How many CO2 cartriges do I need?

[ppaintguy]

Wanderer how would this work for you, it is something I have just done for a buddy on a trike I built. I took one of those small pumps, mounted it in an inobtrusive place on the chassis, hardwired it with a switch and fuse, and have a thin air hose discretely placed that is just long enough to reach the wheels on the trike that coils up neatly and is velcro strapped on the backside of the luggage body.

My buddy can now check his tyres and if air is needed then he can un-hook the hose, turn the switch on and inflate to his little heart's content...lol. We just wanted a different than usual setup as he claims to have the same motivation as yourself in the morning...lol

 

[soffiler]

...As far as the last few posts about CO2 being "bad air", I researched it a bunch and came up with nothing negative. I also saw some posts about CO2 having different "expansion rates" than "air" also not confirmed. Some real science guys got involved and I'm comfortable using CO2.

CO2 has different expansion rate? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

I am a science guy of sorts, but, don't take my word for it. Take the universally accepted work of guys like Boyle and Charles and Gay-Lussac. Here is the website of a chemistry professor that presents the various gas laws fairly well:

http://members.aol.com/profchm/gas_laws.html

Check the "Ideal Gas Law" and "Real vs. Ideal Gases" in particular. Basically what it says is that not all gases demostrate "ideal" behavior; however, taking any given single gas, ideal or not, and simply changing it's temperature and/or pressure and/or volume, it will tend to follow the Ideal Gas Law.

For tire filling, it is really Gay-Lussac's Law that applies best, since the volume of the tire can be assumed to be constant. Gay-Lussac says that the ratio of final temperature to initial temperature (in absolute units) is the same as the ratio of final pressure to initial pressure.

Example: Cold tire at 40F (=500R) and 36 psi; same tire raised to 100F (=560R) is at what pressure? Well, 560/500=1.12, so the hot tire pressure is 1.12x36=40.3psi.

That's it. That's all there is to it. Does not matter what kind of gas is inside the tire.

 

[lee]

Wanderer and Lee,

I'm curious but if your tires are up on trip why not stop at gas station and top off?

I use the gas station when I can. There has been plenty of times when I wanted a little air and my tires were warm by the time I found a gas station.
Unless I know there is a air hose close by, I'll use the air pump in the morning when the tires are cold.

 

[cjack]

I use the gas station when I can. There has been plenty of times when I wanted a little air and my tires were warm by the time I found a gas station.
Unless I know there is a air hose close by, I'll use the air pump in the morning when the tires are cold.

Has anyone used the co2 gizmos that allow you to squeeze off a burst with a trigger and not use the whole container? Do they hold their pressure for weeks or whatever?
I guess I could sacrifice a tube of it to see, but thought it would be an easy way to fill the tires when on a long trip, etc.

 

[RIDERR1150GSADV]

Really?

I can't seem to find any references to CO2 deterioration of rubber. Oxygen (O2), yes. Ozone (O3) absolutely yes. But CO2 is rather non-reactive as far as I know.

Now, those "Tire-Flate" aerosol cans are another matter altogether. They use propane, if I remember correctly. That will surely lead to trouble if left in the tire long-term.

I remember reading about that in my RT manual a few years back, and don't know why the 'legal eagles' would put it in the book unless it was just a case of CYA.
Can someone check this?? It is perhaps why all the newer bikes don't come with the tire patch kits or tools anymore

Yeah, I guess propane in your tires could redifine the term burnout

 

[cjack]

I remember reading about that in my RT manual a few years back, and don't know why the 'legal eagles' would put it in the book unless it was just a case of CYA.
Can someone check this?? It is perhaps why all the newer bikes don't come with the tire patch kits or tools anymore

Yeah, I guess propane in your tires could redifine the term burnout

The missing plug kit is still sold by BMW, so I think it is unlikely that they left them out for any reason other than cost.

 

[RIDERR1150GSADV]

The missing plug kit is still sold by BMW, so I think it is unlikely that they left them out for any reason other than cost.

