Four finger braking?

[greenwald]

My hat's off to anyone who spends their valuable time as an instructor or RiderCoach. Certainly there is a need for better skills and habits. I cringe at the memory of many events where hundreds/thousands of riders demonstrate their ignorance and lack of skill. If I come across as harsh about how instructors/coaches act, it's from a number of years of association and observation, but in no way do I wish to degrade any of you.

However, let's note that the MSF "Experienced RiderCourse" is really the Basic RiderCourse retuned slightly so it can be ridden on your own bike. What is meant by "Experienced" is someone who learned to ride but hasn't yet taken a formal training course. In most states, it would be naive to assume someone who has been riding for a couple of years would take a "basic" course--although it probably wouldn't hurt them. Today's ERC is similar to the old Better Biking Program of yesteryear, when the term "advanced rider" was code for someone who was way over their head.

The problem I see with today's version of the ERC Suite is that riders who really are experienced tend to be beyond the ERC curriculum. Yet the track schools are too intense and not focused enough on street survival tactics. So, a rider with many years of experience thinks, "maybe I should take the course for experienced riders, and see if I have some skills that need honing, or perhaps some bad habits to fix." The ERC probably hits the mark for those "advanced" riders, but IMHO it's not as useful for a truly experienced rider as it is hawked to be.

I like the TEAM Oregon approach, where they look at the statistics and then design a course to answer the problems. For example, TEAM Oregon has noticed that they have a large percentage of motorcyclists who have never gotten endorsed, and unendorsed riders are over-represented in serious crashes. So, they have a one-day course (run on a go-cart track, I understand) that gives the experienced-but-unlicensed rider some tips on cornering, braking, etc. and results in a completion card good as a license test waiver. The rider gets some coaching without a lot of BS, picks up some potentially life-saving techniques, and gets to ride legally.

pmdave

I whole-heartedly agree with your assessment of the current ERC. In past writings, I have oft referred to it as the "BRC on steroids."

I know if I were an 'experienced rider' (still struggling with that definition), I would be less than impressed with it - not a real challenge to what I already know - not a lot of 'growth' in skills or knowledge.

However, I am excited about the ARC (Advanced Rider Course) that the MSF is marketing. I took off my 'instructor hat' some months ago and became a student in that course for a full day, and came away marveling at how different it was from the ERC.

Real-world skills - a feeling that I had advanced my confidence and ability to control my motorcycle under stress.

I'd like to see an open-mind set on the ARC for the next year or two by a wide spectrum of riders - enough time and testing to decide if the re-tooling was a success - a plea for patience, if you will.

As for TEAM Oregon - truly a unique approach for that state. Duplicating something similar to that model another 49 times to be universal across the nation? Might prove a bit difficult, but that's no reason to walk away from the challenge.

I need to learn more about it - intriguing concept.

 

[pmdave]

I'm glad to see something to fill the gap between the BRC/ERC and track schools, for riders with a few years and a few hundred thousand miles under their tires. Please keep us informed about how the ARC turns out.

Yep on the struggle to define "Experienced." A rider who learned a year or two ago might think of himself or herself as "experienced." That may be why the "Hurt Report" showed riders at 2 years experience were slightly more dangerous than novices who just started riding. It's not just a matter of years, but of fate being benevolent while you get your trial-and-error learning.

And of course, we've all seen riders who have been in the saddle for years and years, but who still drag their bootskids, swerve across the centerline when making a right turn, enter blind turns in the right wheel track, deny that countersteering works, use the rear brake only, etc etc. I strongly believe that some riders survive on dumb luck rather than skill. And it would be nice to help them gain skill and knowledge.

Fortunately, we have the MOA Foundation now dealing wtih skills issues. My hope is that at future rallies, and in future ON articles, we can deal more successfully with techniques such as braking. So, thanks, Greenwald, for taking the effort, thus exposing your expertise to the blowtorch.

pmdave

 

[BCKRider]

If I understand the "expected decorum" of this Forum correctly, it is perfectly OK to disagree with or even attack ideas and positions. The reason for this is that we may all learn something.

