Help With Fuel System R1100RS

[67289]

Progress?

Well, I managed to change out the tires and and a complete fluids change EXCEPT brake fluid. Appears to run well enough for a road test so off we go. I was only going to run it up the road a piece and return for a check. It began to really run well so we decided a trip around the block. Throttle was a bit sticky...couldn't seem to make smooth roll ons and return was sporadic. Not normal for this design for sure. But we can deal with that for now. About to the point of no return (when it was equal distance to return or go on 'round the block) I noticed the machine continued to lose power...more throttle, speed drops, more throttle...engine is laboring...more throttle...hmmm...
At a safe wide spot I roll off to take a look see. It was evident now what the issue is! The bike dives as throttle rolled off...saaaayyyy. Front brakes are locking.
We pried on the calipers enough to release them and drove back using rear brake. Front calipers disassembled, cleaned and returned to service. Nothing remarkable to note. upon attempting to bleed brake system the master was noted to not "pump" fluid and sticky feeling. We'd better tear this thing apart. I think BMW built the entire motorcycle around that right hand grip! After lots of swearing and every tool in the box out on the floor, I get the master off (heated grips do not ease the situation!) and indeed the DOT4 fluid had seeped past the lip seal and hardened into the white crud as typical of those types of fluids. I think the master bore can be saved and the piston/lip seals look fine. I'll start by salvaging the assembly as is. If it does not seal with the existing cups then it is the bore and a new master is in order.

Upon closer examination, I now realize it has been 4 years that this bike has been laid up. To bring it back on line , is turning out to be a substantial amount of money and copious amounts of labor...mainly because these are tasks I have never before performed. We have nigh on $778 in this at this point. Rapidly approaching 1/5 the bike's value (at best). But that 5 minute ride was inspiring. Instantly, I felt at home on that thing. This bike fits me. A fit worth the effort to keep!

 

[69zeff65]

ABS brakes ???

Do you have ABS on the bike? If you do you may want to also dive into the screens and pistons that are located in the ABS pump under your gas tank. They are pretty straight forward and simple, screens and pistons are located under your bleeder screw in the pump. You don't have to remove the pump to get at and clean the little buggers but you will have to disconnect your hard lines to properly flush any junk out of your brake system. I would give some thought to installing a stainless brake line kit as well because the rubber ones have a habit of starting to leak at the most inopportune time.

 

[Walking Eagle]

2-wheel Storage

Not to put too fine a point on it, but those of us who have brought "stored" bikes back to life aren't surprised by your experience.

"A lesson for us all" to not get fooled by a LOW MILEAGE, good-looking bike that has been sitting for years. Unless the owner is very careful with storage prep, (and maybe even then) a lot of stuff is going to need attention, and on our Teutonic rides, this means MOOLAH. Be very glad you can do this stuff yourself.

All that aside, the R1100RS is my all-time favorite ride, and I'm glad to see that you feel that way, also. When you're done, you're going to have one sweet machine, and the money you spent getting there will not be important. Few of us buy/ride m/c's with a practical eye! Life is short.

+1 on the suggestion for stainless lines and a good cleaning of the ABS under the tank - EZ job, and just about for sure, yours needs it, bad. Contrary to (perhaps) popular belief, the 1100 Motronic bleeders DO sometimes need attention if the entire system has not been flushed, like, ever. On the 1100's, a bleed/flush is supposed to also bleed through the Motronic (which is does, just not enough.) Well, mine had "goo" even though the brakes felt good, and the lines and calipers had been bled.

FYI, Cyclebrakes sells Galfer stainless lines, and they support BMWMOA. Good people, and there is a standard kit for the R1100RS. The Banjos will "clock" for a nice fit.

Good luck, and enjoy the ride.

Walking Eagle

 

[ANDYVH]

I agree with this comment 100%, ""A lesson for us all" to not get fooled by a LOW MILEAGE, good-looking bike that has been sitting for years. Unless the owner is very careful with storage prep, (and maybe even then) a lot of stuff is going to need attention, and on our Teutonic rides, this means MOOLAH. Be very glad you can do this stuff yourself."

My 94 RS is a great ride that I have just acheived 160,000 miles on it in almost 17 years. I ride it regularly and as much as I can in all sorts of weather. It has been VERY reliable, with NO fuel system issues, and since I installed SpeedBleeders and stainless steel brake hoses (I would NEVER waste the moeny on stock OEM brake hoses) the brake system is easy to service. Other than a failed ABS controller back in 98, I have never had any brake issues. I replaced the ABS controller myself and it has been problem free since.