That may be true, but if BMW doesn't provide it with the bike and makes you buy it, if you want it, is BMW is than no longer responsible for whatever happens???

 

[The_Veg]

They want you to tow it straight to the nearest dealer for tire repair.

 

[ppaintguy]

I don't think BMW or other manufacturers take responsibility for road hazard damage in tires anyway. Even tire companies don't like the use of plugs as a longer than necessary term form of repair.

 

[gregfeeler]

I don't think BMW or other manufacturers take responsibility for road hazard damage in tires anyway. Even tire companies don't like the use of plugs as a longer than necessary term form of repair.

I don't know of any dealers who will plug a tire anymore. It's just not worth losing their business to a lawsuit, and who can blame them?

 

[Stuff2c]

Don't all tire plug kits have a "for off road use only" disclaimer.

 

[gregfeeler]

Don't all tire plug kits have a "for off road use only" disclaimer.

Not exactly. This is what I found on the Stop & Go site (http://www.stopngo.com). This was the closest in their FAQ:

6. Will the mushroom plugs work in steel belted radial tires?

Yes, as an emergency repair. They are not considered a permanent repair when installed in street (high speed) tires. They can be considered permanent in off-road (slow speed) tires such as golf cars, mowers, etc. F.Y.I. ÔÇô How long our mushroom plugs will work in steel belted tires will depend on the proximity to the belts and the quality of installation.


7. Should I consider the use of your Patch/Plug #3002 a permanent repair in my motorcycle tire?

Safety experts all agree that a punctured and/or plugged motorcycle tire should be replaced as soon as possible. That is our opinion also.

 

[PacWestGS]

Nitrogen

OK, back to air and wanderer's problem with altitude and temp extremes.

Have you considered using "100% Nitrogen Air"? It is more stable than compressed atmospheric (ambient) air and hold up better to heat and escape pressures.

Every body in FIM/GP/F1/NASCAR (heck everyone) is using it, a lot of the high-end car manufactures are using and tire stores recommend it.

You can still add ambient air as needed it just dilutes the 'N' until you can find a store to refil your tires.

We had this discussion recently and I think it died, but there was lots of info posted on it last year.

Russ

 

[wanderer]

No Nitrogen for me

I heard some people use it but I wouldn't use it on a motorcycle as it would lighten the bike and you could lose traction and float off the road!!

 

[ppaintguy]

OK, back to air and wanderer's problem with altitude and temp extremes.

Have you considered using "100% Nitrogen Air"? It is more stable than compressed atmospheric (ambient) air and hold up better to heat and escape pressures.

Russ

Russ did you really buy a can of air? If so I still have that swamp land in FL to sell too...lol Just kidding

 

[cjack]

I don't know of any dealers who will plug a tire anymore. It's just not worth losing their business to a lawsuit, and who can blame them?

I know of a law suit where a fellow fell down on a /2 that wobbled on a city street and the rider fell off and hit his head. The widow tried to sue based on the tire being mounted with the arrow on the tire pointing the wrong way. The tire didn't go flat or anything.

 

[gregfeeler]

Factory air!

OK, back to air and wanderer's problem with altitude and temp extremes.

Have you considered using "100% Nitrogen Air"? It is more stable than compressed atmospheric (ambient) air and hold up better to heat and escape pressures.

Russ

Boy, you guys are all missing out on the best approach: OEM BMW Factory Air. That's what makes your new BMW ride and handle so well. It comes from the very top of the Baverian Alps and is the *real* reason BMW did so well in racing many years ago. For some strange reason they stopped using it, but I hear will again in their new K-series competition. You can't get it from your dealer anymore, but I just happen to have a good supply of NOS BMW air (P/N 63-99-10345-543) I can make you a good deal on...