What I have learned so far in this thread is that 1. There are modern bikes which require more than two fingers on the front brake lever. Good to know if I ever ride one. 2. There are modern bikes with MUCH more powerful front brakes than mine. Also good to know. 3. Some folks with several bikes "shift mental gears" and use the number of fingers required for that particular bike. 4. The ERC may be a disappointment for many experienced riders who both read and practice what they read. 5. There is new MSF Advanced Rider Course which I probably should take if it comes within riding distance.

Attacking an individual, I believe is (and should be) verboten on this Forum. And re-reading the thread, I don't see any comments attacking Greenwald. A number of posters (including RidingCoaches) seem to indicate that "four-finger braking" is still expected teaching in both the BRC and ERC, even if those RidingCoaches vary the number of fingers depending on the bike they are riding. That teaching IS dogma. It may well be a solid plan for beginners. It may also be a solid plan for "experienced" riders if they have had no instruction, never read a book on riding, maybe don't even have a license. My guess is that few members of BMW MOA are in those categories. I question placing that unequivitable opinion on braking in the Motosafe column.

Greenwald, I am not planting a target on your back. I only know you by what I've read, but would guess you are a great guy and and a very competent rider. Care to share your comments on the above?

 

[greenwald]

If I understand the "expected decorum" of this Forum correctly, it is perfectly OK to disagree with or even attack ideas and positions. The reason for this is that we may all learn something.

What I have learned so far in this thread is that 1. There are modern bikes which require more than two fingers on the front brake lever. Good to know if I ever ride one. 2. There are modern bikes with MUCH more powerful front brakes than mine. Also good to know. 3. Some folks with several bikes "shift mental gears" and use the number of fingers required for that particular bike. 4. The ERC may be a disappointment for many experienced riders who both read and practice what they read. 5. There is new MSF Advanced Rider Course which I probably should take if it comes within riding distance.

Attacking an individual, I believe is (and should be) verboten on this Forum. And re-reading the thread, I don't see any comments attacking Greenwald. A number of posters (including RidingCoaches) seem to indicate that "four-finger braking" is still expected teaching in both the BRC and ERC, even if those RidingCoaches vary the number of fingers depending on the bike they are riding. That teaching IS dogma. It may well be a solid plan for beginners. It may also be a solid plan for "experienced" riders if they have had no instruction, never read a book on riding, maybe don't even have a license. My guess is that few members of BMW MOA are in those categories. I question placing that unequivitable opinion on braking in the Motosafe column.

Greenwald, I am not planting a target on your back. I only know you by what I've read, but would guess you are a great guy and and a very competent rider. Care to share your comments on the above?

Care to comment?! I probably shouldn't, but again, as the OP, you deserve some feedback.

First, some minor confusion. Your opening remarks on this latest post include "..it is perfectly OK to disagree..." and "The reason for this is that we may all learn something." Then you later state "I question placing that unequivitable opinion on braking in the Motosafe column." Sorry, but I can't tell if your signaling a 'left,' a 'right' or just have your hazard flashers on?!

As for the 'target on my back' paranoia, you had the best of intentions in your original inquiry, but if my 2,000 word article didn't come across convincingly, challenging me in this arena (the Forum) wasn't going to go well, and it didn't.

Finally, as for 'dogma,' - not the sort of term I would employ as a compliment, i.e. .......

Dogma : the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or by extension by some other group or organization. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practioner or believers

"Sharing my expertise," as pmdave (David Hough) so graciously phrased it, of course comes with the expectation that there will be disagreement or debate (and there should be). You were not the one who got personal and harshly characterized my training experience as 'dogma' - stop apologizing for it.

Let's move on - aren't we overdue for an oil thread or helmet discussion?!

 

[gunnert]

I'll join in stating I'm a two finger rider ALL the time; whether on the Beemer or Vtwin. By all the time I mean two fingers rest on the brake lever and three fingers operate the throttle. I adapted to this riding style years ago while riding in heavy traffic. My logic being it saves the reaction time to move the hand from the throttle to the brake lever. On the Beemer I ride with custom levers, the brake lever shortened to accommodate two fingers and not cover the other three.
I appreciate the MSF courses as they have to teach a standard that will work for everyone.

