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R100S Fork Brace
- Thread starter EMSimon
- Start date
T
TGHSMITH
Guest
tightness on the rear wheel is normal, if possilble remove air going in and out can make this easier, something is out of place on the forks , you should be able to bolt this up, read the duane pages on this!!!!!
On putting the brace on, take off the top caps. With the front end loose it will not only be easier to install the braces, but you will have an easier time aligning the forks, so you get a stiction free ride.
As to rear wheel, you do not say what size tire. If it is a 120/90, which everyone seems compelled to fit, this is what you get for that. Switch to correct size 400x18, and the wheel removal is easier. You might also be pleased with the ride from the change.
As to rear wheel, you do not say what size tire. If it is a 120/90, which everyone seems compelled to fit, this is what you get for that. Switch to correct size 400x18, and the wheel removal is easier. You might also be pleased with the ride from the change.
Yes, the large 35mm(?) nut should be off, springs in or out. That way you are not fighting spring pressure just to get the sliders where they need to be to attach the brace/fender.
As to the alignment, with the caps off, you can feel how the brace affects the smoothness of the sliders on the tubes, as you set it, so you can get it right. You are screwing steel into aluminum - so antiseize please!
You do want to have completed the bearing lube and setting, and stanchion distance above the bottom triple, before you do the brace. That would include the lower triple pinch bolts being done, so then the stanchions won't fall out
i assume you are usting the stock top triple plate, not a forged aftermarket.
V
VANZEN
Guest
hoop braces
When these hoop-type braces were originally sold as an aftermarket item –
the installation 'corrections' detailed that they must be "adjusted" to fit the mountings.
Too often buyers expected to "just bolt them on" and did so –
much to the detriment of forks action.
IF the mounting bolts don't "line up",
one of two situations exist:
1) the forks or not in alignment
or, just as likely,
2) the braces were never properly fit to the forks.
IF the forks assembly is known to be in alignment,
(forks alignment proceedure courtesy of Duane Ausherman)
the hoop-type braces must fit EXACTLY –
perfectly mated to the mountings on the sliders,
without force, effort, or spaces between.
IF this is not the case, the hoops must be carefully bent or shimmed so that they do fit EXACTLY
... or stiction & improper forks action will be the result.
There is a proper sequence for tightening bolts when assembling forks
to eliminate stiction, but ...
IF you are removing or loosening any of the forks assembly in order to fit the hoops –
it's a clue – something ain't right.
IF you need to remove the caps and release spring pressure to line up the sliders and mounting bolts –
it's a clue – something ain't right.
IF the wheel spindle does not slip through the wheel components and into the opposite slider without effort, resistance, or force –
it's a clue – something ain't right.
When these hoop-type braces were originally sold as an aftermarket item –
the installation 'corrections' detailed that they must be "adjusted" to fit the mountings.
Too often buyers expected to "just bolt them on" and did so –
much to the detriment of forks action.
IF the mounting bolts don't "line up",
one of two situations exist:
1) the forks or not in alignment
or, just as likely,
2) the braces were never properly fit to the forks.
IF the forks assembly is known to be in alignment,
(forks alignment proceedure courtesy of Duane Ausherman)
the hoop-type braces must fit EXACTLY –
perfectly mated to the mountings on the sliders,
without force, effort, or spaces between.
IF this is not the case, the hoops must be carefully bent or shimmed so that they do fit EXACTLY
... or stiction & improper forks action will be the result.
There is a proper sequence for tightening bolts when assembling forks
to eliminate stiction, but ...
IF you are removing or loosening any of the forks assembly in order to fit the hoops –
it's a clue – something ain't right.
IF you need to remove the caps and release spring pressure to line up the sliders and mounting bolts –
it's a clue – something ain't right.
IF the wheel spindle does not slip through the wheel components and into the opposite slider without effort, resistance, or force –
it's a clue – something ain't right.
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V
VANZEN
Guest
more hoops
OK. The holes that mount the fender ...
Fit:
The first 'kind' of hoop-braces available were 2 separate pieces ÔÇô
As mentioned, be sure you have front & back correct, they are different.
Has been many years since I've installed any of the hoop braces,
but I do remember lightly bending the fender mount tabs on the hoops,
using @ 1/4" rubber spacers between those mounts and the fender
as well as slightly longer screws
in order to make the fit and "look" appropriate with the stock sheet-metal fender brace underneath.
