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Track day thoughts and learnings from a complete noob

mjfink420

Active member
Thinking of a track day? Well, ask someone who's been to 50 of them, they'll have better advice! However, after doing something many times, you may forget the things that you wanted to know/were worried about the first time. So, here is is, the noob's view of a track day.

This is going to be a couple of longer posts, a lot to talk about, but, let's start with the elephant in the room and the topic that's likely to be controversial, safety.

First, I think we need to define terms. I think when many hear "safety" they are thinking about dying in a motorcycle accident. If that's your definition, a track day is statistically safer than riding on the street. There are ambulances there (at least 4 that I saw at the event yesterday) standing by, there's nothing to hit if you run off, there's a lot of grass on either side to slide into. Within a few laps, it was obvious to me, you'd have to really "try" to die on a track. Yes, it does happen, but it's newsworthy when it does; people die every day on the street riding, I wouldn't be surprised to hear there were exactly 0 track day (differentiated from racing, that's a different ball of wax) deaths last year.

It's a combination of things, the gear, the runoff areas, the lack of stuff to hit that doesn't move, the lack of traffic/distracted drivers. It's also the lack of time; if you rode every session at the track day I recently attended, you'd have ~2 hours riding. Some of us who tour, 2 hours is "getting warmed up", see you in 6-8 hours. So there's a lot more exposure and a lot more death inducing hazards on the street; coupled with millions of motorcycle riders (vs a MUCH smaller number of track day riders). The data on this is pretty abundant and clear, it is almost certainly safer than street riding for risk of death, likely by a large margin.

A huge focus on dying, of course, does make sense. However, we need to expand the aperture here a bit because, believe it or not, even with the scary (20-40X more dangerous than a car, etc) stats, you're pretty darn unlikely to die on the street on a motorcycle. Yes, it happens, I hear about it (and I believe we recently lost a fellow BMW rider) but, statistically speaking, it's unlikely. A good way to look at the risk is to view it by "million miles traveled". In 2021, there were around 500 injuries per 100 million mile traveled on a motorcycle; death, around 30 deaths per 100 million miles. Those numbers, while not "good" compared to a car, aren't awful either. You'd need to ride 3.3 million miles to get to a 50/50 chance of dying (although I'd argue, if you make it to 1 million, you're probably going to be fine!). And remember gear, a lot of those deaths are no helmet/no gear deaths where you can move the odds significantly in your favor.

So, let's look at my track day. Nobody died. One person was injured and needed a ride in the ambulance (heard from others it was a broken bone, nothing life changing). I saw 3 bikes go down and heard another went down (I didn't see it, so not counting it). Let's say there were 100 riders there (ease of math and, IMHO, a reasonable estimate). That's 3% going down across 2 hours of riding. Again, referring back a few paragraphs, "define safety". Risk of dying is low on a track (but it's also low on the street), risk of going for a tumble is, however, ludicrously higher. Now, one thing, this is almost entirely in your control, I didn't see any riding that I considered "dangerous" (stuffing another rider, pushing them off the track, etc), it's you, your skills (or lack thereof in my case) and your wrist that determine if you go down or not. But I do think the advice "Take it to the track" is thrown around liberally as a way to be "safe" and while I really enjoyed doing it, I think that advice is a bit myopic. You're increasing safety from a catastrophic outcome, no question, but that outcome was already pretty unlikely. In its place, your wildly increasing the likelihood of a bad outcome (damaged bike, broken bones, etc).

Now, a quick counterpoint here, if you're going to ride on the street like you do on the track, yeah, FOR SURE the track is a safer place to do it. It's not even a question honestly. I've never ridden before like I did yesterday, never even in that zipcode on the street.

For those that remember, a big part of the drive to the track was a speeding ticket I got a few months back and one of the reasons I wanted to get to a track was to find out if I was riding close to my limits and didn't realize it. That question has been answered with absolute certainty; no, I was nowhere near my limits. And my limits, are laughably low compared to others on the track, I'm not holding myself up as a "good" rider, I'm not, and that was made abundantly clear when I was let loose on a track with people who really do know how to ride at speed. But even with my very modest level of skill, I'm nowhere near my limits (or the limits of the tire/machine) in any riding I've ever done on the street. I would NEVER ride like I did on the track on street, and I was on the "slow" side of average for the "never been on track" group (and ludicrously slow compared to the beginner group)!

So, is it "safe"? It really depends what you're trying to avoid. Speeding ticket? :) Infinite improvement in safety! Death? Large improvement in safety. Taking a tumble with your motorcycle, wrecking your motorcycle, breaking bones? If that's your definition of "safe" then, no, I'd argue it's a massive increase in risk compared to the street. For that massive increase in risk, you get to experience something that's pretty amazing and unique, and I can see how the track can massively and rapidly increase your skill with a motorcycle which, in turn, increases your safety on the street (because you're a more competent rider). I wouldn't say I got the "bug" instantly, but I'm absolutely going to do more track riding, it was fun, educational, and I'm 100% sure will make me a better rider on the street. But I also feel like going into a track day you should recognize (and attempt to mitigate, as much as possible) that this is an activity that trades one risk (death) for a big increase in other risks (damaged bike/broken bones/etc).