 

[ANDYVH]

Ok, I gotta jump into the fray on this one, as an 18 year MSF instructor (who has also worked with Kevin Greenwald). This late in the post most of the comments already touch on the issues, being:
1. The BRC is a BASIC rider course, so we teach techniques that are broad based and easy to learn. The first part is learning good basic riding skills. Two finger braking WIHT throttle actuation is NOT a basic skill and is far more complex to teach, especially at the BRC level, and for the mix of riders we coach.
2. Four finger braking, again at the BRC level does minimize throttle action during braking. I have had SO many new rider students that attempt throttle and braking control at the same time, such that neither control is accurate and profficient. That control comes over time and miles.
3. Muscle memory and having all the potential braking when needed is a big one. I have had MANY students that never realized how much front brake they have and how effective it can be, when used properly with the rear brake. The rear brake is there mostly for bike stability in my opinion, but also why give up that last 30% of braking power?

Now, I have also taught many ERCs. Here I look mostly for braking capability and profficiency. If I see the rider does not acheive what is basic good braking skill with their techniques, then yes I will revert to four-finger basics and coach up from there. I have had many ERC students with what I consider marginal braking skills at best. Most all are surprised by how much MORE braking they can do when done right. In many cases, again depending on the rider, bike, strength, etc, four-finger braking results in the rider acheiving better braking skills. In both the ERC and BRC though, I'd say almost ALL riders simply brake to within their "comfort level" while never realizing how much they can really do with proper techniques. Many never pull that front brake lever back as much as it can, as quickly as they can, to get the full capability of braking. In that, I feel, many many riders get themselves in trouble when the BIG braking event does happen. Then, if the right techniques and capabilities were not trained, practiced and developed, we hear stories like "there was nothing I could do, I could never stop in time, hadda lay it down (BIGGEST lie in riding)."

Again, back to the BRC and basic skills, is why we teach four-finger braking. It is the basic skill we all can develop from. As skill and profficiency develop and increase the rider can find and learn what works best. But again, again, it comes down to learning the right techniques, training with those techniques, honing those skills far beyond your "comfort level of braking" and developing the skills until they are almost automatic for the moment. I myself mostly 4-finger brake, but I vary my techniques for the riding at hand. Sometimes its two-finger with simultaneous throttle control, such as trail braking. But that is NOT a basic skill in any measure.

 

[WooDmEn]

4 fringers v. 2 fingers

You will see this in the June MotoSAfe: Four fingers for stopping - four fingers working at 50% +/- effort provide more percisions than 2 fingers working at 100% +/-. That is the fundamental skill, and advianced skills are built atop the fundatmental skills. That said, consider four fingers for stopping, or potential stoppong events, i.e. dangersous intgersctions, etc.

Then, consider 2 ( or one or three) fingers for speed adjustments, such as downshhifting to set corner entry speed and other traffic events that call for speed reductions ath are NOT sopping events.

Not a big deal, but worth considering.

Wiles, MNotoSafe editor

 

[mneblett]

A thread back from the dead!

I ride with four fingers poised over the brake at all times for a reason not previously mentioned here:

Instantaneous readiness to apply the brake. A side advantage is that I don't have to worry or deal with a couple fingers behind the lever interfering with the lever squeeze or instinct causing me to delay the braking to get the fingers wrapped around the throttle clear.

Real world: Yes, it makes a difference in reaction time. In 30+ years of combat commuting in DC, I've had at least 3 events when someone did something stupid and the few milliseconds' advantage gained by having four fingers at the ready was the difference between a near miss and contact (i.e., literally down to inches).

I've heard the fine throttle control arguments for two-finger braking, but frankly I don't get that. I have excellent throttle control with four fingers on the brake lever -- in fact, I'd wager than it's better than some, especially when going over bumps, as rather than the suspension/body/arm movement causing minor throttle movements, having fingers resting on the lever provides a stable "reference" position that tends to minimize unintended throttle motions.

Full disclosure: I'm a former MSF instructor. I taught (and believed in) four fingers on the lever at all times. The difference between me and some others is that I believe it a good thing on the street for experienced riders, too -- i.e., not just something to improve throttle/brake control for novices on a range.

 

[greenwald]

A thread back from the dead!

