Sorry! Yet another "RT won't start" thread

[redhededgreg]

The facts: 09 RT, 35K miles. Never a blip-always perfect, that is, until...
I'm 2000 miles from home riding across the upper peninsula of Michigan, commonly known as the UP.
Just crossed the border at 'The Sue' and filled up near empty tank with Shell V Power on the US side to avoid the nearly $6 per gallon Canada charge. Same station I had filled at about 10 days earlier when I was headed east.
After filling and heading across the UP, I stopped for a break after about 100 miles. After 20 minutes or so, saddled up and bike turned over but would not start with repeated attempts. Traveling with GS 911 so hook it up and no fault codes show. Thinking, maybe bad fuel. I get and add some SeaFoam, slosh around in the tank and try again. After several more tries, engine finally catches but running very roughly, on obviously one cylinder. Stop and restart and nursing the throttle, eventually smooths out. I hop on and continue west running at 4500-5000 rpm the next 80 miles to try to get as much fuel burned as possible.
I get to next town for overnight stop and immediately fuel up (about 3 gallons worth) with ethanol free premium. Bike starts up fine after refuel and again after i register at motel and move to room. Next morning...no joy. Bike will not start. Tried applying throttle, tried to the point of weakening battery and getting a jump for more tries. Would not fire or even hint at catching. Try repeatedly at 20 minute intervals.
Roadside assistance gets me to nearest dealer (not near). Get bike off truck and after explaining behaviour and problems, showing tech how bike will not start, of course!!!!!, it starts-not as it should, but it does start.
They keep to check the next day and after synching TB's and checking for any pinched fuel lines etc, give the bike a clean bill of health and send me on my way the next day. I plan my route west so my next stop will be near a dealer in case bike doesn't start the next morning. Bike starts the next morning and the morning after and the morning after that, but it's not quite right. After enough miles, we become very sensitve to subtle and not so subtle changes in our bikes' behaviours, and i can sense something is off. I sense this in the way my bike is running at start up and how quickly it starts-all is not as it should be.
On my final day, a long day, i take one last break before making the final 100 miles home. Done with break, ready to ride on...bike won't start. Turns over but gives not the slightest hint of catching. Multiple tries, including with some throttle applied.
WTF is going on? I've ruled out bad fuel as I've been through multiple tanks and brands of fuel since the first incident. I think the SeaFoam added and subsequent start were coincidental.
Related information: Before the first starting issue, I rode through heavy rains for 2 days and rode through significant rain each of the remaining days as well. Looking at other posts, when i eventually got home (via roadside assistance) i immediately looked to the FPC as a possible cause. No sign of any moisture there and no corrosion on contacts. It appears fine.
I hooked up the GS 911 again and no fault codes are present.
I'm at a loss so far. Please don't suggest any causal relationship between side stand versus center stand parking. It's never been an issue before with this bike so i don't much believe it's a possibility this time. Besides, the last time i was stranded, close to home, i had been riding about 200 miles straight beforfe stopping, and i did put the bike on the center stand when i took a break before it refused to start.

There are some very knowledgeable sources of information on this forum-i don't pretend to be one of them, but i would appreciate any suggestions for trouble shooting offered. I definitely have a specific and serious issue at this point. I hope my reluctance and hesitance to turn it over to a dealer again is understandable.

 

[waxrash]

Sounds like fuel pump controller, have you replaced or bypassed it. Mine behaved as you say until it finally died and was replaced. Easy test if you have the burns moto cable.

 

[waxrash]

Btw, my FPC looked perfect.

 

[Omega Man]

Sorta my first thought- FPC. Have a peek here-
http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?46879-How-NOT-to-Design-A-Fuel-Pump-Connection-ALL-R12s

 

[waxrash]

I kept the connector off my old FPC to make my own as well. A riding buddy of mine on a GS had similar issues. Dealer said fuel pump lead was not clicked in well and as it vibrated. They said they reseated. I'm not sure I buy that, because we checked the connection at the FPC. Is there a connection point unter the fairing somewhere?

 

[Polarbear]

I try simple first

AIR, FUEL, Spark. Plugs are the easiest to swap out for new ones. Get your air filter out, be sure its not clogged or passageways blocked anywhere. The Sea Foam was a good idea and shoulda cleared any fuel injector issues. Check your throttle bodies electrical connectors thoroughly for any damage. This is the simple stuff. TB synch has been messed up by more than one dealer! Youre best learning this procedure yourself and buying the tool for the job. Its quite simple. GS911 would have read the bigger issues of electrical concerns in the bike. My first guess is fuel related too. Your fuel tank been off the bike for any reason? If so, the vent lines are critical...

 

[roborider]

When it refuses to start, spray some starting fluid into the snout. If it fires up (and dies), then you know you definitely have a fuel problem. I'd also suspect FPC given the rain you had.

Clogs and such don't come and go, so injectors, etc., should be fine. FPC is my bet. Easy to bypass and check.

 

[31310]

Pretty much the exact symptoms my '07 RT had two months ago except it wasn't so generous with running extra miles. Pulled the fpc off, no continuity with a multi meter, so new unit installed, it fired right up and runs normal once again.

