Position on ABATE?

[jogitu]

*********UPDATE********
I spoke with an Indiana official today about ABATES role in the safety courses. The state of Indiana contracts ABATE to teach the courses. It is currently on a 2 year contact. He told me he was an ABATE member up front. e also told me when this contract comes up ABATE is the only one that steps in to teach the course. He assured me helmets and gear was part of the curriculum. The curriculum used is from the MSF. MSF is ATGATT. He explained in the length the helmet discussion. He also explained at no time does the helmet choice come and it is never mentioned as an option. He assured me he was a ATGATT guy and shared the same dismay on the loud pipe, helmet less crowd. He saw ABATE as an advocate for rights even though he disagreed with some. I get that being a member of a certain gun rights org that I don't always agree with in whole. In the end I felt better about what was being taught. I don't feel any better about the message they promote. In the end what is being taught in class is being unlearned on the street by the message they get outside if the class. The two are not exclusive. I feel assured the class is being taught properly after my conversation. I also feel assured ABATE then steps all over that message outside of the class. In the end more harm than good. I did learn something. I know insurance rates are effected by accidents. Some of you seem to willfully ignore that truth. He explained something ABATE is pushing for in Indiana I agree with. Scooters and mopeds get lumped in with motorcycles when accidents are reported. Scooters and mopeds don't require a operators license or even registration in this state. These are the vehicle of choice for DUI offenders that lose their license. We called these liquor cycles back not the beach of NC. State Farm alone paid out over $4 million last year on scooter related accidents. As any thinking person knows these things do show up in rates. What ABATE is pushing for is a requirement for registration, a operators license and a different designation recognized by the state for scooters. This would not lump in the deaths, accidents and liabilities with motorcycles for state accident rates. So in the end I found common ground with a Hayabusa Rider that is an ABATE member. We seem to think alike but I still think they do more harm than good. I don't feel better about their overall message but until another org comes along perhaps they are the only message available. That makes me sad because they don't speak for me any more than a politician speaks for all of his party. The only way I see to change the message is to get involved and make sure leadership of the AMA or ABATE is on the same path. So to change them I guess I have to join them.
**********UPDATE***********

It came to my attention ABATE of Michigan is pushing hard to reverse the helmet law in Michigan. Indiana ABATE supports this on their site. I am more than a little slack jawed that an organization it says is there to promote safety promotes helmet choice. One cannot be exclusive of the other. Until now I thought ABATE was an ornagization that promoted safety and rider rights.

In Michigan apparently they use the MSF for safety training with ABATE. How in the hell can MSF tie themselves to this group? I wrote Vince Consiglio from ABATE asking them how they can support helmet choice. He replied with, and I quote, "did you forget about 9/11? This is America. 30 states are choice. Let those who RIDE (it was all caps) decide". So this is who is running things. Forget about the fact on their own site they talk about promoting safety and taking a MSF course. What is MSF's position on safety? I will answer for you, ATGATT.

Another question is why is MSF involved at all with ABATE?

I understand freedom. I cherish it but in today's world more than half the riders ride because it is a keeping up with the Joneses thing. These riders don't have the skills and picked up riding because it looked cool. Now you have an organization teaching it is ok to ride without gear. Gear that can save your life. The obvious challenge to the motorcycle community is death and serious injury that causes legislation. Enough people get hurt or killed not wearing gear then there becomes talk of outlawing motorcycles. Think it can't happen? Remember 3 wheelers? I have seen newspaper articles calling for this now. Senseless deaths under the excuse of freedom is irresponsible for any organization to take. While we are at it let's remove all the safety buttons from guns.

I hate those loud, straight piped, chromed out, wife beater wearing riders and know they will learn a bad lesson when they crash if they survive. I don't hate them enough to see them die. I don't want to see it and know it can be prevented. I know they make fun of each other for wearing gear and dot helmets. I know many don't have skills. I would just expect an organization that is there to supposedly promote safety would do so with responsibility.

I don't know how but I am going to push in the opposite direction. I have placed some calls and obviously ABATE and their think tank is not open to other opinions. Perhaps as I suggested to Vince they all need to take a course. It's a damn shame people will die because of these so called leaders that are endorsing irresponsible riding.

 

[sjbmw]

At the Rally in Bloomsburg, I saw many of MOA members riding to around (mostly to swimming holes) in nothing but sneakers, bathing suits, and sunglasses.
How much in fines should they have paid for this?
Let's not give a free pass to our friends now, that is just bad political favor.

