Lithium Battery Terminology

[kthutchinson]

I sent the following to the editor of the Owner's News but thought I would post it on this forum as well. It's my reply to a product review ny Mark Barnes.

"I usually enjoy Mark Barnes’ contributions to the Owners News, but his review of Motobatt’s hybrid battery in the June 2023 issue needs some correction. Mark seems to have fallen for the mistaken idea that the term lithium-ion refers to a single type of battery, and that lithium iron phosphate (not sulphate) batteries are something completely different. You hear and read news reports that seem to reinforce this idea. However, this is incorrect. The term lithium-ion is an umbrella term referring to any battery using lithium. There are at least a half dozen lithium-ion battery chemistries, of which lithium iron phosphate is one. Each chemistry has it particular advantages and disadvantages, including size, weight, energy density, and thermal runaway potential. A low thermal runaway potential is one of lithium iron phosphate’s principle advantages. While some lithium batteries may be subject to thermal runaway if fully charged, lithium iron phosphate batteries are considered very safe even when fully charged."

 

[etiennelau]

Right on.....great reply to the article.

 

[pauls1150]

He also calls the Absorbed Glass Mat battery an "Advanced" g.m. ...
Maybe the staff should run his "technical" stuff by Wes or Paul G before publishing.

 

[BC1100S]

Thanks for that, Karl and Paul.

 

[pglaves]

...
Maybe the staff should run his "technical" stuff by Wes or Paul G before publishing.

That is actually historic. In 1994 the Owners News regular technical writer stopped writing for the Owners News. Then Editor Don Douglass had published a couple of articles I had written. He asked me if I would be the "Technical Editor" for the Owners News. He wanted me to review technical stuff sent to him for the magazine. After a month or two of this he asked whether I would write a monthly column as well as review other technical submissions. I agreed. Thus began a 20 year - 1995-2015 - run of mostly monthly Benchwrenching columns. I enjoyed it and always thought the effort was worthwhile.

 

[pauls1150]

"Worthwhile" is an understatement - your contributions were/are super-valuable!
I have several of your articles saved in one of my big loose-leaf books in the garage.

 

[globalrider]

He also calls the Absorbed Glass Mat battery an "Advanced"...

As for the AGM battery which has been commonly available for quite a few decades, believe it or not, my first vehicle came factory fitted with one in 2015 in my car and 2016 in my R1200 GS Adventure.

I never replaced a flooded lead acid battery when they failed with an AGM on previous vehicles simply because why change something that works. I'm still on the fence with AGM batteries with both only being 8 years old and 7 years old respectively. If I can get 10+ years out of each, I might change my mind and replace them with the same.

As for these newer batteries, maybe in my next life because I doubt I can get the 2 to 5 times the life that the manufacturers claim.

 

[globalrider]

"I usually enjoy Mark Barnes’ contributions to the Owners News, but his review of Motobatt’s hybrid battery in the June 2023 issue needs some correction.

Now that I have read the article fully, like so many things in life and usually by people that have no background in the subject, talking about CA, CCA and Ah, etc. is kind of unimportant except to the manufacturer who will pick a battery based on real world needs. Manufactuers do not want a "problem bike" and the internet spreads the news fast.

On every one of my 17 motorcycles and 15 cars that I have owned so far, I have never needed to "UP" the battery specifications on any of them and usually replaced the battery on vehicles I have owned long enough, with the same type battery. And I have never had starting issues using factory installed batteries in my motorcycles and cars.

If you are having starting issues, you either have a battery at the end of its life due to age, neglect or poor quality, bad electrical connections or a starter that draws far more current than it should and needs a cleaning and/or a rebuild. Most of my vehicles have a voltage display showing my charge voltages (voltages based on battery type and temperature) at the battery indicating I have a properly functioning alternator.

In the article and on forums, I had to chuckle when I see comments such as "low self-discharge" and "the starter spins much faster with this high tech battery". Well first of all, "low self-discharge" only applies if you have no drains on the battery when the ignition is OFF or the battery is sitting on a store shelf "disconnected". Unfortunately many vehicles when the igintion is OFF have a drain on the battery from the factory or if you added a security system or other "always on" accessories. As for how fast a starter now spins using an overpriced high tech battery, who cares. As long as it starts and my motorcycles start for 9 years on a standard flooded lead acid battery and as much as 16 years in a car using the same battery type.

But you gotta love the advertizing from the manufacturers that sway uninformed buyers.

Now to order up a new YUASA 53030 for my 1990 BMW R100 GS. They have always quit in the 9th year (maybe I should look after them more) and at $161 they are a better deal than a $400 ATX-30. Somehow I highly doubt I'll get (400/161) x 9 years = 22 years out of the ATX-30. The thing I like about factory batteries is they fit and you do not need foam strips to take up gaps and various terminal strips to connect your terminal to. As for weight, I am not worried about an extra 10 pounds; I'll eat less and be healthy.

 

[Visian]

He also calls the Absorbed Glass Mat battery an "Advanced" g.m. ...
Maybe the staff should run his "technical" stuff by Wes or Paul G before publishing.

Maybe we should have a qualified volunteer team of editors, as well as a volunteer team of qualified technical writers to create knowledgeable content for our magazine, web site and outbound social media.

No knock on Mark Barnes, but there is a seriously large amount of technical knowledge within our club that we could take better advantage of.

 

[senseamidmadness]

I never replaced a flooded lead acid battery when they failed with an AGM on previous vehicles simply because why change something that works. I'm still on the fence with AGM batteries with both only being 8 years old and 7 years old respectively. If I can get 10+ years out of each, I might change my mind and replace them with the same.