Finally, wrapping this post up, for anyone curious, here's some video I shot. The beginning is when we had the instructor, the 2nd part is when we were "released" to ride with the rest of the novice riders. This is laughably dog slow, but I wanted to get some footage so I can see how I improve but also to help others who might be considering it to see what to expect. I won't go so far as to say "You have to do it!!", it's a commitment, but I will say, speaking for myself, I'm glad others suggested it and I'll be doing it again!

This event was with EvolveGT, and the instructor led portion was their "GT1 class", required for those new to the track. I found it to be a good introduction for a competent and comfortable street rider; it's is NOT a beginner "learn to ride" class, they assume that you're very comfortable operating a motorcycle in street conditions. I'd say anything under 10K street miles, you should probably look for a more beginner focused course. Oh, and the track is CMP (Carolina Motorsports Park). Having nothing to compare it to, seemed great to me, nice people, clean facility, well organized, plenty of places to setup a tent/canopy.. The only downside of CMP, it's a bear to get there; in the middle of nowhere and not really near a highway, be a pain if towing a big trailer or RV because most of the roads are pretty poor around the park.

 
Next up.. How to get there? If you have a pickup truck; that's the option I went with and it worked out well. Thread with details:

If you're starting from 0, I'd rate the options in the following order:

1) Toy hauler RV. You have a bedroom, bathroom, AC, setup it dead simple, bike it completely protected. Very expensive option if you have no other use for it! Also, towing a toy hauler requires some thought about your route to get to some of the parks (CMP being a perfect example!). Toy haulers are close to the size of semi, you don't want to be on a two lane rural road with no shoulder if you can avoid it! Huge bonus that you can stay right at the track in comfort and have AC between sessions.

2) Enclosed trailer. Bike is protected, you can setup with all your stuff in the trailer, pretty easy to tow. Downside is no place to sleep (if your going to stay at the track) and no AC. Easy load/unload (low deck height).

3) Pickup truck bed. No trailer behind you, very little additional cost if you already have a pickup (~500 bucks for the ramps I wound up with). Multipurpose if you need to take your bike to the dealer and/or you blow out tires regularly and need to be rescued (ahem, not sure who that would be??). Highest level of load/unload difficulty, practice/get enough ramp area that you feel comfortable!

4) Open trailer. Can carry a lot of stuff, but now you're towing again and the bike is in the open. Very easy to load/unload though (low deck height).

5) Ride to the track. I did consider this, but, man, I'm glad I didn't. If you have a "support car" (wife/husband), this would be fine, but I can't imagine riding to the track, having no shade, no clothes to change into, no place to sit down.. If you're going to do it this way, definitely rent a garage bay so at least you have some place to go that's shady! Maybe wear a backpack with some supplies? IDK, maybe 20 year old me would have done this, but if you have any other options, I'd strongly consider not doing this. One caveat, if the track is really close by and you have someone meeting you there who can bring a canopy, water, tools, etc, this option becomes a lot more realistic. Going solo (like I did)? No way, at least not for me (and ~90 miles to the track!).
 
What to bring with you?

Here's the list I used, I didn't feel like I was missing anything. If I had a spot with electric, I probably would have paid someone 500 bucks to buy their 20 dollar Walmart fan; if you're going in the summer and have electric at your spot, bring a fan (assuming you don't have an RV). Quite a few people had them and I was seriously jealous!

Gear list:

Track Suit (1 piece is best and gets you on any track, 2 piece is more comfortable but somewhat less protective and some tracks have issues with them)
Track Gloves (full gauntlet armored gloves)
Race Helmet (if you're not wearing a modular and your helmet it newer, it's probably fine. Modulars are a "no go" for all 3 of the orgs that run motorcycles in my area)
Tinted visor (if your helmet doesn't have an integrated sunshade, you will absolutely want to dark tinted visor. No trees, no shade on the track, if it's sunny it's pretty bliding)
Long Socks
Long underwear (or an undersuit, I just got cheap long underwear and they worked fine)
Chairs (I brought 2 and glad I did even though I was solo, was nice to have a place to stage out the suit/gear before putting it on)
Canopy (Absolutely must have if you're not going to rent a garage/don't have an RV. My canopy cost less than a single garage rental, it's already paid for itself)
Track stand (I brought this but didn't use it. It's a nice to have if you need to remove a tire, but not a must have)
Airbag (Personal decision.. I wore mine, but seemed about 50/50. A lot of the more serious guys had them in their suit, that would be a real nice to have, but being new, I just used my Tech Air 5 under my suit.. Not super comfortable, but nothing about those suits is)
Tool bag (Electrical tape, painters tape, full set of allen/hex keys, couple of screwdrivers, axle tool, screw driver, small socket set, zip ties, chain lube, Chanellocks; just a basic set to be able to handle removing your tires, tightening down anything that comes loose, etc).
Extra qt of oil (I didn't have this, but a bunch of the guys told me I should, bikes apparently burn more oil when pushed hard, good to have a little to add if necessary)

Cooler with WATER. Lots and lots of water!
Camera, it was fun taking pictures between sessions until it got too hot, then I just hid under the canopy.
Something to eat; I barely ate anything yesterday, but it was nice to have something available and not need to trek over to the food stand in a track suit!
 