Those who truly cherish freedom must learn to live with it's risks, even the risks to others. There are no buts. Defending freedom does not make one a supporter of any cause other than freedom. Yes, stupid people do stupid thngs. That does not give the right to rob everyone else of choices.

One can defend a person's right to free speech, even if the speech is disagreed with. It's not a valid correlation to say that those that support helmet choice are encouraging other's to ride without them. They are supporting their individual personal right to choose.

Those that support the 2nd amendment are not supporting the bad outcomes of guns in the wrong hands. They are demanding their individual choice.

The notion we are a society of grown up children in need of benevolent overlords to watch over and protect us from ourselves is not freedom.

People who ride without a helmet risk death. Their own death. People that skydive from airplanes also risk death, their own death. So be it.


October 2nd, PBS: The new Ken Burns film "Prohibition" debuts. We can take a step back in time when anti-alcohol forces ruled the day, and knew what was best for everyone else.

 

[jogitu]

I obviously think people should wear helmets. Nobody is living in a fishbowl when they ride and the same arguments that require us to wear seat belts could be made for helmet wear. That aside my main beef is ABATE. What do they stand for? Safety or pleasing the masses? You can't preach safety and helmet choice. Their stance reminds me of most politicians that talk out of both sides of their mouth to ensure the most votes. They want membership. They are pleasing the masses of non helmet wearing riders who buy into myths. I know these guys, I know the myths and I know an organization that touts safety should take an authoritative stance on this and promote safety the right way and expose the myths. Instead they make wearing a helmet a choice issue like it is no big deal. Unless I am mistaken the doo rags don't protect or even hold in gray matter. In the end we all pay for this ignorance. Wearing a helmet could be your choice if you live in a fishbowl and nobody had to pay for your brain injury. The fact is we all have to pay higher premiums on vehicle and health because of the injuries. If you are not insured we pay even more. This particular freedom of choice effects others in a negative way and there is no upside. I have watched my motorcycle insurance climb over the last decade. It is precisely because of the injuries and accidents that occur while motorcycling as a hobby has increased. I will not sit by while the guy listening to Steppenwolf in his head while he rides helmet less tells me about his freedom. Especially when he spreads this pseudo macho religion masked as freedom to more rubes. This is clearly a case of we need to educate and not coddle ignorance. ABATE is a sham, a joke, a pitiful excuse for a riders right organization. The Sham Wow guy has more credibility than these guys ever will.

 

[jacko]

hot coffee

I dislike big brother government and feel on many issues that a person should be responseable for their own actions wheither its wearing helmets,drinking and driving or hot coffee spilled in ones lap (sueing McDonald's incident). If you go down and break your head open don't expect me to cry for you or pay for burial through taxes. If you drink and drive and hurt me I think I should get to hurt you back as bad as you hurt me. Companies/person's shouldn't be sued for someone elses lack of common sense or stupidity.


I don't believe I actually made a comment on this post instead of passing it over. If the club,company, organization etc doesn't meet your needs/views don't support them.

 

[sjbmw]

I think I should wear a helmet when I ride, and I do. You have made a good choice too.

The assertion that our wallets are at risk because of increased insurance premiums for helmetless riders can't be substantiated. The "cost to society" claimed as a burden has no verifiable cost data behind it either.

Yes, head injuries have a cost, but the transfer of this cost to helmet wearing riders is an assumption, that fails the actual test.

Case in point:

I live in NJ, and helmet law state, and I have 2 non-mandatory states next to me (PA, and DE) and my NJ bike insurance is 2 times the cost of comparable policies in PA, or DE. If the "helmetless rider as insurance cost parasite" assertion were true those PA and DE riders would have higher premiums than me. They pay 50% of what I pay.

That dog does not hunt.

We all understand that we don't like to see needless injury and death, and we are compassionate in this regard.

Sometimes we just have to find peace with the fact that Life itself is a sexually tranmitted disease, and it's terminal.

