NYC Rider & RT Questions

[scottegilman]

Greetings from NYC. I have been an MOA member since 2000, but have not participated in the forum since 2017. I thought that a reintroduction would be appropriate. I'm a one-bike owner, and over the years, alternated between Moto Guzzis and BMWs. I recently sold my Moto Guzzi 1400 California Touring, and I am considering a R1250RT or a Goldwing Tour (6MT). I have test road both. Although the GW is extremely well balanced and would be okay for urban riding, I believe the RT would be a better fit for me for a mixture of urban, regional and long distance riding. Eighty percent of my riding is solo. For long distance riding, I typically do 500-800 miles a day, and at least 12K/year. The only shortcoming I would have to fix on the RT would be reducing handlebar vibration. During my half hour test ride on the RT, my throttle hand was numb. I do not believe that I was excessively gripping the throttle. Of course, the GW was Mercedes S-class smooth--no numb hands. Years ago, I recall having the same problem test riding a pre-water cooled era RT, and chose instead a K1200LT. I am inclined to go with a lighter, more nimble ride, and that is why I favor the RT over the GW, or considering a GTL or GA. Heavy weight bar ends, Grip Puppies, and perhaps even Helibar risers might help with the RT vibration/weight on the bars. Unfortunatley, there is no place in my area to rent an RT for a day or two for an extended test. If there were, I'd slap on a pair of Grip Puppies to see what that would do. l'll pose my questions in the RT forum.
Scott

 

[mneblett]

I believe I am reasonably well qualified to answer, as I own both a 2021 GL1800 DCT and a 2023 R1250RT.

I believe based on your comments that you will likely chose the RT.

Apologies in advance for the length of what follows!

First question: What is your inseam? If altitude challenged like me, that may make a difference if you are not comfortable with low-speed maneuvers. At ~29.5" inseam, I'm ok with the RT (former MSF instructor), but wouldn't mind it being an inch lower. The lower seat of the Wing is a definite plus.

On the handlebar vibration, while the 1250 is considerably smoother than any BMW boxer (I've had them all, from a /5 through the shift cam), I did note a slight bit of vibration at the grips starting about 4.5-5k rpm. Aftermarket replacement (heavier) bar end weights quelled the vibes sufficiently for me -- YMMV. I have Grip Puppies installed, but only for the larger grip diameter; they don't do much for grip vibrations in my experience.

Long distance travel: The stock seat on the Wing is slightly better, although neither is a Russell. That said, I've done iron butt rides, most recently on 2012 and 2015 R12RTs, without serious complaints. The key for me is a set of Ilium Works highway pegs to permit position shifting as needed (a set of Goldstrike highway pegs are installed on the Wing for the same reason).

The steering on the Wing (steering head angle/trail/wheelbase) is set to be sufficiently "sporty" when on curves, but more stable on long straight roads than the RT. Point it at the horizon, set the cruise control, enjoy the stable, turbine-like smoothness.

Commuting/urban riding: Perhaps surprisingly, I find them both suitable to the task. However, I may be bit unusual, as I spent 30+ years commuting into Wash., D.C. from the Virginia suburbs on touring bikes -- primarily K12LTs, R1100/1150/1200RT, K16GTLs. You cannot legally lane split around here and even when in tight maneuvering situations my bikes were only a couple inches wider than most other commuter bikes, so width was not a problem. The extra weather-protected storage space was perfect for commuting to carry briefcase, suit coat, street shoes, bags of groceries, etc. After I removing and storing my riding gear on the bike in my office garage, riding up in the elevator I looked like any other "suit."

The RT's storage is *much* better. The Wings saddlebags are far too narrow to receive a helmet (or most anything else of even moderate width). The 2021-on Wing trunk is comparable to the RT's, but the RT has a more useable interior shape.

Seating position: I'm 5'7", with relatively short arms and legs. Out of the box, the Wing "handlebar" (a pair of forged parts) is closer to me than the stock RT cast handlebars, resulting in a slightly more upright riding position with the Wing. With a set of Helibar's GL1800 setback plates, the Wing grips are nearly far enough back for me to sit almost absolutely upright, and the plates rotate the grips inward just a hair to what is to me a more natural wrist angle. On the RT, while bar risers helped me to be slightly less leaned forward to the bars, they did not bring the grips back much. As a result, I'm currently in the middle of a project to adapt a set of Helibars K16GTL Horizon adjustable handlebars to my RT to bring the grips closer to me.