 

[cjack]

Boy, you guys are all missing out on the best approach: OEM BMW Factory Air. That's what makes your new BMW ride and handle so well. It comes from the very top of the Baverian Alps and is the *real* reason BMW did so well in racing many years ago. For some strange reason they stopped using it, but I hear will again in their new K-series competition. You can't get it from your dealer anymore, but I just happen to have a good supply of NOS BMW air (P/N 63-99-10345-543) I can make you a good deal on...

I think I've HEARD some of that BMW Factory air a time or two...

 

[PGlaves]

Gotta tell a story here.

A few years ago Voni and I were headed from Kansas to Texas - about 60 miles from home. We had just pulled into the edge of a small town when I noticed her pull onto the shoulder behind me. I turned around, went back and she said she had a flat tire.

I noticed a restaurant across the road so rode her bike to its nice flat parking lot to do a repair. I got out my stuff. Looked the tire over but couldn't find the leak. Fired the first C02 cartridge into the tire to locate the leak. I could hear it hissing but didn't find the little hole. Used C02 #2! Still couldn't find it. I had 5 total with us.

I grumbled - and finally exclaimed, "If this sh#$ keeps up I'm going to start carrying a 12 volt pump." Voni, being wiser and more aware than I then said, "I'll just go next door and get one." Sure enough, there sat an Alco store. She went and bought a pump - $12. The first one had a broken connector for the valve stem, so she took it back and got a second one. She carried that pump in the tailcone of her R1100RS for at least 5 years, and used it a few times - until I got her a Cycle Pump which is more durable and compact.

 

[soffiler]

OK, back to air and wanderer's problem with altitude and temp extremes.

Have you considered using "100% Nitrogen Air"? It is more stable than compressed atmospheric (ambient) air and hold up better to heat and escape pressures.

Every body in FIM/GP/F1/NASCAR (heck everyone) is using it, a lot of the high-end car manufactures are using and tire stores recommend it...

And thus, the myth is perpetuated... Sorry, but in my not so humble opinion, nitrogen tire filling is truly nothing but snake oil.

Can you actually explain what you mean when you say it is more "stable"? What does it mean to "hold up better" to heat? "Escape pressures" - what?

Furthermore, your references to various racing programs use of nitrogen do nothing to explain either (a) why race teams use it in the first place, or (b) why the benefits to a racing team are also benefits to a motorcyclist. Hey, racing teams all use silicone-based DOT5 brake fluid - should I?

Here is a link to an engineering discussion forum that gets into great detail on the myths of nitrogen tire filling:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=120996&page=1

Briefly, here are some salient points:

- race teams started using nitrogen due to convenience; a bottle of compressed N2 at 3000psi is readily available, portable, and inexpensive. Air compressors, and/or the power to run them, may not be anywhere near as convenient for a race team that is travelling from track to track.

- it is true that pure oxygen (O2) permeates a butyl rubber membrane somewhat faster than pure nitrogen (N2). However... the rates we are talking about are infinitesimal in practice. I check and adjust my tire pressure before nearly every ride, so why in the world do I care about permeation rates that are infinitesimally slow? Secondly, regular old compressed air is actually 79% N2, while the "pure" N2 from the tire store's membrane-separator machine is about 90% to 95% at best. It's not like we are comparing pure N2 to pure O2; the differences are fairly small to begin with.

- regarding pressure change due to temperature change: air, which is a mix of N2, O2, water vapor, and trace amounts of a variety of gases such as CO2, argon, helium, etc. has exactly the same reaction to temperature change as pure N2. EXACTLY the same. We can get into the Combined Gas Law and Real vs Ideal Gases if you want elaboration here.

- heavy truck fleets that use N2 do so for one specific reason: tire carcasses are used over and over in retreads. O2 will degrade rubber over very long periods of time - years. Pure N2 solves this problem and allows the carcasses to stay in service longer. Not an issue on a motorcycle tire.

- aircraft use N2 by FAA mandate, which is based specifically on a concern over tire fires caused by high heat from brakes, plus hydrocarbons from rubber, plus O2 within the tire if filled with compressed air.