 

[i-scream-stop]

This poor guy rode in an ABATE ride to protest helmet laws in NY state. Medical experts contended that he would have likely survived had he worn a helmet. Fate can be cruel.[/QUOTE]

I went on and ABATE spring poker run ONCE on an invite from my brother who was a member. I was the funny looking one of the near hundred on the ride because I was wearing everything and it was red not black leather. I witnessed so many just STUPID things happen on this short hundred mile ride that seemed to go from bar to bar. At the end of the ride the region directer asked me what I thought of the ride, I asked him what ABATE stands for and that these are the people who are teaching new riders in their safety course. After I witnessed these "American bikers aimed toward education", I would never ride with them again.
David Whittle is offline Reply With Quote

I posted this on another ABATE thread, my thoughts are still the same on them and always will be. I don't feel that if you are educating someone it is in your best interest to influence by example. I have a few more than the above encounters with the area ABATE club and aside from maybe 2% of the members that are about safety, the rest are yuppie wannabe biker gang members in my opinion. I used to have a safety equipment business and sat up a couple of their swap meets. The amazing thing is that the true riders cared about their gear and were relatively good people,, the rest were doctors and layers and such that should have enough education and smarts to realize what they are doing and to understand the risks, go for the look instead and are total butt-heads.
Of course, this is MY opinion that comes from my personal encounters. I live in Indiana and have a choice of what I wear and how often. I know the risks of riding and I can take the critics on my wearing of the gear. I also try to educate the people I talk to about the effects of asphalt on the head and skin whether they listen or not and I don't need a club behind me to tell me how to dress or ride.

 

[jnerges]

It came to my attention ABATE of Michigan is pushing hard to reverse the helmet law in Michigan. Indiana ABATE supports this on their site. I am more than a little slack jawed that an organization it says is there to promote safety promotes helmet choice. One cannot be exclusive of the other. Until now I thought ABATE was an ornagization that promoted safety and rider rights.

In Michigan apparently they use the MSF for safety training with ABATE. How in the hell can MSF tie themselves to this group? I wrote Vince Consiglio from ABATE asking them how they can support helmet choice. He replied with, and I quote, "did you forget about 9/11? This is America. 30 states are choice. Let those who RIDE (it was all caps) decide". So this is who is running things. Forget about the fact on their own site they talk about promoting safety and taking a MSF course. What is MSF's position on safety? I will answer for you, ATGATT.

Another question is why is MSF involved at all with ABATE?

I understand freedom. I cherish it but in today's world more than half the riders ride because it is a keeping up with the Joneses thing. These riders don't have the skills and picked up riding because it looked cool. Now you have an organization teaching it is ok to ride without gear. Gear that can save your life. The obvious challenge to the motorcycle community is death and serious injury that causes legislation. Enough people get hurt or killed not wearing gear then there becomes talk of outlawing motorcycles. Think it can't happen? Remember 3 wheelers? I have seen newspaper articles calling for this now. Senseless deaths under the excuse of freedom is irresponsible for any organization to take. While we are at it let's remove all the safety buttons from guns.

I hate those loud, straight piped, chromed out, wife beater wearing riders and know they will learn a bad lesson when they crash if they survive. I don't hate them enough to see them die. I don't want to see it and know it can be prevented. I know they make fun of each other for wearing gear and dot helmets. I know many don't have skills. I would just expect an organization that is there to supposedly promote safety would do so with responsibility.

I don't know how but I am going to push in the opposite direction. I have placed some calls and obviously ABATE and their think tank is not open to other opinions. Perhaps as I suggested to Vince they all need to take a course. It's a damn shame people will die because of these so called leaders that are endorsing irresponsible riding.

Tell me again how 9/11 is connected to the helmet choice discussion?

 

[bunkyone]

Hey all: While ABATE was formed to fight the MANDATORY helmet laws, they have expanded their outreach; They are now involved with (as the O.P. stated) with the MSF, as well as several other motorcycle rights organizations. I don't find anything wrong with being against MANDATORY helmet use (while encouraging helmet use) and still promoting safety. Isn't motorcycling about freedom? I won't argue that some of the riders who take part in ABATE events are, shall we say, skills challenged? I have been to BMW events where some riders have shown equally bad judgement. I can't help but to wonder if some of the comments in this thread aren't maybe a bit of "them VS us". While I no longer wear the "wife beater TEE shirts," and don't attend ABATE meetings on a regular basis, I continue to maintain my membership in the organization. I know Vince, and he and the staff at ABATE are dedicated to this cause. Without groups such as ABATE, and the AMA, the safety police would be all over us!!

 

[jogitu]

UPDATE: long story short another email sent another one back to me quoting only this " I guess you are on of those safety Nazis". Yup, got me.

ABATE - American bikers aimed towards education or Ahole bikers aimed towards extinction?

 

[glenfiddich]

Save your breath. You can never win arguments with those unencumbered by logic.

