Intro and 2004 R1150RT Service Questions

[roger 04 rt]

First, let me briefly introduce myself. After taking a couple decades off from riding and maintaining Kawasaki (Enduro) Honda (Street) and Yamaha (Dirt) bikes, I bought a very well cared-for 28,000 mile 2004 R1150RT from a dealer in New England a few months ago. What a terrific motorcycle! I understand everyone's enthusiasm.

I've been reading this forum since August and picking up really good stuff on the care and maintenance of these motorcycles. After riding a couple hundred miles from the dealer to Cape Cod the bike developed a "drip" from one of the four vent/drain hoses near the right footpeg. The insight gained reading this forum helped me quickly figure out that the internal hoses from the filler area of the gas tank to the filter/fuel pump assembly were leaking. So first, a big THANK YOU to this forum.

Since taking delivery I've been slowly going over the bike, and have addressed or serviced: oil, oil filter, air filter, fuel filter and internal hoses, transmission fluid, brake fluid flush, spark plugs (Autolite, including grinding down an 11/16 socket for the lower plug), valve adjustment, idle speed, throttle body sync and several cosmetic items.

Some parts have been removed which I will post in the Flea Market: Ilium Passenger Sportboards (solo riding), Shift Extension (large feet) and Bar Back risers (long arms). And some parts added: Tall/Comfort seat (6' 3"), BoosterPlug (took rough edges off throttle response), and Kisan Signal Minder (running lights, brake flasher).

With that stuff done, I'm hoping to get some help with a few questions:

1. The dealer replaced the alternator belt and after 1,000 miles it's squeaking for a moment after start. I'm guessing the tension wasn't set correctly. I'll have to check which belt it has (Poly V or Elast). How important is it to use the special BMW tools when adjusting tension?

2. When will the clutch spline need to be lubricated and how would I know? It looks like a pretty big job.

3. I think there is too much play in the throttle cable at rest. How often does this need to be adjusted?

4. Should I wait for the plastic fuel quick releases to leak or is this a time-bomb needing attention?

5. It seems like the gas cap doesn't seal to the filler neck. Is there an adjustment?

6. When the internal tank lines were leaking, most of the fuel dripped from the neck tube but about a quarter cup or so came out the canister vent. What are the chances that the canister was damaged?

Thanks again and glad to have joined.

Roger

 

[MotorradMike]

Hi Roger:

Welcome, and glad you like the bike.

I have some opinions to share numbered per your questions.

1/ IMO your belt is adjusted perfectly if it chirps just after a cold start, then stays quiet.
3/ I'd wait 'til you do a TB sync to remove excessive play. If you remove ALL the play you're asking for trouble. If the right side is held open the tiniest bit, your bike will run like crap. if you can get in there with your fingers and try that while it's warmed up and idling you can simulate that problem and maybe recognize it if it happens later.
4/ Everything I've read says this is a time bomb. Beemer Boneyard sells good ones and don't forget you have a 10% discount.
5/ The filler cap requires a hard press to close all the way. Mine makes 2 distinct clicks.
6/ Everybody removes the canister.

 

[Walking Eagle]

Welcome

Spline lube: LOTS of information on this pesky job, so check around the forum using the (mostly useless) Search Engine -- frankly, use Google or something and you'll get better results, with many "hits" getting you right back to THIS forum. Go figure.

You've got some time before you MUST do it, but if you get ambitious over the winter, you could do it now. Paul Glaves says to do it "around 40k." Obviously, if you've got an OLDER bike (you don't), with fewer than 40k miles, they might need it, too. Others can address your specific situation. My '94 RS needed it when I got it with over 40k on the clock. Lots of fretting corrosion, but no damage.