Glad you had a good time!:clap:clap:clap

Was there any classroom instruction? I ask because, in your video, there does not appear to be much attention to apexes/proper line. I noticed they had cones at most of the apexes, but no one (including the instructor) was emphasizing them. Maybe that came later? :dunno



:dance :dance :dance
 
Glad you had a good time!:clap:clap:clap

Was there any classroom instruction? I ask because, in your video, there does not appear to be much attention to apexes/proper line. I noticed they had cones at most of the apexes, but no one (including the instructor) was emphasizing them. Maybe that came later? :dunno



:dance :dance :dance

I think we spent about 2-3 hours in the classroom. Most of it was around the "don't die" part of "Go fast, don't die". :) But, yes, he did talk about the apex, race lines and track positioning and, on one of the runs with him (I only filmed 2 times out of the ~6 on the track), he was pointing out the apex of each turn and trying to get us on the proper race line.

Honestly, for a cost of "free" (included when you're a new rider with EvolveGT, no additional cost beyond the price of the track day itself) I really can't complain. He was really good, got us all out there to have a good time and spent a lot of time on the super important stuff (that was new to me too), entering/exiting the track, where you can/cannot pass (as a beginner), stuff like that. They do have more advanced training available as well, but, IMHO, the class they sent us through was a good "intro to track" as long as you were already an experienced rider. If not, as mentioned before, you should look elsewhere, the pace goes from "I'm bored" to "OK then, holy smokes" very quickly.
 
Glad you had a good time!:clap:clap:clap

Was there any classroom instruction? I ask because, in your video, there does not appear to be much attention to apexes/proper line. I noticed they had cones at most of the apexes, but no one (including the instructor) was emphasizing them. Maybe that came later? :dunno



:dance :dance :dance
Yeah. I was going to say the same thing. Kind of all over the place with regard to the apex and braking.

What do you think you learned that day, OP?

Have you ever read Twist of the Wrist by Keith Code? I think it'd help give you a framework of concepts to practice on your next day. :thumb
 
Yeah. I was going to say the same thing. Kind of all over the place with regard to the apex and braking.

What do you think you learned that day, OP?

Have you ever read Twist of the Wrist by Keith Code? I think it'd help give you a framework of concepts to practice on your next day. :thumb

All over the place? Might be an understatement; I'm glad I shot a bit of video because it's a heck of a lot more obvious looking at it from the comfort of an easy chair where I messed things up (well, everywhere, but let's start with areas I really messed them up). It's amazing how obvious the lines are looking at the video, but, coming at you at high speed, not nearly as easy to see.

What did I learn yesterday? Well, the first thing, which was what started the whole adventure, was to figure out where my limits are (I'm not even going to say the bike/tire limits, I know that was not at ALL an issue. I work in IT, we have a funny saying that the error is somewhere between the computer and the back off the chair (IE, the user). Same applies here, the limit is somewhere between the throttle and the seat!). I feel like that was very much "mission accomplished". That ticket spooked me, not because of the cost or the possible "go to jail", but because I was double the speed limit in a curve. Was I riding on the edge of what the bike/tire could take? Or what I could control? That question has been answered for me; I was so far beyond what I've ever even thought about doing on the street yesterday it helped me get an understanding of what's possible (for me). Some of this absolutely would translate to an emergency situation on the street, misjudge a corner, something pops in front of you, the "random" that is street riding, I think I feel a little better knowing what's "doable" (for me) if things went sideways.

Also, on a somewhat personal note, a lot of yesterday was about controlling and overcoming fear. I think I may have mentioned this in another thread, but I'm an Aspie (shocker, Aspie in IT.. I know, I am the stereotype). I'm also getting to advanced middle age (almost 50). The number of times I'm going to do something new to me in a big group of people I don't know where I know I'm going to be pretty poor at it is small. This may be my last, who knows, but this kind of thing is SUPER hard for me. Once I know what I'm doing, even if I'm not good at it, no problem. I'd happily meet up with any of the members here and go for a fun run down a twisty road anywhere and have no worries at all. I'm not "good" at street riding, but I'm competent, I'm not going to drop the bike on myself, I'm not going to yeet myself into space because I can't control the throttle, I know what I'm doing; many here know more and are better, but I'm not an embarrassment. Hoping I can make the "Tame the Tail" for me next year actually!