If you like an upright seating position (obviously, I very much do), then the Wing's footpegs are in what I would call a "normal" position, not too forward or too rearward. The RT's footpegs are higher and more rear set, increasing knee bend angle. Not great for older knees, but highway pegs are the cure. I *may* later install a set of footpeg lowering brackets, but only if the K16 handlebar project works out.

TLDR: Both bikes' seating positions are serviceable, so it becomes a matter of personal preference.

Maintenance is a wash: Both have their valves sitting immediately at hand at the sides of the engine, and both have air filters that require significant disassembly of the bike to replace (the RT's filter being only marginally easier to get to).

Subjective: If the Wing is so good, why did I add an R1250RT?

For many reasons, I believe the current generation GL1800 is the best touring bike on the market, bar none, with the bonus that it can be ridden surprisingly aggressively whenever desired and is actually a very good commuter bike. But it is heavy.

The RT isn't a lightweight, but it is more than 200 pounds lighter than the Wing -- a difference which starts to show itself during a long day's running around town making multiple stops or day-long running on local mountain roads. If the riding is strictly commuting to/from work, the Wing's extra weight isn't much of an issue (an aside: both bikes are about equal to pick up after a tip-over using the backwards-facing lifting technique, as the Wing's CG is lower than the RT's). However, if my only choice at any given moment is to take the Wing to run around locally (e.g., the RT is apart for service) I don't give the Wing's weight a second thought.

Another "for me" significant difference: The RT makes/delivers its power in a different way that was I missing on the Wing.

I *love* the bottom end torque of the Wing (over 100 ft-lbs off idle!), and with an ECU flash it is even more responsive. The RT is simply "different" in a way I enjoy when I'm not droning down an interstate. The RT makes good low-end torque, and continues to do so with the shift-cam into the upper rpm range. For me, the RT engine has a more "exciting" sound/feel everywhere [[ edit to add: but nowhere near as beautiful as a K16 at full song! ]]. The Wing does not start making more aggressive sounds (which do sound pretty d@mn good) until in the upper rpm range, at which point it is hobbled by a relatively low redline and it is starting to run out of breath due to the low end torque-tuning.

Neither engine is better than the other from a technical perspective, just different subjective experiences.

In my experience, neither the Wing nor the RT is a "better" bike than the other. Indeed, they are more alike in handling and power than one might expect, even with the weight difference, so I do not envy your difficult decision. If I had to sell one today, I do not know which one it would be. If I can get the RT's grips back far enough, it likely would be the Wing to go, due to the lighter weight of the RT as I age (currently nearing 66 and seeing my 70's-80's closer than I like), and the overall more "exciting" feeling of the RT. But the Wing is so good I would be trying to find a way to keep it!

HTH,
Mark

 

[langoptc]

Welcome Scott! I can't imagine the riding getting much more urban than NYC. Looks like Mark has provided you with some great insights. Hope you can post a pic or two regardless of what you end up with.

 

[scottegilman]

Fantastic insight; thank you for the detailed response. Coincidentally, I'm a hair over 5'7" and with a 29 1/2" inseam.

A few additional details: I work from home; city riding will be for occasional errands to locales that are not particuarly convenient to reach by bus or subway--as well as return travel to Manhattan after out of town trips. I try to time my outbound travel early in the morning to avoid heavy congestion. (FYI: A recent study revealed that the average speed of traffic in midtown is 4.5 mph, the slowest in the country.)

During my RT test ride, I found it to be excellent for slow speed maneuvering. And the GW surprisingly good as well.

Nearly all the mileage will be regional day trips (within a few hundred miles of NYC) or long distance travel. I take 2-3 long rides a year (2,500-6,000 miles per trip). I've had good luck with RDL saddles; I may try for the first time, a Lamm custom seat (the shop is in WV). My mileage will increase after transitioning to part-time next year. Retirement will be within 2-3 years. I've never had a stock seat comfortable enough for more than an hour or so.

My wife and I live in a small apartment, and the motorcycle will be kept in a motorcycle-only garage in midtown. I am a dealer-dependent owner. I don't have the space, and more importantly the knowledge to work on the bike. I am adept at plugging tires, ardent about checking tire pressure--and keep track of the oil level--all the simple stuff.

Mark: If you don't mind, I'd like to send you a PM; I would welcome the opportunity to give you a call whatever day/time may fit your schedule. Your insight would be very helpful.

Thank you!
Scott