I believe that many who used the hoop-braces at the time simply discarded the stock sheet-metal piece.
Rotating hoops:
Apparently this was a problem worth addressing, as both Luftmeister and CC Products
later offered braces with the hoops welded together with plates at each side,
and the 2-piece was discontinued.
By that time, I was a dedicated Telefix fan ...
OK. The holes that mount the fender ...
Fit:
The first 'kind' of hoop-braces available were 2 separate pieces ÔÇô
As mentioned, be sure you have front & back correct, they are different.
Has been many years since I've installed any of the hoop braces,
but I do remember lightly bending the fender mount tabs on the hoops,
using @ 1/4" rubber spacers between those mounts and the fender
as well as slightly longer screws
in order to make the fit and "look" appropriate with the stock sheet-metal fender brace underneath.
I believe that many who used the hoop-braces at the time simply discarded the stock sheet-metal piece.
Rotating hoops:
Apparently this was a problem worth addressing, as both Luftmeister and CC Products
later offered braces with the hoops welded together with plates at each side,
and the 2-piece was discontinued.
By that time, I was a dedicated Telefix fan ...
M
mymindsok
Guest
Wait a minute....
If you took the brace off, why arnt you putting it back together the same way? If it fit once, it'll fit again. Right?
There is also the possibility that youre trying to instakll the brace backwards. Try turningit around.
Lastly. Without photos, it's difficult to diagnose these issues. Post some photos of your problem and remember, to properly install that brace, you usually/allways need to remove the sliders (Lower legs.), put the brace in place and then slide the loosly assembled parts in place.
If everything was finebefore, then you simply have to go back and figuer out what yo've changed to screw things up. OTOH, iy youre fitting the brace to a different bike, all bets are off!
If you took the brace off, why arnt you putting it back together the same way? If it fit once, it'll fit again. Right?
There is also the possibility that youre trying to instakll the brace backwards. Try turningit around.
Lastly. Without photos, it's difficult to diagnose these issues. Post some photos of your problem and remember, to properly install that brace, you usually/allways need to remove the sliders (Lower legs.), put the brace in place and then slide the loosly assembled parts in place.
If everything was finebefore, then you simply have to go back and figuer out what yo've changed to screw things up. OTOH, iy youre fitting the brace to a different bike, all bets are off!
This bike is old enough where i figure someone might want the hoops to look more "period". I have heard the sidecar guys like the double hoops - but besides that they are a PITA as far as stiction and alignment. No thanks!
Telefix/SJB/clone is way2go...
V
VANZEN
Guest
the question
"If everything was fine before ..."
"IF" seems to be THE operative term in my book,
and worth further scrutiny.
I have seen so many of these hoops installed incorrectly –
that I, personally, would never assume the premise (everything was fine before)
to be true.
Last occasion, this past summer:
An R75 that had the 2-piece hoop-braces installed.
My job was to coach / instruct the new owner on pad replacement and ATE caliper adjustment.
In the course of conversation, the owner asked if all R75s felt "vague" at hi-way speeds.
Said he thought worn tires might be the culprit, but replacing them didn't seem to help.
He continued that he had owned an R75 years ago but did not remember the "loose" feeling of this particular bike.
On to the brakes;
Removing the spindle to extricate the front wheel for pad replacement required more than the usual effort,
and once freed from the constraints of the spindle, the clutch-side slider sprung out of alignment ...
the spindle center was now 1/2" from center of it's place in the slider,
and would need to be "forced" into submission to re-assemble.
Think there was some "static friction" induced into this system ?
This might be an example of: "If it fit once, it'll fit again. Right?"
So we removed the hoop-braces, and the spindle now slid into place effortlessly.
But the hoops sure didn't !
A little work on a bench vice with a length of pipe, and some vice-grips,
and we were able to reshape the hoops to actually fit the forks.
Finished the brake work at hand, and a few days later got the report:
"stable as can be ..."
"If everything was fine before ..."
"IF" seems to be THE operative term in my book,
and worth further scrutiny.
I have seen so many of these hoops installed incorrectly –
that I, personally, would never assume the premise (everything was fine before)
to be true.
Last occasion, this past summer:
An R75 that had the 2-piece hoop-braces installed.
My job was to coach / instruct the new owner on pad replacement and ATE caliper adjustment.
In the course of conversation, the owner asked if all R75s felt "vague" at hi-way speeds.