Be of good cheer about doing this job, and don't be a-skeered when you look at all the pictures of Oilheads with tail-in-air and parts scattered all over the floor, including that tranny, which (obviously) has to come out. How do you eat an elephant? A bite at a time, of course, and you do the exact same thing here to lube the splines. Nothing particularly hard about it -- BUT you must be very meticulous about keeping track of what you've done, and use baggies for the parts with labels, or take pictures, or both. I use Clymer, Haynes, and factory manual, but that's just me. Each provides a slightly different look at the territory, and you can cross-check for any minor errors lurking therein. You've already hit the main resource, and that's this forum. Being able to ask people (in real time) who actually know what they're doing (not me) helps enormously. Don't get in a rush, and enjoy the process, which is mostly a matter of taking things apart, cleaning them thoroughly as you go, and putting them back together in correct order. After all the fun, and once you've got it all apart, don't forget to lube the splines! So what if it takes you two weeks? Dealers get a LOT of $$$ for this straightforward job.

Grease: Active thread over on Airhead Forum right now. Read it, and make your choice. I'll not start yet another grease thread here. Really.

You obviously know how to ask good questions, and are facing your fears, so you'll be good to go when spring comes.

Regards,

Walking Eagle

 

[PETDOC]

Roger,
I've got 47,300 miles on my '04 1150 GS.
I have an earlier modle and the older ele alternator belt. It does not ever chirp. I replaced the original at the recommended 36,000 miles (still looked new) and then re-tensioned the new one after 600 miles as per factory recommendations. Easier to tension with factory tool, but it is not essential.
Regarding the spline lube I'd search for a thread where Paul Glaves has spoken to this as he has had the most experience on the subject. I unfortunately have gotten to lube mine at 31, 000 and 44,000 miles due to a malfunctioning clutch slave cylinder and a leaky rear input seal, respectively. The latter should have been changed with the slave cylinder, but I didn't know that at the time. The first tear down was a RPITA, but the second went much faster. Same can be said of the fuel filter. The first replacement took me over 4 hours and I was seriously considering moving the filter outside the tank. The second change took me exactly 45 minutes, so I left it inside the tank.
I have not remove the carbon cannister, but I've read some horror stories frrom people who have had it get saturated with gas and plug up.
If not yet done on your bike you should consider upgrading your left cam chain tensioner to the one used on the 1200s. There is a great thread on ADVRIDER.com with photos on how to do the swap. The Hall Of Wisdom has all kinds of threads on maintaining/repairing the oilheads.http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/
Dave

 

[roger 04 rt]

Hi Roger:

1/ IMO your belt is adjusted perfectly if it chirps just after a cold start, then stays quiet.
3/ I'd wait 'til you do a TB sync to remove excessive play. If you remove ALL the play you're asking for trouble. If the right side is held open the tiniest bit, your bike will run like crap. if you can get in there with your fingers and try that while it's warmed up and idling you can simulate that problem and maybe recognize it if it happens later.
4/ Everything I've read says this is a time bomb. Beemer Boneyard sells good ones and don't forget you have a 10% discount.
5/ The filler cap requires a hard press to close all the way. Mine makes 2 distinct clicks.
6/ Everybody removes the canister.

Thanks for the tip about the right side throttle vane and leaving specified slack. I was hoping that by removing some of the slack I'd get better throttle control during shifting.

Will monitor the belt and replace the QDs.

Filler cap is interesting. To prepare for posting I took the bike in and out of the garage for a photo. Brought it back in, parked on sidestand. Full tank-- 1/4" below filler neck when on centerstand. 1 hour later fuel is dripping from neck drain hose. Bike then put on centerstand. To me this says the cap isn't sealing. I will study some more.

Read a lot about the canister here. Sensed some controversy. Didn't realize that a high percentage remove. The design looks like an afterthought.

Spline lube: LOTS of information on this pesky job, so check around the forum using the (mostly useless) Search Engine -- frankly, use Google or something and you'll get better results, with many "hits" getting you right back to THIS forum. Go figure.

You've got some time before you MUST do it, but if you get ambitious over the winter, you could do it now. Paul Glaves says to do it "around 40k." Obviously, if you've got an OLDER bike (you don't), with fewer than 40k miles, they might need it, too. Others can address your specific situation. My '94 RS needed it when I got it with over 40k on the clock. Lots of fretting corrosion, but no damage.

Be of good cheer about doing this job ...