Now that the "raw fear" part is over, I hope to do enough of this type of riding be "average" in the novice group. Know the lines, hit the right braking zones, roll on/off the power at the right times. I'd also LOVE to fix my body positioning because it's awful! Between racing dirt bikes (where you counterlean), 10's of thousands of street miles with the MSF "directive" (do not lean off the bike!), and now, trying to learn the actual "right" positioning for higher speed riding, I'm seriously messed up. I honestly want to pay a coach to spend a few hours with me, bike on a stand, and just say "turn right/left/straight" and just keep repositioning me until I start to internalize what I should be doing when I'm trying to turn a street bike at pace. Not just upper body, but also my feet (although I do feel that's getting better, it's still not good).

I have read Twist of the Wrist. It's a pretty easy read, so now that I've actually been on a track, I feel like I'd get more out of it now and should re-read it. The "reading lines" stuff just didn't resonate with me because I'd never had to do it before, street pace doesn't require "lines", just position for safety and be ready to adjust should something happen.
 
Thinking of a track day? Well, ask someone who's been to 50 of them, they'll have better advice! However, after doing something many times, you may forget the things that you wanted to know/were worried about the first time. So, here is is, the noob's view of a track day.

This is going to be a couple of longer posts, a lot to talk about, but, let's start with the elephant in the room and the topic that's likely to be controversial, safety.

First, I think we need to define terms. I think when many hear "safety" they are thinking about dying in a motorcycle accident. If that's your definition, a track day is statistically safer than riding on the street. There are ambulances there (at least 4 that I saw at the event yesterday) standing by, there's nothing to hit if you run off, there's a lot of grass on either side to slide into. Within a few laps, it was obvious to me, you'd have to really "try" to die on a track. Yes, it does happen, but it's newsworthy when it does; people die every day on the street riding, I wouldn't be surprised to hear there were exactly 0 track day (differentiated from racing, that's a different ball of wax) deaths last year.

It's a combination of things, the gear, the runoff areas, the lack of stuff to hit that doesn't move, the lack of traffic/distracted drivers. It's also the lack of time; if you rode every session at the track day I recently attended, you'd have ~2 hours riding. Some of us who tour, 2 hours is "getting warmed up", see you in 6-8 hours. So there's a lot more exposure and a lot more death inducing hazards on the street; coupled with millions of motorcycle riders (vs a MUCH smaller number of track day riders). The data on this is pretty abundant and clear, it is almost certainly safer than street riding for risk of death, likely by a large margin.

A huge focus on dying, of course, does make sense. However, we need to expand the aperture here a bit because, believe it or not, even with the scary (20-40X more dangerous than a car, etc) stats, you're pretty darn unlikely to die on the street on a motorcycle. Yes, it happens, I hear about it (and I believe we recently lost a fellow BMW rider) but, statistically speaking, it's unlikely. A good way to look at the risk is to view it by "million miles traveled". In 2021, there were around 500 injuries per 100 million mile traveled on a motorcycle; death, around 30 deaths per 100 million miles. Those numbers, while not "good" compared to a car, aren't awful either. You'd need to ride 3.3 million miles to get to a 50/50 chance of dying (although I'd argue, if you make it to 1 million, you're probably going to be fine!). And remember gear, a lot of those deaths are no helmet/no gear deaths where you can move the odds significantly in your favor.

So, let's look at my track day. Nobody died. One person was injured and needed a ride in the ambulance (heard from others it was a broken bone, nothing life changing). I saw 3 bikes go down and heard another went down (I didn't see it, so not counting it). Let's say there were 100 riders there (ease of math and, IMHO, a reasonable estimate). That's 3% going down across 2 hours of riding. Again, referring back a few paragraphs, "define safety". Risk of dying is low on a track (but it's also low on the street), risk of going for a tumble is, however, ludicrously higher. Now, one thing, this is almost entirely in your control, I didn't see any riding that I considered "dangerous" (stuffing another rider, pushing them off the track, etc), it's you, your skills (or lack thereof in my case) and your wrist that determine if you go down or not. But I do think the advice "Take it to the track" is thrown around liberally as a way to be "safe" and while I really enjoyed doing it, I think that advice is a bit myopic. You're increasing safety from a catastrophic outcome, no question, but that outcome was already pretty unlikely. In its place, your wildly increasing the likelihood of a bad outcome (damaged bike, broken bones, etc).

Now, a quick counterpoint here, if you're going to ride on the street like you do on the track, yeah, FOR SURE the track is a safer place to do it. It's not even a question honestly. I've never ridden before like I did yesterday, never even in that zipcode on the street.

For those that remember, a big part of the drive to the track was a speeding ticket I got a few months back and one of the reasons I wanted to get to a track was to find out if I was riding close to my limits and didn't realize it. That question has been answered with absolute certainty; no, I was nowhere near my limits. And my limits, are laughably low compared to others on the track, I'm not holding myself up as a "good" rider, I'm not, and that was made abundantly clear when I was let loose on a track with people who really do know how to ride at speed. But even with my very modest level of skill, I'm nowhere near my limits (or the limits of the tire/machine) in any riding I've ever done on the street. I would NEVER ride like I did on the track on street, and I was on the "slow" side of average for the "never been on track" group (and ludicrously slow compared to the beginner group)!