On of the best "maintenance" things you can do with your beloved BMW ride, is RIDE IT, a lot if you can. Keeping it active really makes a difference.

 

[67289]

Thanks for the responses.
Yes, it does have the ABS II system (I think I am thankful it is not the next generation integral system...that looks difficult).
You are most correct suggesting a stainless line replacement. It is common practice to "time life" (X amount of hours in service) hoses in aircraft...why not here? I hadn't thought of it ...yet! I was trying to get some hours on the injection system for fine tuning and synching. But that is not going to happen until I put a bit more effort in the braking system.
I began taking care of the master by complete tear down and cleaning. Here it is ready for a swipe honing...

It is painted up with Dykem layout ink. Pretty harmless stuff and cleans up readily with denatured alcohol. It will show up any low spots that do not clean up with honing. Low spots or pits that may not seal or chew the lip of the cup seals. What look like pits in that pic are actually proud deposits to be removed.
I took a really really quick swipe with a Sunnen mandrel style hone (not one of those handyman spring loaded glaze breaker style things). All the ink cleaned up. That means we have a true bore again. It was further lapped with 400 Clover compound with a dowel chucked in a drill. Looks quite good. We'll see when assembled. The seals were removed and cleaned as well. The outer cup had the same deposits packed under the cup preventing ease of movement to conform with bore. So far so good.

I'll explain the extra "parts" later when we get there!


We'll order some hoses and pump parts as suggested. I think that is a sound idea. I believe the right heated grip is also failed. I will also do a valve clearance check which means some new gaskets.

I agree regarding stored machines. I anticipated there would be difficulties in bringing this bike back on line. I knew it the minute I grabbed that brake lever that something was going to need work.
I will be frank, this machine was rode hard and put away wet. I had relied on dealer service and I do not think they gave as much attention as they should have and certainly not as much as it is receiving now (I found two missing fasteners and the vac hose off the right throttle body...they didn't just "fall off"). I am not deterred at all. I think of it this way: It hasn't had ANY costs during the past four years! I am merely catching up!
It is strange. What other choice is there? Sell it as a non-runner or part it out? Replace it with what? I know I am getting old and stodgy...but the newer generation of BMW's just do not cut it. There seems to me to be a gap in the line up right where this bike was. With this bike I have a known entity...a given. It rides very well. Fits perfectly. Fills my needs completely. It is worth the effort and finances expended...to me!

 

[Walking Eagle]

Glad You're Here. . .

That about says it. You OBVIOUSLY have a lot of technical expertise, and I hope you "stick around" to help the rest of us out after your project isn't such a project! Also, you express yourself well, and can type!

No offense to anyone, but the newer BMW's don't do it for me, either. For one thing, I can't work on them myself, and -- your story about the dealer omissions is just one of many. [I know many great dealers out there, and have nothing but respect for the good guys, but there are too many stories like "missing fasteners" out there to suit me.] I was recently helping a friend with her '94 R-RS, and the dealer (yes, I know it was them) had failed to use the correct fastener on the side panel, right at the (critical) front bolt near the fork tube, and had not even screwed the "tank bolt" on the side all the way in! The front-bolt was sticking out at least an INCH because that was as far as they could FORCE it in, as it wasn't close to the right thread. Come on! how #$%& basic is THAT? WTF?

Hey, I owned the Big Yellow Taxi '98 K1200RS, and I know it was an amazing ride -- what's not to like about feeling that "train-like" pull when you roll it on? Hills didn't matter, altitude didn't matter, 2-up. . .never pulled a trailer with it, but I bet you couldn't feel it, either. Still. . .love them boxers, and I (now) know enough to do some of the mechanical work myself, and it feels real good. No background in mechanics, whatsoever, but I can read and know how to ask questions right here.

Walking Eagle

 

[ANDYVH]

I agree again! I work part time at Nick's BMW, where I am the lead rider for most of the demo rides. As such I get to ride all the new models (except so far for the R1200R, that might be a good thing), and everytime I ride a R model, RT or GS, I still get that stupid/happy/satisified grin that I don't always get on other models.

I know in my heart the R1200R is my next bike, maybe in a year or two. For now, 94 RS still works for me, like a part of me. Plus, I can do all the needed work on it, and have for all but 3,000 of the 160K on it now.

 

[67289]

Here's a pic of the dust boot from the master cylinder...