Grease: Active thread over on Airhead Forum right now. Read it, and make your choice. I'll not start yet another grease thread here. Really.

You obviously know how to ask good questions, and are facing your fears, so you'll be good to go when spring comes.

Regards,

Walking Eagle

Thanks, will search it out and read more and look for grease threads too. I needed the encouragement after seeing a photo sequence elsewhere. Will save it for this winter or next and consider slave cylinder and clutch plate at same time I guess.

Roger,
I've got 47,300 miles on my '04 1150 GS.
I have an earlier modle and the older ele alternator belt. It does not ever chirp. I replaced the original at the recommended 36,000 miles (still looked new) and then re-tensioned the new one after 600 miles as per factory recommendations. Easier to tension with factory tool, but it is not essential.
Regarding the spline lube I'd search for a thread where Paul Glaves has spoken to this as he has had the most experience on the subject. I unfortunately have gotten to lube mine at 31, 000 and 44,000 miles due to a malfunctioning clutch slave cylinder and a leaky rear input seal, respectively. The latter should have been changed with the slave cylinder, but I didn't know that at the time. The first tear down was a RPITA, but the second went much faster. Same can be said of the fuel filter. The first replacement took me over 4 hours and I was seriously considering moving the filter outside the tank. The second change took me exactly 45 minutes, so I left it inside the tank.
I have not remove the carbon cannister, but I've read some horror stories frrom people who have had it get saturated with gas and plug up.
If not yet done on your bike you should consider upgrading your left cam chain tensioner to the one used on the 1200s. There is a great thread on ADVRIDER.com with photos on how to do the swap. The Hall Of Wisdom has all kinds of threads on maintaining/repairing the oilheads.http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/
Dave

Thanks for the links, pointers and encouragement. Because I had read about the canister here when the first leaks occurred I was prepared for the solenoid to open and bike to stall. If I'd not been ready, I don't know what I would have thought when the bike died on back roads 5 miles from home. Took it in stride and got back home but was distracted and that is when I forgot about putting down the sidestand.

I'll have a look at the cam chain tensioner. Would not have thought of that.

I guess I should look at a lot of stuff when I go to the trouble of lubing the spine: rear seal, plate, spline, slave. At the moment, clutch, transmission and seals seem pretty good.

 

[Walking Eagle]

Comments. . .

At that mileage, clutch should be just fine - with -ah- adult riders, these last a long time.

+1 Cam chain tensioner. This job really is dead-easy, and the bike is much quieter at start-up. Tom Cutter at Rubber Chicken Racing has them (also sells pivot bushings to replace swingarm bearings - lots of info around, and a matter of choice. At your mileage, your bearings are probably fine for now.)

Paul Glaves recommends a cannisterectomy, and do I need to say anything else? Either bin it, or turn it into an extra storage space and keep the OEM look. Room inside for fuel filter, bulbs, or whatever else you want to stash.

Walking Eagle

 

[jfremder]

my 2?ó below

1. The dealer replaced the alternator belt and after 1,000 miles it's squeaking for a moment after start. I'm guessing the tension wasn't set correctly. I'll have to check which belt it has (Poly V or Elast). How important is it to use the special BMW tools when adjusting tension? Two nuts locked together will work fine in plac of the 'special tool'

2. When will the clutch spline need to be lubricated and how would I know? It looks like a pretty big job. mines fine at 104k w/o attention, my clutch still has 40% left
3. I think there is too much play in the throttle cable at rest. How often does this need to be adjusted?Time will make your throttle hand smoother

4. Should I wait for the plastic fuel quick releases to leak or is this a time-bomb needing attention? time bomb

Roger

 

[roger 04 rt]

my 2?ó below

Everyone's inputs have given me lots to work with and some other threads to digest. Many thanks.

 

[jeff488]

I have a good check list for the spline lube job. PM me with your email addy and I'll send it to you.
Here's what it looks like when you hit bottom. Stand back and think,"What have I done?!"
Also, I think the throttle cables should have about 1mm play when closed. They both need to be the same, though.

 

[roger 04 rt]

Jeff, PM sent. Interesting photo.