So, is it "safe"? It really depends what you're trying to avoid. Speeding ticket? :) Infinite improvement in safety! Death? Large improvement in safety. Taking a tumble with your motorcycle, wrecking your motorcycle, breaking bones? If that's your definition of "safe" then, no, I'd argue it's a massive increase in risk compared to the street. For that massive increase in risk, you get to experience something that's pretty amazing and unique, and I can see how the track can massively and rapidly increase your skill with a motorcycle which, in turn, increases your safety on the street (because you're a more competent rider). I wouldn't say I got the "bug" instantly, but I'm absolutely going to do more track riding, it was fun, educational, and I'm 100% sure will make me a better rider on the street. But I also feel like going into a track day you should recognize (and attempt to mitigate, as much as possible) that this is an activity that trades one risk (death) for a big increase in other risks (damaged bike/broken bones/etc).

Finally, wrapping this post up, for anyone curious, here's some video I shot. The beginning is when we had the instructor, the 2nd part is when we were "released" to ride with the rest of the novice riders. This is laughably dog slow, but I wanted to get some footage so I can see how I improve but also to help others who might be considering it to see what to expect. I won't go so far as to say "You have to do it!!", it's a commitment, but I will say, speaking for myself, I'm glad others suggested it and I'll be doing it again!

This event was with EvolveGT, and the instructor led portion was their "GT1 class", required for those new to the track. I found it to be a good introduction for a competent and comfortable street rider; it's is NOT a beginner "learn to ride" class, they assume that you're very comfortable operating a motorcycle in street conditions. I'd say anything under 10K street miles, you should probably look for a more beginner focused course. Oh, and the track is CMP (Carolina Motorsports Park). Having nothing to compare it to, seemed great to me, nice people, clean facility, well organized, plenty of places to setup a tent/canopy.. The only downside of CMP, it's a bear to get there; in the middle of nowhere and not really near a highway, be a pain if towing a big trailer or RV because most of the roads are pretty poor around the park.

growing up on a neighborhood dirt track produced great skills for everyone involved, although I have 30+ fractures,
among many contusions, broken ankles would be my only track injuries,
after over 55 years of riding 30+ fractures translates to less than 2/year,
It is not the fear of death that I focus on, it is the fear of not living,
when I do dangerous things I never risk thinking about destruction,
if you have the resources to go to the track I recommend it
 
a recent local tragedy involving a young man begging parents for a bike would die on the way home from picking up his new motorcycle, 8 miles from his home,
anything can happen at anytime to anyone, anywhere, let’s all think about living
 
What do you think you learned that day, OP?
I THINK he might have meant “what did they TEACH you? (other than don’t kill yourself).

It's amazing how obvious the lines are looking at the video, but, coming at you at high speed, not nearly as easy to see.

If they were letting you go faster BEFORE you were capable of maintaining the proper line, they were doing you no favors! You learn the basics (form and line) FIRST, THEN slowly pickup the pace. Not go fast and try to learn the line and form.
What did I learn yesterday? Well, the first thing, which was what started the whole adventure, was to figure out where my limits are (I'm not even going to say the bike/tire limits, I know that was not at ALL an issue. I work in IT, we have a funny saying that the error is somewhere between the computer and the back off the chair (IE, the user). Same applies here, the limit is somewhere between the throttle and the seat!). I feel like that was very much "mission accomplished". That ticket spooked me, not because of the cost or the possible "go to jail", but because I was double the speed limit in a curve. Was I riding on the edge of what the bike/tire could take? Or what I could control? That question has been answered for me; I was so far beyond what I've ever even thought about doing on the street yesterday it helped me get an understanding of what's possible (for me). Some of this absolutely would translate to an emergency situation on the street, misjudge a corner, something pops in front of you, the "random" that is street riding, I think I feel a little better knowing what's "doable" (for me) if things went sideways.


Also, on a somewhat personal note, a lot of yesterday was about controlling and overcoming fear. I think I may have mentioned this in another thread, but I'm an Aspie (shocker, Aspie in IT.. I know, I am the stereotype). I'm also getting to advanced middle age (almost 50). The number of times I'm going to do something new to me in a big group of people I don't know where I know I'm going to be pretty poor at it is small. This may be my last, who knows, but this kind of thing is SUPER hard for me. Once I know what I'm doing, even if I'm not good at it, no problem. I'd happily meet up with any of the members here and go for a fun run down a twisty road anywhere and have no worries at all. I'm not "good" at street riding, but I'm competent, I'm not going to drop the bike on myself, I'm not going to yeet myself into space because I can't control the throttle, I know what I'm doing; many here know more and are better, but I'm not an embarrassment

Finding your limits usually implies a bad experience. EXTENDING your limits usually implies a learning experience.
Fear should not be part of the learning experience, if it is done right.
. Hoping I can make the "Tame the Tail" for me next year actually!
That would do nothing to increase your skill, just increase the local economy (the whole purpose of all the hype around such a mediocre road).
Now that the "raw fear" part is over, I hope to do enough of this type of riding be "average" in the novice group. Know the lines, hit the right braking zones, roll on/off the power at the right times.