It is turned inside out so this is the inside, as exposed to the fluid leakage. Now that isn't amber grease! That goo and glumpy crap is typical of DOT 3 and 4 fluid as it becomes saturated with moisture. These are great fluids but that is the weakness. They have a limited ability to deal with moisture. Their tolerance is low and when it hits that point it gels and eventually turns into hard deposits...emulating exfoliation corrosion. Silicone Dot 5 can better hold larger quantities of moisture in suspension thus doesn't do this. But it is much harder to seal and cannot take the temperatures of the DOT 3 or 4. At least that's how I understand it!
Anyway, the master is all back together ...

The lever is all nice and snappy in the return stroke...I hope it seals!
Yes, I took the time to un-pin the heated grip Molex connector...can't stand to chop wires! It is a pain to get those out but take your time and it can be un-pinned. We also have ordered new lines and banjo washers and await their arrival for further work.

NOW...a question for you folks! About cleaning the screens and pistons of the regulator assembly: Are these parts contained under these large hex headed caps (upon which the bleeders mount)???

Give me an idea and I'll pull them out and see what lurks in that expensive electronical doodad!
Thanks in advance!

 

[lsouth3]

Abs

This link will provide a good look into the ABS II mechanics.

http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/BMW ABS II D&A.pdf

 

[67289]

Ask, and you shall receive...

OUTSTANDING!

I do not think I will need to dig that deep but it gives a terrific idea as to what's down there. As the braking system was sealed during storage, I doubt there is any real bad clumping going on. That happens when the fluid is exposed to moisture (as in humid air) like at the weeping area about the master piston. The ABS unit appears very well sealed and hopefully has remained quite clean. It just wouldn't hurt (provided I do not screw something up!) to pop the tops and clean the preliminary parts.

Thanks so much for the link!

 

[67289]

Well, we've ordered some brake lines and a gob of copper sealing washers. I haven't opened up Pandora's box (the ABS modulator) yet. Since I heated the front brake pads pretty well during that test and chewed on them with the tool kit screw driver, I have ordered new pads also. I received the head cover gaskets so we can proceed with valve lash adjustment/check. In preparation of that task, I removed the front belt cover ...that's a challenge on an RSL. The "lowers" mounting bracket prevents dropping the cover. By removing the right lower support bracket from front of engine, the cover can be flexed enough to with draw the cover out to the right side and down. With that cover out...you know, perhaps we need to replace that belt while all this is tore apart. That vent tube traps it so two more sealing washers and a belt to order...

And it continues! Onward!

 

[67289]

Abs..ok!

We did find a bit of time to uncork the ABS modulator to have a look at the top internals that are exposed to the brake fluid.
As anticipated (and hoped!) we found nothing remarkable...

Top view and so far so good. A couple of fruit cups are used to separate and contain parts and a stiff zip tie was used to harmlessly fish out the o-rings. Nice and clean. Let's pull the screens and pistons...

A non-event. Done as per the previously linked document. All seems spotless. No gunk what so ever. I'd say the only foreign material located was what looked like fibers from a shop towel in the front brake screen. That's about all. I had hoped and was relatively confident it would be in this condition since it is a well sealed unit with moisture being barred from entry.
That's one element that is removed from the equation. We'll reassemble and await the brake hoses. Those will drive some people nuts...I got them in red to match the Marrakesh Red of the bike! Not just for farkle factor...something other than black tends to be easier to inspect for failure. It was no additional cost and adds some color.

Have been reading here all the other things that might need addressing on this machine. I do not think we'll get into spline lubrication at this point. That'll wait till after some miles are run in. The way it looks, likely winter. I am planning on something to retain the sight glass.

 

[rxcrider]

Spline lube on the drive shaft is a quick job not all that expensive if it isn't done on time - good used drive shafts can be found reasonably priced.

Clutch splines scare me after what I found on my bike that was shifting just fine - no symptoms at all. I'd at least pull the starter and take a look before whipping on it for the fall riding season. If you didn't see my post before...
http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?t=55462

 

[67289]

There's More?

I have read back through several threads on the drive shaft slip joint (that's what I am going to call it and it sure is definitive). I don't like it. But I will likely pull the ring and pinion housing (final drive I think is the common term here) and get after that drive shaft.
I read your clutch thread Jonathan. I will pull the starter and check radial backlash. With your information, I know .2" radial movement is excessive! Unless we see...perhaps beyond 1/32" (yes, I still use fractional measurement everyday...drives the young types nutz ) we may be safe. For now. I am running tight on time to devote to this at this time of the year.
Based on past experience with clutches and splines, I cannot help but feel this is a minimally engineered design. To require that much attention to get to 100K miles just does not sound right to me. I'll do it, but that does not make it sound engineering. Somebody in Bavaria got cheap. It all smacks of the term "fragile". Something I hadn't applied to BMW motorcycles previously. As mentioned earlier, that old airhead I revived at the same time as this oilhead is still running...everyday!