I'd like to revisit my gas cap question. Should gas be able to leak out under the rubber gasket of the cap and then run out the filler-neck tube? Or is the seal that the gasket makes just dirt and dust proof but not gasoline tight?

Even full, I would have thought that the cap would hold the fuel in the tank when the bike was on its sidestand, with pressure being relieved through the check-valve tube and canister system.

I've dissected the cap, everything seems fine, flipped the rubber gasket, cleaned (the lock had been heavily oiled) and reassembled. I'm not worried, just curious. My plan is to keep the bike on its centerstand when I garage it with a full tank.

 

[flars]

Leak

The rubber gasket on the filler cap has to seal. Otherwise you would get gas fumes stinking up the area all the time. Especially during the summer and when the engine is hot. Also, you would get water into the gas tank when it rains. It isn't adustable, and I don't remember ever hearing of one going bad.
If you are still getting fuel leaking out of the drain lines, you need to figure out which line it is coming from. If it is coming from the vent line coming FROM the canister, you still have a leaking line inside the tank, and your canister is toast, or it got saturated with liguid fuel (or water), and it must be replaced or removed. If it is leaking from the fuel tank vent line, then you have a leaking vent line inside the tank. Or maybe the water drain line has come off inside the tank. Who replaced the lines in the tank???

 

[roger 04 rt]

The rubber gasket on the filler cap has to seal. Otherwise you would get gas fumes stinking up the area all the time. Especially during the summer and when the engine is hot. Also, you would get water into the gas tank when it rains. It isn't adustable, and I don't remember ever hearing of one going bad.
If you are still getting fuel leaking out of the drain lines, you need to figure out which line it is coming from. If it is coming from the vent line coming FROM the canister, you still have a leaking line inside the tank, and your canister is toast, or it got saturated with liguid fuel (or water), and it must be replaced or removed. If it is leaking from the fuel tank vent line, then you have a leaking vent line inside the tank. Or maybe the water drain line has come off inside the tank. Who replaced the lines in the tank???

I think I'm getting somewhere. I hear you that the gasket must be fuel and water tight. Seems like a dumb question now.

When the tank leaked a few months ago, it was due to both vent lines not being clamped properly at the fuel plate (leaks from both hoses). The dealer I bought it from (not a BMW dealer) said the lines were replaced and re-clamped, even saying they put two clamps (??) on each line at the plate end.

It is the drain line that had the drops of fuel when the bike was on its sidestand and the tank was full, so I'm thinking now that that line is not well attached to the filler neck nipple inside the tank. We'll see ...

 

[selyab]

Gas cap et al

I have a single plug R1150RT. If you or someone else has taken all the screws out holding the gas filler assembly out you will see a that the filler neck sits on a large O ring. This O rings swells and will no longer fit in its groove so if the filler neck is lifted at all it will get displaced and the filler neck will not sit correctly when it is put back together. The tank will leak at the top as the bike is leaned, accelerated or stopped abruptly if the tank is very full. If you are not riding then take it apart and after a few days the o ring will return to it's normal size and can be reinstalled correctly. A tell tale of displaced o ring it the gas filler assembly won't sit correctly. I inadvertantly caused this problem when I installed a tank bag ring and took all the screws out, moved the filler assembly a little and put it back together. The other effect was it clogged my cannister (and by over filling the tank on a regular basis). The way you know that has happened is after burning a third of a tank, it will cause a vacuum in the tank which will burp when open it.

As far as the tensioner is concerned, a BMW dealer tech in Chico, CA said there is nothing wrong with the tensioners on oilheads/hexheads. I think it might be people jumping on the bandwagon because the Wedgehead's problems.

 

[AntonLargiader]

If the fuel went into the canister, it's not coming from the filler neck drain unless the lines are hooked up wrong. The internal vent goes to the canister, the drain goes to ground. If a non-BMW dealer worked on the fuel tank plumbing, I'd have another look at it. Normally the filler neck drain exits the tank through a hose with a series of X marks on it, going straight to ground, and the vent hose lacks the X marks and goes to the canister, which in turn has a drain line to ground. You can test these by blowing through them.