 

[bdimon]

This is similar to an issue I had with my 2005 RT. It ran fine on the way to the office but would not start for the trip home. It turned out to be water in the gasoline.

 

[roborider]

I wouldn't expect water to be intermittent. Wouldn't Seafoam remove water?

 

[martyhill]

OP said multiple brands over several fill-ups. That should rule out bad gas.

 

[2fast2]

FPC is my guess, or some other electrical system.
When mine went it was intermittent for a start and run cycle before it died completely. The starting fluid squirt which Rob suggested to me, as well, confirmed the issue was fuel.

Good luck with this.
Jim

 

[stagewex]

Have you replaced your fuel filter, recently? You didn't mention anything about it in your post.
At 30,000 to 32,000 miles I believe is suggested. Looks like you bikes milage is just past that.
I had similar symptoms. Resolved after changing the filter. Since it's located in the tank it's a sucky job.

 

[azgman]

There is no fuel filter on an '09 RT, only a "strainer" and I don't know of any replacement interval for that. FPC is my vote as well.

 

[racer7]

Only 1 problem with the fpc theory. I've never known one to fail without leaving one of the many possible codes that cover it for the GS-911 to see.
There are at least 4 codes and maybe many more, all of which I know about say something like "NO POWER AT FUEL PUMP". Does not get my vote but maybe there is some mode I haven't seen yet.

I am wondering about a bad primary ignition coil or connector to it. May not leave a code and no simple way to test exactly other than a swap (though ability to jump a very wide- not spark plug- air gap might work.
Coils often fail when hot and sometimes work better when allowed to cool.

Or anything that might be related to carelessness or bad handling (pulling too hard on a wire, for example) in a service done prior to the ride.

Might be fuel - water can "get stuck" in systems in a lot of ways though an additive shoud have addressed that. And yes there is no filter on that bike.

Gonna have to get systematic to run it down.

Sounds like dealer didn't do much more than run a code check and call it good.

You can of course log real time data with the GS-911 which will likely help point you in the right direction if you know how to read what it tells you after exporting to a spreadsheet.

 

[BrianV]

Another vote for the FPC. The problem children with the FPC are on the inside, where you can't see them. I don't know why your GS-911 didn't show the codes. Did you have it hooked up to your Android or Blackberry in the "limited function" mode, or did you have a laptop with you that you could read, test, and clear with?

I carry a spare FPC under the back seat all the time. Been stuck twice now. Won't happen again.

Good luck, really.

Brian

 

[roborider]

Only 1 problem with the fpc theory. I've never known one to fail without leaving one of the many possible codes that cover it for the GS-911 to see.
There are at least 4 codes and maybe many more, all of which I know about say something like "NO POWER AT FUEL PUMP". Does not get my vote but maybe there is some mode I haven't seen yet.

The other thing that bothers me about the FPC is the intermittent nature. I would expect it to die and be done. But maybe it has a heat related causation, too.

I just hope the OP gives us the final result. Internet troubleshooting is no fun w/o the final answer!

 

[redhededgreg]

Problem solved!

But what was it, that is the question. The worst kind of all, possibly undetermined and intermittent. Thanks for all the suggestions:

In response to a couple of questions: when I was stranded and hooked up the GS-911, I had only the limited Android software through a tablet to work with. As I stated before, no error codes were shown.

When I returned home and connected to the full PC version of the software on my laptop, again, no fault codes showed. The bike, however, now in my garage, still would not start. since no fault codes showed my assumption is that the FPC was NOT the problem. Also, using the "Electric Fuel Pump Test" function on the GS-911 i could clearly hear the fuel pump cycling during the test. I would assume this could not happen with a defective FPC (correct me if I'm wrong-PLEASE).

As I indicated, the problem has been solved, however, only to the extent that the RT again seems to be running perfectly. Being frustrated to the extent of using the shotgun approach (yes, that also means I was tempted to buy a shotgun and put her down) I started randomly doing things one or more, or none, of which may have brought the RT back to normalcy. Replaced the air filter (just completing the 36K service item i had previously omitted). Removed and checked the primary plugs, and since I had the valve covers off and plugs out, checked and adjusted the valve clearances (please shoot me if you hear i have ever let a dealer do this again). They were poorly adjusted. Synched the throttle bodies and found them to have been poorly balanced as well.

Part of me wants to think the 2 full days of riding in heavy rain had something to do with the problem. However, I like to think that such a well designed all-weather touring machine as the RT, would not be subject to problems resulting to exposure to continuous rain riding.

All seems good again and before heading to St. Paul in a few days, I took an opportunity to make a short road trip over several days in-state last week and in the course of a number of stops and starts and being parked for several days in between about 500 miles total, no problems whatsoever!

I did however purchase the FPC bypass connector and will have it with me always.

Hopefully will make it to St. Paul and back with no problems. Thanks for the suggestions and feedback. We all know it's great to find THE problem and cure it. Unfortunately, I'm not sure which of the pellets from the shotgun I fired at it hit the mark, if any.

I will of course, post an update if i experience this again and find out exactly what is going on. (Definitely hoping not to post again!)