buyers.

 

[sjbmw]

One of the things I find funny in all of the fuss about reliability of the brand is the latest BMW car commercial. Yeah I know seperate operation, but I find it amusing that they will not only warranty the car, but pay the normal maintenance on them including brake shoes for a specific mileage.

What do we get from BMW motorcycles? A hearty handshake, no laurel crown or paid maintenance much less an extension of the warranty.


Yeah this was kinda tongue in cheek but I really am tired of "hearing" / seeing the phrase that the cheapest thing on a BMW is the owner, particularly from an employee of the corporation / dealer. We as bike owners / customers aren't treated or valued the same as the car buyers.

fwiw, BMW's 3yr/36k mile warranty is tops in the business. Asians and American builders offer 12 months on most of their models.

 

[beemerdons]

Actually, if you put on 18K a year on your bike; BMW is only the fourth best warranty

Dear Herb,

If you are like most MOA and RA members that put 18K in mileage on your BMW a year, or more, BMW is the fourth best warranty available against three of the Asian and American motorcycle companies. Kawasaki is Number One with 3 years and unlimited mileage on the Concours, Harley-Davidson is #2 with 2 years and unlimited mileage, Buell is #3 with 2 years and unlimited mileage; with BMW bringing up the rear at 36 months and 36,000 miles. Naturally, if you put on less than 12K a year, only a thousand miles a month, the BMW is 2nd best warranty.

Out of the seven BMW's I have owned, only the first R60/2 bought from my off the Army base German landlord in Bavaria was used; all of the other six were bought new and I exceeded the mileage before I exceeded the months in every case.

For example, if you go to www.azbeemers.org you will see that I am leading ten AZ Beemers to Mexico's Copper Canyon on October 5. When I return I will have 36K on the odometer but still nine months left from when she was bought in 2005

Yours, Don

 

[sjbmw]

Dear Herb,

If you are like most MOA and RA members that put 18K in mileage on your BMW a year, or more, BMW is the fourth best warranty available against three of the Asian and American motorcycle companies. Kawasaki is Number One with 3 years and unlimited mileage on the Concours, Harley-Davidson is #2 with 2 years and unlimited mileage, Buell is #3 with 2 years and unlimited mileage; with BMW bringing up the rear at 36 months and 36,000 miles. Naturally, if you put on less than 12K a year, only a thousand miles a month, the BMW is 2nd best warranty.

Out of the seven BMW's I have owned, only the first R60/2 bought from my off the Army base German landlord in Bavaria was used; all of the other six were bought new and I exceeded the mileage before I exceeded the months in every case.

For example, if you go to www.azbeemers.org you will see that I am leading ten AZ Beemers to Mexico's Copper Canyon on October 5. When I return I will have 36K on the odometer but still nine months left from when she was bought in 2005

Yours, Don

You pick the most expensive Kawasaki and declare them the best.
How many Kawasaki models actually have more than a 12 month warranty?
One? Two?

I don't have the time to do the analysis, but all but a few Kawie's have more than a 12 month warranty, with an option to buy more. This goes for the rest of the Pacific rim.

Unless you are buying the most expensive machine, you get 12 months. I paid $9990 for my BMW, the smallest, least expensive 1150, and got 3/36 standard.

Harley does not have the word 'warranty' on their website, so I can't verify theirs, but they sure do push service plans. if my friends are any barometer, they are a safe purchase.

 

[osbornk]

Dear Herb,

If you are like most MOA and RA members that put 18K in mileage on your BMW a year, or more, Don

SURE WE DO. How many BMWs under 6 years old have you seen that have turned over 100,000 miles?

 

[PGlaves]

SURE WE DO. How many BMWs under 6 years old have you seen that have turned over 100,000 miles?

We've had 4 such bikes in our household alone. Voni rides a lot. I try to keep up.

 

[globalrider]

BMW is the fourth best warranty available against three of the Asian and American motorcycle companies. Kawasaki is Number One with 3 years and unlimited mileage on the Concours...

A 3 year unlimited mileage warranty is what all of my BMWs came with since I first purchased one in 1991...and its not limited to just one model.

 

[globalrider]

How many BMWs under 6 years old have you seen that have turned over 100,000 miles?

Not many.

Depends on:
- the length of your riding season,
- whether you drive to work and use the motorcycle as daily transportation,
- how exciting your local roads are to drive,
- and whether you are a slave to a mileage contest or if the odometer reading high means a lot to you.

 

[Stuff2c]

We've had 4 such bikes in our household alone. Voni rides a lot. I try to keep up.

I need to hit the lotto, cuz I want to own 4 bikes with over 100k
That i put on them of course.

 

[beemerdons]

Alex made some outstanding observations in his 2 previous posts! Checkout his website

1. Does anyone have the answer to this question? Why do all of the other countries in this world have unlimited mileage warranties on their BMW motorcycles and we citizens of the United States are limited to 36,000 miles only?

2. Since snow is unknown and rainfall to date in Phoenix is only 2.6" you can ride every day here as long as you can take the heat. 30 straight over 110 days in 07.

3. It's 36 miles 1-way from my home in Chandler to my downtown Phoenix office. So, 18,000 miles are racked up each year just in daily transportation commuting.

4. http://www.azride.com/DevilsHighwayRun.html one of many exciting AZ roads.

5. Been a member of SCMA since a teenager in the sixties. www.usa4corners.org

By the way, checkout Alex's website! We AZ Beemers used it to plan our Alps trip.

 

[globalrider]

1. Does anyone have the answer to this question? Why do all of the other countries in this world have unlimited mileage warranties on their BMW motorcycles and we citizens of the United States are limited to 36,000 miles only?

I don't know if all other countries get unlimited mileage warranty coverage. I think BMW in Germany provides a 60K kilometer (~36K mile) warranty...I'll check and get back to you.

We probably get it because of our winters. In most cases we can't ride between December and March, but then neither can those in a lot of northern US states.

By the way, checkout Alex's website! We AZ Beemers used it to plan our Alps trip.

Good to hear! Thats the main purpose of my web site.

I'm just in the process of revamping it with more information (maps of the particular riding area, etc), although slowly. I know I haven't put up any pics since my 2004 tour. The problem is, everytime I get back from the Alps, I go into a state of depression and can't get motivated to do anything till...I get to go the next year. I haven't even been out on my bike since August 4th. My SmugMug site has my 2006 "mostly Corsica" pics up...sorry no captions yet. My SmugMug Site

Beemerdons, do you have a web site with any pics of your Alps tour?

 

[MOTOR31]

I don't know if all other countries get unlimited mileage warranty coverage. I think BMW in Germany provides a 60K kilometer (~36K mile) warranty...I'll check and get back to you.

We probably get it because of our winters. In most cases we can't ride between December and March, but then neither can those in a lot of northern US states.



Good to hear! Thats the main purpose of my web site.

I'm just in the process of revamping it with more information (maps of the particular riding area, etc), although slowly. I know I haven't put up any pics since my 2004 tour. The problem is, everytime I get back from the Alps, I go into a state of depression and can't get motivated to do anything till...I get to go the next year. I haven't even been out on my bike since August 4th. My SmugMug site has my 2006 "mostly Corsica" pics up...sorry no captions yet. My SmugMug Site

Beemerdons, do you have a web site with any pics of your Alps tour?

I believe that a lot more of the US has better Winter riding weather than Germany does.