You could have a leak inside the tank, causing fuel to enter one of the hoses.

Don't for a minute think that "Everyone removes the canister." Hogwash. It sounds like you got fuel into yours which may have damaged it, but you can figure that out by seeing if it still can be blown through. Normally the canister gets damaged by reversing the small hoses, which fills the canister with rain water and eventually rusts it out.

Do get the newer tensioner (with the 14mm head) if you don't have it already, in the name of keeping your tensioner rails unbroken.

The plastic male fitting on the original disconnect set is a time bomb. I replace every one that comes through the shop with the new metal replacement, leaving the female fitting as is.

At 28,000 miles and only seven years, I wouldn't put a big priority on the splines.

The alternator belt needs to be tensioned properly. I describe both systems on my website somewhere.

Definitely take the excess play out of the throttle, using the adjuster under the throttle grip. It will make the bike easier to ride. Make sure the throttle doesn't apply itself at full rotation of the handlebar. When the time comes, you can upgrade that system using the parts specified for the R1150GS.

Don't add any lights or other accessories that add load to the stock wiring.

Make sure you can lock up the tires with the brakes when the key is off (coast down a hill to test this). Obvious disclaimer & warning apply.

 

[PETDOC]

Post #4 on this link may be of help http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=717733

 

[roger 04 rt]

Some Updates

Post #4 on this link may be of help http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=717733

If the fuel went into the canister, it's not coming from the filler neck drain unless the lines are hooked up wrong. The internal vent goes to the canister, the drain goes to ground. If a non-BMW dealer worked on the fuel tank plumbing, I'd have another look at it. Normally the filler neck drain exits the tank through a hose with a series of X marks on it, going straight to ground, and the vent hose lacks the X marks and goes to the canister, which in turn has a drain line to ground. You can test these by blowing through them.

You could have a leak inside the tank, causing fuel to enter one of the hoses.

Don't for a minute think that "Everyone removes the canister." ...

Don't add any lights or other accessories that add load to the stock wiring.

Make sure you can lock up the tires with the brakes when the key is off (coast down a hill to test this). Obvious disclaimer & warning apply.

Thank you both for the inputs on the various topics, and specifically the detail on the fuel line issues. I'm pretty enthused that I've got some interesting work ahead of me and that there's such a good support system here.

As far as the fuel leaks go, it has amazed me that I've had to give this so much attention in the first 3 months of ownership.

To recap,

First problems on day 2: Fuel started leaking from the neck drain line (routing traced and confirmed with some fuel sent down the filler neck) eventually about a gallon of fuel "dripped". Day 3, fuel started leaking from the canister line also (confirmed by tracing and then riding bike till solenoid open, bike stalled). Problems were deduced to be loose lines inside the tank, confirmed when the tank was opened. The lines were secured but I don't know for certain that they were replaced. No more leaks for last three months.

Second problem recently: A few drips of fuel coming from Neck drain hose at Right peg. Fuel pooled inside neck drain, leading me to think the cap was not sealing. The cap has been checked and cleaned and appears fine. Because the vent line were routed correctly (I had checked) before the dealer "fixed" the first problem I assumed they were still routed correctly. I checked today, they got reversed. I can blow through the canister, and used that route to blow a bit paper out the neck drain, confirming the hose reversal.

So I have:

--Tank vent/drain hoses reversed.
--One or more hoses leaking near filler neck
--Unknown condition of internal hoses

I guess it's time to pull the fairings/etc., pull the filler neck, etc. and have a look at the hoses. Since I've got a list of other things to do, I'll wait for some bad weather to get started and go to town. Will report back.

 

[roger 04 rt]

...

So I have:

--Tank vent/drain hoses reversed.
--One or more hoses leaking near filler neck
--Unknown condition of internal hoses

So this morning I pulled the fairings and found the following, all courtesy of a non-bmw dealer vent/drain hose replacement at purchase:

--new vent/drain lines were installed, beautifully double-clamped but reversed

--filler neck installed 1/8 turn counterclockwise from the correct position

--swollen, can't-be-fit, distorted O-ring

--no flat gasket (the parts list shows one?)