I ride with four fingers poised over the brake at all times for a reason not previously mentioned here:

Instantaneous readiness to apply the brake. A side advantage is that I don't have to worry or deal with a couple fingers behind the lever interfering with the lever squeeze or instinct causing me to delay the braking to the fingers wrapped around the throttle clear.

Real world: Yes, it makes a difference in reaction time. In 30+ years of combat commuting in DC, I've had at least 3 events when someone did something stupid and the few milliseconds' advantage gained by having four fingers at the ready was the difference between a near miss and contact (i.e., literally down to inches).

I've heard the fine throttle control arguments for two-finger braking, but frankly I don't get that. I have excellent throttle control with four fingers on the brake lever -- in fact, I'd wager than it's better than some, especially when going over bumps, as rather than the suspension/body/arm movement causing minor throttle movements, having fingers resting on the lever provides a stable "reference" position that tends to minimize unintended throttle motions.

Full disclosure: I'm a former MSF instructor. I taught (and believed in) four fingers on the lever at all times. The difference between me and some others is that I believe it a good thing on the street for experienced riders, too -- i.e., not just something to improve throttle/brake control for novices on a range.

Well said. 'Real-world' validation of four finger braking throughout all your motorcycling years - not just a 'beginner skill.'

It's a proven principle in the training arena that "When the sh## hits the fan, you don't 'rise' to the occasion - you sink to the level of your habits." You can't have two or three 'styles' of braking, dependant on your speed or location, and then expect your best performance (the superior grip and pressure of four fingers) when you need it most - during that split second of an emergency.

Problem is that's a hard sell in the real world, once poor/lazy braking habits have become routine and part of somone's riding comfort zone. That seamless transition of basic skills to life-long habits is the "Holy Grail" of the motorcycle training experience.

That said, it is unlikely you will change the minds of those who brake with two fingers - I've seen fanatical resistance to that in ERC's and on forums. Probably why I teach very few of them any more (I've chosen to do just three in 2012 at the 2 locations I instruct at).

I prefer to concentrate on new riders - clean slates if you will - need to "catch 'um while they're young" and impress upon them that 'basics' never change. Posture, head turns, combination braking, proper path of travel, etc. are constants at any level of experience for street riding.

Admittedly, off-road and track-riding techniques can be different - change the game and you get to change the rules.

But the streets will always be the streets.

Ride safe and often, Mark.

 

[racer7]

Having gotten my first bike years before there were mc endorsements or helmet laws and done some dirt racing in the early years and done way too many hours ($) on tracks with cars since I find that most of my street habits are what I think of as dumbed down or relaxed track / racing habits.

The first different skill a track teaches is vision- the need to see only what matters at speed because the brain cannot fully process everything otherwise (you'll get tunnel vision and be erratic as heck if you try). What one needs to see is different on the street but the principle applies (why we scan for danger) and the slow street speeds give one plenty of time to process if you're adapted to higher speeds. My riding/driving brain operates as a "track speed" processor out of habit so easily chips in a useful safety margin on the street.

The second different skill and the subject here is braking. Braking deep into corners and using a full panoply of thottle and brake skills (sometimes left foot braking plus throttle in a car) are an absolute necessity to fast times and protecting position. I can't forget this stuff all of a sudden and revert to only straight line braking, no trail braking, 4 fingers, etc on the street- I'd have to become a different person and I'm not all that schizo by nature...(How you train is how you react) Of course I don't press hard on public roads- that's inviting disaster if for no other reason than I don't have all those essential corner workers watching around blind turns and ready to throw the yellow....Once again, skills honed at higher speeds chip in a safety margin on the street. I haven't had to go full brakes at any time in a long while on the street. On the track full brakes (or close to full because tires have to be preserved) is common but only rarely involves a complete stop to zero....

I understand the dilemma for mc instructors- its not 1 on 1 semi custom instruction. And for sure newbs have a heck of a time using a brake hard enough period, let alone with 2 fingers (I used to also teach street skills in cars and never once had a novice apply brakes hard enough initally- they generally act like the pedal is made of eggshells). But my size 9 hands don't comfortably and quickly get 4 on the lever of my RT anyway- do all rest of you have size 11s, run the levers way close to the bars or what?