I'm surprised at your suspicion of AGM as I've never heard of that before! Lead-acid is lead-acid and there's zero difference in the chemistry. The only change is in physical construction.
There's one big advantage that AGM has over old-school FLA batteries which I'm a fan of -- AGM is far less likely to spit sulfuric acid fumes or condensates into your machine. They will only do that if they're overheated or overcharged such as if your regulator or alternator is failing. FLA batteries vent those nasty fumes routinely by design. I've repaired a few old motorcycles that had the worst, nastiest rust spots in the battery area because the battery fumes ate through the paint and started eating the steel.

There's nothing particularly worth being suspicious over with AGM batteries. Just buy from a reputable manufacturer (Odyssey, Westco, Yuasa, etc.) and you'll get the same exact life you would out of an FLA battery, if not more because the liquid can't boil or evaporate off when you're not looking. AGM is now the standard battery that's sold at every auto parts store and big-box store across the country.

Personally? I buy the cheapest AGM batteries I can find on Ebay, including the sketchy Chinesium brands, and have had no battery-specific issues so far. I don't keep mine on tenders either; I just top them up when they need it, but more often I keep them charged by riding. This "get the cheapest possible AGM" strategy has worked for about 6 years across a half-dozen bikes. (I've had plenty of issues, but the battery has never been the culprit.)
My opinion is that there's nothing special about the expensive brands. AGM batteries are simple bricks of lead, fiberglass, sulfuric acid, and plastic. Not much to go wrong in there and the cheapies are pretty good at copying the expensive designs.

 

[globalrider]

I'm surprised at your suspicion of AGM...

Only because except for two relatively new vehicles, I have never had an AGM in any of my previous vehicles. So my 8 and 7 years with them so far is a long way from the 16 and 9 years I have had with conventional batteries.

And the 8 year old original factory fitted AGM in one of my cars was 3y 1m old when I bought the car used so who knows what kind of life it had then.

I'm surprised you would say to buy a quality battery yet you buy cheap ones telling me they are all the same. There is a difference in QC.

By the way, none of my 17 motorcycles I have owned so far have ever had corroded battery boxes or frames. The same applies to my cars.

 

[cajunrider]

9+ years out of a conventional battery is impressive. I've never had one last more than 5 years... most die at around 3.

Can I ask what battery you use for that kind of life span? I will definitely consider that next time my car battery dies.

 

[pauls1150]

Cajun - I've had very good results with the "Super Start Premium" battery - NOT the most expensive one in their lineup - from O'Reilly's Auto Parts.
I have the actual lifespans in another thread somewhere, but I couldn't find that... I seem to recall at least 8 years for two of 'em.

EDIT - here it is, post # 23
https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthrea...Li-Ion-CCA-2010-R1200RT/page2&highlight=Camry

 

[globalrider]

Can I ask what battery you use for that kind of life span?

On my BMW R100 GS, the original factory fitted Mareg battery which after 9 years was replaced with a YUASA 53030.

On my cars that I owned for 16 years and 14 years from new, the original factory fitted Panasonic battery. I never had a chance to replace them as the cars were sold. Unfortunately Panasonic car batteries are not available as replacements...

Charging systems were spot on and of course they were maintained by adding a bit of distilled water every 2 years and were on a battery maintainer when the motorcycles were stored for the winter.

Battery life is determined by care or neglect, heat, vibration and their quality.

 

[cajunrider]

Thanks for the info Paul & GlobalRider!
I will write that down to look into next time I need to change a battery.

 

[pauls1150]

note my edit above, post 13.

 

[kbasa]

The single biggest positive effect I've had on starting my R100CS was adding a set of cables from these guys: https://www.motolectric.com/makes/bmw.html

It got rid of alternator whine on my RT when I had an Autocom. When I added the cables to my R100, it got rid of any recalcitrant starts. My Ducati 916, which has a notably icky charging system that struggles to generate enough cranking power to turn it over quickly, was dramatically changed by having seriously good cables to the starter. I'd go with those before mucking around in batteries.

The cables have been in my BMWs for I dunno, 10 or 12 years now. Worth the money. The cables are terrifically well made and fit perfectly.

 

[mikegalbicka]

The single biggest positive effect I've had on starting my R100CS was adding a set of cables from these guys: https://www.motolectric.com/makes/bmw.html

It got rid of alternator whine on my RT when I had an Autocom. When I added the cables to my R100, it got rid of any recalcitrant starts. My Ducati 916, which has a notably icky charging system that struggles to generate enough cranking power to turn it over quickly, was dramatically changed by having seriously good cables to the starter. I'd go with those before mucking around in batteries.

The cables have been in my BMWs for I dunno, 10 or 12 years now. Worth the money. The cables are terrifically well made and fit perfectly.

Interesting. Learned something new today. Thanks.

 

[kbasa]

Interesting. Learned something new today. Thanks.

You bet. They sell all manner of bits for BMWs, but those cables are worth the money, in my humble opinion.

 

[globalrider]

I just removed the origfinal factory fitted AGM battery from my 2016 R1200 GS Adventure to confirm the battery make, part number, and all the details because I read that some owners had used another YUASA battery (YTX14H-BS), something different from the stock YUASA YTZ14S.

Sure enough BMW used a styrofoam block under the "shorter" factory installed YUASA YTZ14S.

By the way, the Date Code on the original battery is 07/10/2015...7th or 10th month? (why can't people use military date format...YYYY-MM-DD) and it measured an open circuit at 12.94V. Not bad for an old battery not that a battery voltage reading is proof that the battery is in a good state of health but it started the GS in a split second turning over the engine ultra fast as usual.