The 1/8 turn counterclockwise meant the check valve, which was connected to the filler neck drain line, was sitting in the fuel when the bike was on the sidestand with a full tank.

The squeak that I thought was coming from the Alternator belt, turns out to be coming from the starter. So while the fairings are off, it will come out and get cleaned and lubed. Silicone grease?

 

[roger 04 rt]

With many helpful comments from this forum, I tackled and finished the filler neck positioning and vent/drain line swap; starter lubrication; and left cam chain tensioner upgrade.

The starter was first (photo below) and the "chirping" noise is now gone so I'm pretty confident that it was not from the Alternator belt as I'd first assumed. Some comments:

--The solenoid body and plunger had a thin coating of old, hard grease. I think this was the root cause of the slow disengagement and chirping sound. It was cleaned and lightly lubricated.

--Even though I'd read not to, I made the error of removing the retainer and circular clip to remove the pinion gear. I got it cleaned and lightly lubed but getting the clip and retainer back in place was very tedious and time consuming, live and learn.

Next, I installed a new tank O-ring around the filler neck, reversed the neck/vent hoses on the right side of the frame below the tank where they go through plastic couplers. The vent/drain lines are now clear including the canister, the gas cap seals and the tank will hold pressure applied via the vent line and through the canister. For now, the canister is staying.

Just now I swapped the left side Cam Chain Tensioner as suggested above. Rather than pull the throttle body, I took the over and behind the telelever route (Photo Here). It wasn't as easy on my bike. The toughest part was working out the right height stackup of universals, extensions, adapters and sockets--but it did work. The cam chain is noticeably quieter now. Anyone need an old-style tensioner cheap? :wink

Thanks to everyone for the help. I gained a lot of confidence from the advice. Onward to the QDs ...

 

[PETDOC]

Roger,
If you intend on doing your own service work, the instructions on ADVRIDER.COM Hall of Wisdom regarding brake fluid changing are excellent. I made my own funnel, but you can purchase a pre-made one from BeemerBoneYard. Since I work alone I replaced all the clutch and brake bleeders with Speedbleeders. If I had it to do over again I would not replace the 6 OEM bleeders on the ABS unit as they are very easy to reach with a wrench while pumping the brake.
You may not be at a point where you want to add accessories but one I love is the Kisan Signal Minder. It permits self-cancellation of turn signals based on a timer, but of far greater importance to me is it allows me to cancel my turn signals using the same switch that activates them and I can add my turn signal lights as running lights at 2 different intensities.

Dave

 

[roger 04 rt]

Roger,
If you intend on doing your own service work, the instructions on ADVRIDER.COM Hall of Wisdom regarding brake fluid changing are excellent. I made my own funnel, but you can purchase a pre-made one from BeemerBoneYard. Since I work alone I replaced all the clutch and brake bleeders with Speedbleeders. If I had it to do over again I would not replace the 6 OEM bleeders on the ABS unit as they are very easy to reach with a wrench while pumping the brake.
You may not be at a point where you want to add accessories but one I love is the Kisan Signal Minder. It permits self-cancellation of turn signals based on a timer, but of far greater importance to me is it allows me to cancel my turn signals using the same switch that activates them and I can add my turn signal lights as running lights at 2 different intensities.

Dave

Dave,
Thanks, I'll have a look at it. The fluid was just changed in August so I guess it will be next summer for the next change. I appreciate the tip on not doing the Speedbleeders.

When I purchased the motorcycle, it had an old Kisan Signal minder with switches and very few features. It was possible to plug that model in backwards and I did (within the first two days). That damaged it so I contacted Kisan. Luckily, they offered a trade-in on for the newest model, the SM-5. It's great, and I attached the brake sensor which flashes the tail lights on a stop and also keeps the turn signals from timing out while either brake pedal is held. That means that you can program an 8 second timeout but keep the turn signal flashing before a stop, during the stop, and often for a few seconds after you turn.

Waiting on my QDs from BeemerBoneyard.

RB