Try signing up for something that offers more “instruction” as opposed to “intro to track day” type environment.
The "reading lines" stuff just didn't resonate with me because I'd never had to do it before, street pace doesn't require "lines", just position for safety and be ready to adjust should something happen.
I don’t even know what to say, other than reread it and find a school that teaches it.



:dance :dance :danceW
 
You know, sometimes I really wonder why I bother. Posts like the above just make me shake my head. And yes, I see your an admin, and I know you can ban me/delete this post. If that's what the penalty is for calling out this type of bullying, so be it.

If they were letting you go faster BEFORE you were capable of maintaining the proper line, they were doing you no favors! You learn the basics (form and line) FIRST, THEN slowly pickup the pace. Not go fast and try to learn the line and form.

I didn't make the rules. If you have issue, it's with EvolveGT; I'm reporting what they did and, given it's a reputable company that has gotten 1000's of people on track; IDK what to say. But you can direct your venom to them; it's not like I told them I was an expert and had at it. I told them I'd never been on track, they gave me the instruction they designed to introduce track riding, and I reported on the experience.

Finding your limits usually implies a bad experience. EXTENDING your limits usually implies a learning experience.
Fear should not be part of the learning experience, if it is done right.

I think the first part is semantics, not an actual disagreement. The 2nd part; OK, again, not my class, not my curriculum, not my decision as to how they set it up. And honestly, if you're not at least a little scared the first time you roll onto a hot track, or the first time you throw your leg over a motorcycle, well, good for you I guess, but I was scared each time I took a step further into the world of motorcycles. First time on a bike, first time riding a dirt bike hard, first time on a dirt track (with good reason, I'd ridden for years and was pretty good on a dirt bike, when I hit the track, that's when I started getting hurt), first time on the street. All were experiences that caused levels of fear. Should it be nothing but a "live through it" experience, no, it shouldn't (and wasn't). But was I scared? Yes, I was, and I don't see any way anyone would get on a track for the first time and not have a similar feeling (unless you've been riding like a complete hooligan on the street, then I guess maybe you're "ready" for the track?).

That would do nothing to increase your skill, just increase the local economy (the whole purpose of all the hype around such a mediocre road).

OK, but I never said a thing about increasing my skill on a bike at the Tail. If you re-read it, I was talking about my fear of groups of people where I'm awful at the activity, a fear that I don't have for the TTOD event because I feel I'm a competent street rider. As for mediocre road; sure, it's overhyped, but it is a fun ride and the atmosphere surrounding it is pretty unique. Not many places one can go on a public street and watch bikes and supercars roll by one after another at pace.

I don’t even know what to say, other than reread it and find a school that teaches it.

Don't know what to say to what? That I didn't/don't know how to read lines on a track because I've spent a grand total of ~2.5 hours on one and guess I'm not a "natural"? I already said I wanted to re-read the book because now what they were talking about makes more sense. Or that you don't need "lines" on the street? If it's the 2nd, I stand by that, if you're trying to find the apex or a line other than "The safe way around this corner" on the street, you're probably doing it wrong. The little they talked about lines was entirely new to me, apologies for not just "knowing" it after a single read of Twist of the Wrist and a few hours in class/on track.

I suspect this will earn me the banhammer. It has been fun talking with most of you and I appreciate the help; hope I contributed something in my time here, and maybe we'll get to meet up and ride a mediocre road together someday!!
 
Sorry that you took the comments the way you did. I was trying to emphasize the school type of track experience over the open track type of experience that you seem to have gotten. Yes, based on your comments I am criticizing Evolve (not you) as not being the appropriate curriculum for you (based on all your comments over the last many weeks).

If you wish, I will delete this and the previous two posts (#11,12, and 13).
 
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When the topic of track days came up in an earlier thread I tried to draw a significant distinction between a "track day" and a "track school" or on-track riding school. I think the current thread is about a somewhat hybrid situation where there is a little bit of instruction in a track day, but falling short of a true on-track school.

I saw for example, the rolling traffic cone rookies being led around the track at the same time that a group of much faster riders zoomed past. This would have never happened at a true on-track school like CLASS or STAR or California Superbike School. At true schools one group is in the classroom while another group is on the track.

My experience at several schools (RATS, CLASS, STAR) was classroom instruction followed by on-track practice followed by the next classroom topic and another on track session, and so on for 4 or 5 classroom sessions followed by on-track sessions. Start with body position on the bike. Follow that with proper line in curves or corners. Follow that with gearing and speed control. Follow that with braking and braking exercises. Each topic building on the earlier topics, and earlier practice. Follow that with counter steering and body steering. And so on! During all on-track riding there were instructors following and observing and even flagging riders into the pits to point out errors and provide corrective advice and tips. If I didn't get pulled over for some one-on-one instruction I wasn't trying hard enough to learn new skills.