20 to 30 ft longer I'd believe- bad braking habits are very very common. But do they get a cert without fixing that???

 

[motorman587]

I'm really curious why Greenwald (November ON Motosafe article) and other MSF coaches are so adament about 4-finger braking for experienced riders with normal finger strength and decent front brakes. Surely they know they know that a number of authors (David Hough, Ken Condon and Lee Parks in my library) strongly recommend using TWO fingers on the front brake lever, both for smoothness in transitioning between throttle and brake and also reduced time in getting on the brake.

Assuming you can bring your front tire to the point of sliding (or activating the ABS) on dry pavement with two fingers, is there another reason for using four fingers that I and the above authors have missed? This is real question. No intention to "flame" anyone.

The "two finger" folks put forth very cogent arguments for their position. The "four finger" people need to do the same. And here is your opportunity.

I will add my .02$, if you want to read it. Been a Ridercoach since 1998 and a motor cop instructor since 1994. I like the four fingers on everything I use, lawnmower, screwdriver, and other "tools". What made me a believer is a school where we did hard stops at 60 mph, and I can tell you that the brake level went to the handle bar. So if I had my two fingers near the handle bar I would have never been able to come to a hard stop. I am also a beleiver that what you practice is what you do in a panic. Just remember MSF or any other school provide technics which you, the rider, has to find will work for you. The old saying, "more than one way to skin a cat". 2 or 4 fingers?? put it in that riding tool box and use what ever works for you.

 

[bikerfish1100]

you have finer control of the brake lever when using 4 fingers than when using only 2.

 

[roborider]

I prefer 4 but have a bad habit of using two. I think I need to tape my glove fingers together as a training aid. My reason is the "fingers pinched in the lever" which as happened to me.

 

[oldnslow]

Let me hijack this 2 year old thread with these comments. I see lots of talk about 2 or 4 fingers, but no mention of what I consider even more relevant; brake lever position. I see many of my friends just ride their bikes with the brake and clutch lever in what ever position it was in when they bought the bike, and that position is usually too high, IMO. One friend complained of her clutch arm getting sore in stop and go traffic. I checked her clutch perch location, and she had to rotate her wrist on the grip to grab the lever! We lowered the lever about 15 degrees, and like magic, no more sore arm.

For me, I set my street bikes up by lowering both levers, then sit naturally with fingers extended in a natural reach, then bring the levers up til they touch my fingers, then just a smidge more, and call it good.,

Sorry if I am preaching to the choir on this one.

 

[BCKRider]

You will see this in the June MotoSAfe: Four fingers for stopping - four fingers working at 50% +/- effort provide more percisions than 2 fingers working at 100% +/-. That is the fundamental skill, and advianced skills are built atop the fundatmental skills. That said, consider four fingers for stopping, or potential stoppong events, i.e. dangersous intgersctions, etc.

Then, consider 2 ( or one or three) fingers for speed adjustments, such as downshhifting to set corner entry speed and other traffic events that call for speed reductions ath are NOT sopping events.

Not a big deal, but worth considering.

Wiles, MNotoSafe editor

As the OP, I too am glad to see this thread revived. What is completely clear, to me at least, is that there are a number of different methods which work well for different riders on the same bike; or one rider on different bikes.

Roger's suggestion that a rider might want to use a different number of fingers on a given bike - because he was planning to slow rather than stop - rings false to me. A "slow down" can occasionally turn into a "quick stop." If you need three or four fingers for a "quick stop" on a particular bike, that should be the same fingers you use to slow for a corner. Build in the habits you need when the worst case scenario occurs.

Spring is here; us northerners now have our bikes licenced. Find a parking lot or dead-end road and practice your "quick stops" with all the finger combinations mentioned. If you typically use some form of "throttle control," be sure to engage that too.

The only important answer to "how many fingers on the front break lever" is what works best for you on a given bike. And the only way to find that answer is to practice quick stops, trying different finger combinations in a safe environment.

 

[roborider]

....what I consider even more relevant; brake lever position.

It's off topic but spot on. I always adjust mine to a natural feel at the wrist, especially the clutch since that hand does not rotate.