 

[67289]

While we're at it...Bottom's up!

I got a bad case of "might as wells".
Pulled the starter to see the radial play on the disk to input shaft splined interface. Less than 1/32". Considering the diameter, that sounds reasonable. I do hope there's no damage there.
Well, I suppose we should take that final drive off there and get after that shaft slip joint. You all know the routine. Strip a gob of parts off and we're down to removing the boot at final drive. Oh dear! Where's this puddle of oil coming from??

Nice and clear so it is the fluid I just added for change. Both trans and final drive use same fluid so can't tell by taste/smell/feel. Don't know. I measured the amounts I added. Beats me. It spewed that amount then dried up. I suspect final drive but no real way of telling at this point. Onward.
I WAS just going to remove the final drive. But was soon thwarted for lack of tools. I declare, I believe of all the obstacles this project has presented the need for every type of wretching device and my lack of said instruments has got to be the most frustrating factor. I have turned wrenches on all sorts of machinery and prime movers and have nigh on everything I need to do nearly anything from major to minor, but this motorcycle has an incessant need for a new tool at every task!! Exasperating!! I went to remove the paralever arm and lo and behold I don't have but one 16mm socket and no 16mm wrenches! None of the sets have one. Oh well, my speed wrench will get it. How about those swing arm pivots? Aaarrgghhh!!! 12MM hex key?? None to be found! A visit to two auto parts store, a True Value, and a box store...nope. No 12MM key. Well, that task will have to wait. But I have the whole day off...idle hands you know.

We were observing the clutch disk radial movement and I dropped it in first gear. I grabbed the rear rotor and rolled it all the way full stop forward and set up a pointer (coat hanger) and painted an index mark on the rotor rim.

Then we rolled it full stop opposite direction...

Is that too much slop? I thought it was a large amount. But perhaps not. It feels solid like gear lash versus notching, clicking, or a ramp up in force needed to turn rotor as one would expect from wear problems. Thoughts anyone?

While pondering that and thinking where I could round up a hex key for those pivots, well, I guess it wouldn't hurt to ...aaawww crap!! Bottom's up!!

I guess while we're here we might as well look at the whole doggone thing! Now where am I going to come up with a 12MM hex key over Labor Day weekend? I wonder if I have one of those keys at work??

 

[lsouth3]

12mm hex

Harbor Freight sold mine to me. It is part of a set but well priced.

 

[rxcrider]

I cut my 12mm hex key in two. I have the straight portion glued into a 3/8 drive 12mm socket. The now equal-ish sided 90 degree section works nice for turning them in part way by hand. I'm a bit of a haul from you, but you are welcome to borrow them if you get the urge.

30mm socket, 16mm wrenches.... yeah, we can put a loaner care package together if you come up

Need to replace your clutch lever switch? I've got an 11mm deep well that I've been grinding and cutting into something reminicent of an O2 sensor socket. It still needs some more material removed from the OD at the 1/4" square end to allow it to work without binding, but - oh yeah the point is I share your need to turn perfectly good tools into ones that work for a specific application and then force tool replacement runs at inoprtune times when I actually need the one I cut / welded, bent...

The rotational / angular backlash at the brake rotor is normal. Figure you are looking at all of the lash from the clutch disk back with the portion from the clutch dik to the pinion multiplied by nearly three given the final drive ratio.

The rotational / angular backlash between the clutch disk and trans input shaft sounds good. It may still be due for some moly lube in that region, but it soesn't sound like anything is damaged.

I have transmission installation / removal guide pins (cut down and slotted bolts) and moly lube on hand as well.

 

[Walking Eagle]

Fun Project. . .!!!

Many of us "made the tool" as described by rxrider. Many places to find a 90-degree 12mm key, but very few toolboxes have a socket ready to roll in this size. Ditto the other BIG sockets. . .

You have her feet in the stirrups, now, Eric. . .and it looks as if you're well into the job.

Not to start a "grease thread" here - but Paul Glaves and others recommend MIXING Honda Moly 60 (or other high-moly like Guard-Dog) 50-50 with another sticky grease. I use Bel-Ray Waterproof, and it seems to hold up very well. Without beating this to death, Moly 60 (alone) was "suspected" in some premature spline failures in Honda Valkyries on some of their internal splines after several tens of thousands of miles. One theory is that Moly 60 works GREAT (and it does) on the final drive splines of old Goldwings, but these get greased with each rear-tire change (or should be) -- and that's usually NOT over 10,000 miles before a re-grease. I'm guessing that most of us don't get into this clutch-spline area very often, and certainly not every 10k.