 

[john1691]

I wear my helmet to make listening to music possible, and to keep bugs off my teeth, I had no idea it might save my life.......

But here in PA it is my choice. I choose safety. While I'm not handsome, I like the way I look, and sliding down the road on my face would probably change that. Not to mention I'm thinking it would have to hurt, and I've figured out I don't really like pain. Not to mention, being (almost) 45 years old, it takes longer to heal than when I was a teenager. So I joke around with the pirate crowd about my music and bugs, I am ATGATT, and then I look their shorts/T-shirt/flip flop wearing wife/girfriend in the eye and ask if they've ever had a skin graft, or seen some one's face after hitting the pavement? And doesn't their husband/boyfriend like the way they look? Then smile and say, "but it's your choice to wear what you want".

 

[henzilla]

Going to move this over to Campfire...

Just Ridin' is more for riding stories than opinions on legislative lobbying groups pros and cons.

Just Ridin'
Wind in your face, your knees squeezing the tank and your hands on the controls. In this forum we don't want to talk about gear or wrenching, camping or rallying, here we are all about Just ridin'....

And a short reminder to keep things non- political and to play nice as everyones opinion is as important to them as yours is to you.

Carry on...

 

[bunkyone]

Hey all: This issue has nothing to do with whats smart, whats safe, whats good for the motorcycle community as a whole. It's about individual choice. Are you safer wearing all the gear, all the time? Yes you are. Do you want the government TELLING you you have to wear the gear? I will wager that most of you don't!! ABATE and the AMA are fighting to keep the motorcyclist out of the clutches of those who would limit what we see as our freedom. The freedom to make up our own minds, the freedom to decide for ourselves. I'm sorry that some folks here don't seem to realize that...

 

[osbornk]

I think I should wear a helmet when I ride, and I do. You have made a good choice too.

The assertion that our wallets are at risk because of increased insurance premiums for helmetless riders can't be substantiated. The "cost to society" claimed as a burden has no verifiable cost data behind it either.

Yes, head injuries have a cost, but the transfer of this cost to helmet wearing riders is an assumption, that fails the actual test.

Case in point:

I live in NJ, and helmet law state, and I have 2 non-mandatory states next to me (PA, and DE) and my NJ bike insurance is 2 times the cost of comparable policies in PA, or DE. If the "helmetless rider as insurance cost parasite" assertion were true those PA and DE riders would have higher premiums than me. They pay 50% of what I pay.

That dog does not hunt.

We all understand that we don't like to see needless injury and death, and we are compassionate in this regard.

Sometimes we just have to find peace with the fact that Life itself is a sexually tranmitted disease, and it's terminal.

The insurance company I retired from does not sell auto insurance for the same reasons your motorcycle insurance is expensive in NJ. It is because of the insurance and liability laws as well as the widespread fraud. They don't write in Lousiana for the same reason.

 

[jogitu]

Hey all: This issue has nothing to do with whats smart, whats safe, whats good for the motorcycle community as a whole. It's about individual choice. Are you safer wearing all the gear, all the time? Yes you are. Do you want the government TELLING you you have to wear the gear? I will wager that most of you don't!! ABATE and the AMA are fighting to keep the motorcyclist out of the clutches of those who would limit what we see as our freedom. The freedom to make up our own minds, the freedom to decide for ourselves. I'm sorry that some folks here don't seem to realize that...

ABATE and AMA are fighting for money. They are appealing to the mass of cruiser riders. If they would just say that then I would be ok with their position. Perhaps I got off message here because I am pro helmet law. My main beef is that they claim to be there to promote safety. They simply are not. It makes the perception of them as an organization look better when they spread the message they are for safety. You simply cannot say that and then push for helmet choice. There is no argument you can make how helmet choice is safer. I would argue they are doing more harm than good. ABATE and AMA are actually signing the death certificates for many a rider. They are hiding behind a message they do not believe in as a Trojan horse. My apology for not being clearer and mixing messages but this is more about their hypocrisy than their push for helmet choice.

 

[MOTOR31]

My position on the helmet issue is simple. If you are old enough to be considered an adult in this country you are old enough to be as stupid with your own life as you want to be. Even when I was working I never told an adult that his / her head was worth the price of a helmet. If they did not feel it was, who was I to tell them it was. I feel it is simply letting a bit of Darwinism back into today's society. The gene pool can use some occasional cleaning.