Said he thought worn tires might be the culprit, but replacing them didn't seem to help.
He continued that he had owned an R75 years ago but did not remember the "loose" feeling of this particular bike.
On to the brakes;
Removing the spindle to extricate the front wheel for pad replacement required more than the usual effort,
and once freed from the constraints of the spindle, the clutch-side slider sprung out of alignment ...
the spindle center was now 1/2" from center of it's place in the slider,
and would need to be "forced" into submission to re-assemble.
Think there was some "static friction" induced into this system ?
This might be an example of: "If it fit once, it'll fit again. Right?"
So we removed the hoop-braces, and the spindle now slid into place effortlessly.
But the hoops sure didn't !
A little work on a bench vice with a length of pipe, and some vice-grips,
and we were able to reshape the hoops to actually fit the forks.
Finished the brake work at hand, and a few days later got the report:
"stable as can be ..."
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"But...A local airhead guy I consulted on the problem told me that the hoop brace was always intended to be used INSTEAD of the stock sheet metal under-fender brace NOT TOGETHER WITH IT. That's the reason it has the mounting eyes for the fender, which are actually otherwise totally useless. Anybody remembers and concurs?"
Yes, that's how they were intended to be installed.
Yes, that's how they were intended to be installed.
V
VANZEN
Guest
also
That is what I remember, also ÔÇô at least regarding the early 2-piece hoop-braces.
However, I have installed them successfully with & without the stock piece.
(Primordial thinking: if one is good, two ...)
That is what I remember, also ÔÇô at least regarding the early 2-piece hoop-braces.
However, I have installed them successfully with & without the stock piece.
(Primordial thinking: if one is good, two ...)
I'm going to find out.......
In '90 I purchased a used set of San Jose red hoops, separate, when I had the whole bike in pieces. Pic. p. 55, '74 R90S.
Upon reassembly and realignment I left the stamped chromed brace off because the bolts were not long enough. To mount the fender I had to fashion spacers between the brace fender tab supports with longer fender screws because the fender was goofy looking way up off the tire.
This winter, having taken things apart once more, I found the chromed stamped brace, thought it was simply too cool, and stiff, to leave off the bike. So, got the appropriate longer brace bolts with new lock nuts, mounted the fender as from the factory on the stamped brace, with the hoops outside. Doubly stiff! No?
I've ridden it only once, seemed slightly different, however I haven't held it over in fast corner, hitting a bump. Can't see how eliminating any or all deflection of both sliders from their respective planes would not be welcome.
One thing the manufacturer may have wished to avoid is the expense of including a set of longer bolts and new lock nuts, with every set of hoops. So he just said, "install without old stamped brace"?
In '90 I purchased a used set of San Jose red hoops, separate, when I had the whole bike in pieces. Pic. p. 55, '74 R90S.
Upon reassembly and realignment I left the stamped chromed brace off because the bolts were not long enough. To mount the fender I had to fashion spacers between the brace fender tab supports with longer fender screws because the fender was goofy looking way up off the tire.
This winter, having taken things apart once more, I found the chromed stamped brace, thought it was simply too cool, and stiff, to leave off the bike. So, got the appropriate longer brace bolts with new lock nuts, mounted the fender as from the factory on the stamped brace, with the hoops outside. Doubly stiff! No?
I've ridden it only once, seemed slightly different, however I haven't held it over in fast corner, hitting a bump. Can't see how eliminating any or all deflection of both sliders from their respective planes would not be welcome.
One thing the manufacturer may have wished to avoid is the expense of including a set of longer bolts and new lock nuts, with every set of hoops. So he just said, "install without old stamped brace"?
M
mymindsok
Guest
This is one of those threads wherein a couple of photos of the bike in question would have saved a lot of time and posting.
I have never seen a SJ Brace installed with the stock brace left in place and it would appear that trying to mount both braces at the same time would make the process almost undoable since both braces mount to the same studs in the fork legs and either one could be just different enough to interfere with the other. OTOH, I know that at least some guys have accomplished this task and that might even be what Matt intended in the first place, though I doubt it.
Remember... Both braces are intended to fit in the exact same place and therefore one or both will need to be "adjusted". (Not to mention the fact thay one or both might be tweaked!!)
Having grown up in Cleveland, I am very much aware that this is one of those conundrums (Two things occupying the same space, at the same time.) that seem only to happen when dealing with Cleveland and it's suburbs, Lake Erie or the Cuyahoga River.