Based on what I have read about this particular experience I think it was worthwhile in a way, but I think it fell short of a true on-track riding school. It was however better than some track days I've seen where there was almost no instruction and not much adult supervision. That said, if I had a newish bike, new gear, transportation capability, and some time available I would be looking for a true on-track riding school. Of course YMMV.
 
Sorry that you took the comments the way you did. I was trying to emphasize the school type of track experience over the open track type of experience that you seem to have gotten. Yes, based on your comments I am criticizing Evolve (not you) as not being the appropriate curriculum for you (based on all your comments over the fast many weeks).

PRE runs track days and classes in my area as well. EvolveGT also offers more advanced training, so I'd consider both of them. Unfortunately, most of the classes that PGlaves mentioned (CLASS/STAR/Calif Superbike/RATS) aren't in my area. The one that does come here occasionally is CHAMP and I did look into that as an option; it's pretty expensive (2-3K, IIRC) and, I may have mentioned this before, but I have a friend from HS who's an instructor for them. He and I spoke about it, he said it's a very good curriculum, but it's really geared towards racing. Not that I wouldn't learn a ton there, I'm sure I would, but getting into racing was/isn't one of my goals.

Based on what I have read about this particular experience I think it was worthwhile in a way, but I think it fell short of a true on-track riding school. It was however better than some track days I've seen where there was almost no instruction and not much adult supervision. That said, if I had a newish bike, new gear, transportation capability, and some time available I would be looking for a true on-track riding school. Of course YMMV.

Adult supervision.. LOL. ;) The coaches were out in every session, but the supervision (once we got to go on our own, no more traffic cone uniform) was very light. They told us they'd pull us in if they saw something that was unsafe; and I did see them having a chat with someone in the pits (no idea if that person was pulled in or just talking, but I did notice them there once during the afternoon session).

I saw for example, the rolling traffic cone rookies being led around the track at the same time that a group of much faster riders zoomed past.

That happened a lot, especially in the first few sessions (we were going much slower than traffic and the most people were on track, as the day got later (and HOTTER), the track thinned out a lot). All the passes were at some distance, but, yeah, that part was very hard to get used to. It also made me timid to get on the race line; swinging out from the corner, across the track to set up for the next corner with no rear view mirrors and the knowledge that there's traffic back there that's going a lot faster than you was hard. You do that on the street (swing across "lanes" without checking mirrors), you die fast. I started to "trust the process" later in the day, but no rear view mirrors and, what feels like "changing lanes" felt super sketchy. You have to trust that the guy who's coming up behind you wants to live to see Monday as much as you do. ;)

The one thing I really need to think about now is answering the question, "To what end". As I mentioned, I enjoyed the track day, felt like I learned a lot about what the bike can do with me on the back (which is totally different to what the bike can do with a better rider on it) and I do feel like I'd like to do it with some regularity. As mentioned, the original goal that led me into this path was accomplished before lunch; I've never ridden anywhere near that level on the street. My "performance award" that got me here; if that turn was on the track, wouldn't have even had a braking zone, it would have been a full throttle all the way through it. I was nowhere near the limit of myself, the bike, the tires or anything else. And that was really a big part of this; I was trying to find out if what felt "safe" to me on the street (again, let's leave the speed limit/legality discussion out of it; whole different ball of wax) was, in fact, not safe at all because I was about to wash the rear, or couldn't brake hard at that lean angle if something popped up, etc. The answer is "No". Just to be clear, that doesn't make what I did right, and it also doesn't mean I couldn't have died riding that corner (deer/car crossing the lines/etc), but that's the case anytime your on the street, "random" happens, and you need to have a lot of buffer to be ready to deal with it when it does.

So, back to the question, "To what end". And I'm not sure I have an answer to that question right now. Do I want to be a fast "C group" rider? Move to "B" (the "Thunderdome"; the instructor said that's the group you most want to avoid, lots of crashes at pretty substantial speeds)? Make it to "A"? IDK, maybe I do, I'm just not sure I'm willing to get injured to do it, and I'm not sure I can do it without a willingness to come off the bike. Right now I'm kind of the mindset "That was fun, I'd like to do it again", not trying to accomplish a particular goal other than just having fun. That doesn't mean I don't want to get better/more comfortable at it, but right now I'm not sure that getting "validation" (moving up in groups, being the "fast guy", etc) has any value at all to me.

Finally, more generally; while almost all my posts the past few months (getting ready for this) have been about track riding, I'm really much more a long(ish) distance tourer. Yes, I like to go through a corner with some lean angle and play a bit, but honestly, I'm not sure I've ever had the XR as fast as I did the 660 on Sunday. I also know I've never had the lean angle on the XR and nowhere near the level of "aggression" (driving out of corner, braking, etc) in any of my riding to date. And, likely like pretty much all of us, I can ride pretty much any difficult road at far above the speed limit and be well within my abilities.