I do not like loud pipes. I don't care if you ride a big bike, small bike or a scooter, just ride. It's your money. I DO care if you feel you have the right to disturb my peace by taking the mufflers off because you are so juvenile you need to draw attention to yourself just because you ride a bike. The loud pipe crowd has done all riders a disservice by taking folks who didn't care if we rode and turned them against all bike riders because they lump us all together. If you can't live without noise, pipe it into your own ears and leave mine alone. I'm sure some enterprising person can make an "app" to have loud motor noise played into your ear phones and you can feel all warm and fuzzy with the noise.

 

[Bud]

I don't see any difference between mandatory helmet laws and mandatory seat belt laws.

The vast majority of drivers buckle up without screaming about the loss of their "right" to drive.

Driving and riding bikes are not "rights", but are privileges, which can be revoked by those who issue a license.

Just say'n......

BTW This thread will not change one members mind on this issue. I know that, you know that. At best we can agree to disagree.

Just like "loud pipes save lives". If that were true, shouldn't they point forwards and shouldn't loud pipes be required on all new bikes?

 

[40427]

I thought Michigan had all ready repealed the helmet law ??
When i was up there in July , I saw many riders without helmets. ??

I choose to wear a helmet all the time and most of the gear most of the time myself, but that's my choice.
Do not like having anyone tell me how to dress for anything at any time.

As for ABATE, my own interactions with them over the years kind of turned me off. I did not think they put their best foot forward in Washington to represent the motorcycle community.
As a Charter Life Member of the AMA , I always thought they ( AMA)did a better job than ABATE to represent our interests.
Now i am not too sure about either of them.

 

[sjbmw]

"ABATE is a non-profit organization dedicated to preserving the overall rights and promoting the safe operating practices of all Michigan motorcyclists.

ABATE of Michigan is a freedom of choice organization. Believing that the rider is best able to decide the type of motorcycle to ride, and the type and extent of safety gear worn. Our primary objective is to monitor motorcycle related legislation and encourage all members to become politically involved."

As a AMA member, and being from the home of the weazel do gooder politician (NJ) that has erased ORV riding in NJ, it is safe to say that many, many politicians in power do not ride motorcycles, and would rather no one else did either.
As they say, give them an inch.

Those that are seeing their off road vehicle trails vanish, and the execution of "motorcycle only" checkpoints, and the establishment of "motorcycle free" communities (to name a few) the need for more "freedom minded organizations" is at a premium, even if we disagree internally on all the details.

As a motorcycle rider, I only know of 2 motorcycle organizations that do try to keep me informed. AMA, and ABATE. I am not an ABATE member but it might be time to check into their NJ chapter.

Live a year in NJ, and then go back to your home state and then decide if politicians, once they have gained the power they have here, have your "safety" at heart.

2 orgs vs. the dozens of Corporations and NGO's that are lobbying against recreational combustion engine based activites. To throw one away over a snafu is self defeating.

Perhaps when they declare the motorcycle itself too dangerous in any form, will those that think personal decisions are best left up to government might be awakened.

To those that think this is a dramatic accessment, with the AMA and ABATE battling so many motorcycle specific laws on so many fronts (federal, state, local) where does one think this is leading?

I'll take ABATE and the helmet stuff vs. "no one on the watch".

 

[jogitu]

With ABATE at the helm why do you think they are motorcycle checkpoints and motorcycle free communities? LOUD PIPES, DRUNK BIKERS ON POKER RUNS, HELMET LESS GAY PIRATES, these are the reasons for the backlash. The very behavior that is the inspiration for anti motorcycle laws or movements are those endorsed by the likes of ABATE. It is real simple, ACT LIKE A 1% THEN DON"T BE SHOCKED WHEN TREATED LIKE A 1%. ABATE is not doing anybody any favors endorsing this idiocy. To think they are is short sighted. In the long run they do more harm than good. I see the looks I get when I jump off my 2010 RT wearing my brown Firstgear Rainer Jacket and TPG pants with wife wearing same. I see the "oh my gosh bikers" look because I get lumped in with all the Sons of Anarchy wannabes. These type of organizations do more harm than good. It is clear they represent the views of the cruiser crowd and more to the point Harley Davidson. They are not promoting safety but a lifestyle, the biker lifestyle. ABATE is free to do what they want they just need to be honest and drop the promote safety speech. Just say what they are. The Hells Angels have a right to exist as well they just don't act like they are there to promote safety. The Hells Angels have better credibility.