Oh well....... It's 90 degrees and sunny here in Cali!
I have never seen a SJ Brace installed with the stock brace left in place and it would appear that trying to mount both braces at the same time would make the process almost undoable since both braces mount to the same studs in the fork legs and either one could be just different enough to interfere with the other. OTOH, I know that at least some guys have accomplished this task and that might even be what Matt intended in the first place, though I doubt it.
Remember... Both braces are intended to fit in the exact same place and therefore one or both will need to be "adjusted". (Not to mention the fact thay one or both might be tweaked!!)
Having grown up in Cleveland, I am very much aware that this is one of those conundrums (Two things occupying the same space, at the same time.) that seem only to happen when dealing with Cleveland and it's suburbs, Lake Erie or the Cuyahoga River.
Oh well....... It's 90 degrees and sunny here in Cali!
Some of the San Jose/CC Products tube braces use the factory brace in addition to the aftermarket one. These add-on braces are diirect decendants of Butler and Smith's Superbike Racing program. The tires they were using were much too wide for the stamped brace, so a pair of /5 braces were modified to hold the fender. Thus an entirly new accessory was born.
ima4rnr, have you confirmed your stamped brace is oriented correctly? There are four fender mounting bolt holes in the front (the inner ones are for /6 fenders) and two in the rear.
ima4rnr, have you confirmed your stamped brace is oriented correctly? There are four fender mounting bolt holes in the front (the inner ones are for /6 fenders) and two in the rear.
M
mymindsok
Guest
I wonder if theres a troll around here?
Sniff.... Sniff...
Sniff.... Sniff...
V
VANZEN
Guest
this ain't theory ...
In spite of hypothetical opinions expressed in this thread
and whether consistent with the manufacturers' intention ... or not –
using both the stock fender bracket and the aftermarket hoops concurrently
was COMMON PRACTICE.
The facts remain:
Hoop-type braces can be installed successfully with or without the stock fender bracket.
In both cases, fitting the hoops is not a "simple bolt-on" affair.
Bending and / or shimming of the hoops is (usually) necessary in either case.
The hoops MUST be fit to the forks assembly – or forks action will be compromised.
These are not issues of contention.
The proposed concept of "2 braces occupying 1 space" is theoretical nonsense.
Of course, none of this addresses the problem of ima4nr's particular application.
The FACT that ima4nr's bike previously had these hoops installed guarantees that fitment is possible.
That the hoops were correctly / incorrectly fitted to ima4nr's bike would be an assumption.
Either assumption is moot in so far as it does not preclude the possibility of proper fitment.
Without "hands on" experimentation or at least a visual tutorial of some kind to explain the misalignment ...
to understand the "why" of ima4nr's problem –
it is difficult if not impossible to offer a solution.
I can see at least 2 possible scenarios:
1) re-assembly has not exactly replicated the original installation, or
2) forks alignment has changed with re-assembly.
AND: that is one pretty Type-247, there, ima4nr !
(but I'd keep the hoops)
In spite of hypothetical opinions expressed in this thread
and whether consistent with the manufacturers' intention ... or not –
using both the stock fender bracket and the aftermarket hoops concurrently
was COMMON PRACTICE.
The facts remain:
Hoop-type braces can be installed successfully with or without the stock fender bracket.
In both cases, fitting the hoops is not a "simple bolt-on" affair.
Bending and / or shimming of the hoops is (usually) necessary in either case.
The hoops MUST be fit to the forks assembly – or forks action will be compromised.
These are not issues of contention.
The proposed concept of "2 braces occupying 1 space" is theoretical nonsense.
Of course, none of this addresses the problem of ima4nr's particular application.
The FACT that ima4nr's bike previously had these hoops installed guarantees that fitment is possible.
That the hoops were correctly / incorrectly fitted to ima4nr's bike would be an assumption.
Either assumption is moot in so far as it does not preclude the possibility of proper fitment.
Without "hands on" experimentation or at least a visual tutorial of some kind to explain the misalignment ...
to understand the "why" of ima4nr's problem –
it is difficult if not impossible to offer a solution.
I can see at least 2 possible scenarios:
1) re-assembly has not exactly replicated the original installation, or
2) forks alignment has changed with re-assembly.
AND: that is one pretty Type-247, there, ima4nr !
(but I'd keep the hoops)
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