I'm sure many others on this thread have used ONLY Moly 60, and have never had a problem. . .but if Paul does it this way, so do I. My splines were BONE dry at 41K (and 16 years), and the clutch spline showed fretting corrosion.

NOTE WELL: Do NOT put ANY grease on the FEMALE splines -- grease ONLY the male splines, or you can push the excess grease onto the inside of the clutch plates, and when they go round-and-round real fast (as they will with this bike!) the excess slings off and the clutch starts to slip. PLENTY of threads on this subject. I think the Haynes Manual even INCORRECTLY depicts greasing the female splines. BEWARE.

YOU are DA MAN!

Regards to all,

Walking Eagle

 

[67289]

Lots of progress and all splines AOK!

Thanks for the offer Jonathan. And thanks Waking Eagle for the encouragement and tips!
I was running some errands and was in the vicinity of where I work so stopped in and and rifled through all the bins of hex keys and found a nice long arm Eklind 12MM key. Okey dokey. We're in business. Take along the heat gun and the infrared thermometer to ease those pivot screws and off we go!
It went well enough. First, the final drive was off/ How about a peek up the shaft housing?

Hmmm. Nice and tidy. Shaft slip joint looks dandy. All good here. And the male portion on the final?

Just as nice. That's untouched and as removed. Just enough lube and nothing else.
OK, lets pull the swing arm...

Looks just peachy. That is as removed. How much crap can lay on that transmission shelf back there? I declare there was a 1/4 yard of gravel on that shelf!
Here's a good look at the slip joint end...

That looks great. Clean up and go.
We then removed the transmission. No big issue. It sure is handy and light compared to an old solid cast iron 4 speed Mopar box! The singular gripe I have is those two rubber isolators that the battery tray sits on. They couldn't come up with something better that didn't have 3/8" stud sticking up in the air? And then some genius engineer decided he'd nail those ground wire bundles right there on the crankcase between those isolators, effectively trapping the transmission. This requires a person to really pry on that harness to lift it over that stud. It also means it is going to be twice as bad re-installing the transmission. Come on...they couldn't find another area for those grounds or a different type of isolator mounting?
Anyway, the trans was off and things look just fine.

I have a better pic but am having so issues uploading to the host site at the moment. We'll edit that in a bit later.
Here's the transmission input shaft splines all cleaned up...

Everything looks as new. This is 35K miles and I bought the bike in 11/95. I do ride like an old man so I haven't exactly horsed the thing. But with this done now and my riding habits, this should be good for some time to come. All was lubed up with Guard Dog (that's what I had been using on my Airhead) and yes, Walking Eagle, I was careful about the excessive use on the disk. I did put lube on the female splines but it was truly a paint coat applied with a Q-tip. I used my pinky to reach in and swipe any excess off the forward end. Should be sound.
Some guide pins were cobbed up just like everybody else has done and the transmission installed. I can tell you this. At first, I didn't have the pins and attempted to throw the gear box in there. Don't do it! It would be a bloody miracle if you lasted long enough to get it all in alignment and get those wires around those isolators while trying to jog the splines to engage... nope. Not going to happen! Make the pins and life is much easier.
We're on the way back together...

Swing arm is now all cleaned up and an issue with the paralever arm galling one of the ears on the transmission has been corrected. I'm trying something to see if the residual Loctite can be easily removed. We'll see about that. You will notice the drive shaft in the above pic. I cleaned it thoroughly and painted a stripe along its length(that's not a light shine line) This is clocked with the universal joint ear of the forward end of shaft. I'll use this to ease getting the shaft in phase upon installation. It will also serve as an indicator in the future to indicate if the rubber torsional damper has failed and allowed the telescoped forward end of drive shaft to slip.
We also removed the charcoal canister and valve at this time.
We'll assemble the swing arm and final drive next and then we get to lower the tail.

 

[happy wanderer]

You've probably read all about it but looking at the last photo of the stage you're at now, don't forget to get the phasing of the drive shaft right or you risk vibration back there.

I have not done it yet but apparently it is a tad tricky to get the U Joints lined up (phased) correctly when re-assembling and it is critical to do so.

There are a couple of good photos in this thread on Page 2: http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?t=52367&highlight=drive+shaft+assembly&page=2

A quick search in this forum of "drive shaft assembly" or "phase" will probably tell you more than you ever wanted to know on this subject !