I guess, in some ways, it kind of feels like two different things. Go to CHAMP, get a coach, get "fast" on the track; but does any of this translate, even a little, to street? I'm not sure it does; I guess maybe if things go totally sideways and you need to make a "track type" maneuver? Or if you want to put a knee down for Killboy on the Dragon to get a photo to hang? But the rest of it? A lot of discussion above about learning the lines, absolutely a fundamental for track, but the track/race lines and the street lines often don't even point in the same direction. You ride track lines on street, IMHO, you're asking for a trip to the hospital (also, there's no need, you'd have to be at several times the speed limit before this would become important). Maybe with more experience I'll start to see it, but, right now, track riding feels about as useful for improving your street skills as learning how to clear a triple on a dirt bike. Yes, they are both motorcycle skills, and I do like being "well rounded", but you can build a triple in your back yard, I can come teach you how to ride it until you're expert level and can do it with your eyes closed; you're not going to be even 1% better on your K touring across the country. It's a totally different skill set, only connected by the fact that there are 2 wheels involved.

Oh, and if anyone can triple a K, please send video. That would make my day! ;)
 
Finished a 2nd track day yesterday. Same track (CMP), different group (N2). A word of advice, if you're going to your first track day, do it with EvolveGT. I really liked the N2 group, so no "shade" their way, but they, even more than EvolveGT are "deep end of the pool". There was no classroom, no "slow laps" in the beginning. You line up with novice and out you go. For a very experienced rider, I'm sure this would be fine, but if you're at ALL worried about riding on track or doing your first track day and would like a slightly less deep pool, EvolveGT is a better choice.

Anyway, had a great time. Much more comfortable this time; felt better on the bike and less "hold on for dear life", more "this is fun, OK, let's look for the right line". Going to take a few weeks off, and then I'm going to see if I can do an upcoming weekend where Evolve is back at my local track and has training available (You vs You is the name of the course, if anyone has an experience, please share!).

Of course, being me, I shot some video. ;) In the 2nd half of the video I split screen between my body position and the track, I'm trying to get more "mobile" and take some of the lean angle out with my body, still need a lot of work. I was challenging myself to see if I could keep TC from engaging, the more I got off the bike, the less TC was kicking in. If you watch the video, when you see the flashing red, that's TC (and a fail for the game I was personally playing with myself). ;)

 
I really liked the N2 group, so no "shade" their way, but they, even more than EvolveGT are "deep end of the pool". There was no classroom, no "slow laps" in the beginning. You line up with novice and out you go. ;)

This illustrates the point I was trying to make about the differences between a "track day" and a "track school".
 
This illustrates the point I was trying to make about the differences between a "track day" and a "track school".

It sure does. EvolveGT seems to be "in the middle" (for beginners), not a "school" but not an "open track day" either (they force all new riders to spend ~3 hours in the classroom/following an instructor during their first day). Really glad I rode with them first! But a lot of the guys who rode N2 this weekend hadn't been on track before (they asked during orientation), so... Guess if you're nervous about it, avoid N2 for your first day; if you're ready to "send it", go N2, you'll hit 130MPH (or, if you bring a 1000, more like 150MPH on the back straight!) before 10AM. ;)

Evolve is hosting again at CMP 7-27/28, I'm going to see if I can make that work for me and, if so, sign up for that date and their next level (You vs You) training.
 
If you have a toy hauler, and want to get body positioning dialed in with a great set of instructors, I'd suggest Total Control's ARC on track series in PA. Yes, it's almost 600 miles north of CMP at PIRC (Pennsylvania International Race Complex), but the ARC courses are fantastic. Very similar to the info in Twist of the Wrist, but once you get to that level of instruction it's all very similar. Total Control focuses a little more on street survival skills and real-world application than racing and race craft than some other schools (like Champ or Superbike), although the lessons learned translate to racing as well - line choice, body position, etc.

Next ARC on track in PA in July 29/30 (Mon/Tue) if you have vacation time.

 
If you have a toy hauler, and want to get body positioning dialed in with a great set of instructors, I'd suggest Total Control's ARC on track series in PA. Yes, it's almost 600 miles north of CMP at PIRC (Pennsylvania International Race Complex), but the ARC courses are fantastic. Very similar to the info in Twist of the Wrist, but once you get to that level of instruction it's all very similar. Total Control focuses a little more on street survival skills and real-world application than racing and race craft than some other schools (like Champ or Superbike), although the lessons learned translate to racing as well - line choice, body position, etc.

Next ARC on track in PA in July 29/30 (Mon/Tue) if you have vacation time.


Thanks for that, and not at all out of the question. I'm kind of thinking "start with the major issues" with a more local instructor that I can get at a local track, then do more "dial in" as I get better with one of the bigger (and more expensive) schools. Not sure that's the right plan; maybe not the case, but I feel like showing up for Champ school (or something similar) at my level of skill right now, I'd be wearing the dunce hat in the back of the classroom. "Dude, you need to learn how to ride, then come back and we can teach you how to ride fast". ;)
 
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