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Forbidden topics?

Bob T said:
In fact, I am just a noob here, and I probably shouldn't even be sharing my opinion on this.
Hope I haven't offended anyone...I think I'll just sit down now...:wave
Click to expand...

On the contrary... your time here should mean nothing.. though there are some who think it gives them some sort of psuedo rank or power.... everyone has an equal right to state their opinion on this forum, in my view, as long as you are a "registered user." That means you paid your dues to the club -- and get the right to say what you want.

The only people with more or additional power should be the duly elected, volunteering their time, board members.

That being said... we all also have the right to value others opinions as we seem fit. I tend to value the opinions of people who are helpful, volunteer their time (either through typing on a forum, via the anonymous book, all the way up to working major events for riders), people who remain calm and objective when discussing subjects, etc.

I agree with what Nathan said -- let's be honest, claiming to be passionate on a topic is very often used an excuse for emotionally-charged irrationality.

All that being said, I'm sorry that there isnt a more no holds barred portion of the forum. The one thing I have noticed about this forum is that I never have to read anything I dont want to.... maybe its different for others and that is how they end up getting offended.
 
After seeing the list, I'm disappointed we can't talk about guns. Especially since so many of our ranks are police/military, either active or retired & I'm sure many more carry while on the road. That would be different than talking about gun control as a political topic, but I can understand how it could degenerate... I guess you could compare to someone headed to the rally asking where the Catholic church was, vs. "my god is better" talk...

But that's OK, I like talking about bikes. :bikes
 
WeÔÇÖve had threads in the open forums that have dealt with the forbidden topics at length. Many are still there.

Guns have made it to over 100 posts before ending up in the pound in a couple of cases. One dealt with riders packing for personal protection on trips and another about the possibility of carrying a varmint rifle on a GS and legally riding off to do some hunting.

Religion comes up on a regular basis. It seems not to be so much a forbidden topic as how it is handled in the conversation and how it is perceived by viewers. Karma threads violate some peopleÔÇÖs religious beliefs because they include the term Karma.

Politics goes on all the time. This thread is a kind of political discussion. International relations played a key part in a heated but largely within the bounds discussion of the ON cover picture and related story about touring in Iran. Party politics seems to be the verboten variety that sends you to the dog house very quickly.

You can work through StatdawgÔÇÖs list and find examples that are still on the forum outside of the dog house. What we are missing in this is the third party in the discussion.

We can quickly point out threads that have been sent to the pound for one reason or another. Many did not deal with the topics on the list but displayed really bad behavior according to our rules of engagement. Many of the ones in the pound made it there because they crossed the line of some viewerÔÇÖs sensibilities and where red flagged. I will admit I have flagged threads and comments to the mods. It made sense at the time and with possibly one exception I would do it again given the rules around here.

Instead of discussing the forumÔÇÖs version of the 7 words you canÔÇÖt say on television maybe we should talk about how we react as lurkers when we stumble into a thread and are taken aback by what is going on in it.
 
B1Pilot said:
On the contrary... your time here should mean nothing.. though there are some who think it gives them some sort of psuedo rank or power.... everyone has an equal right to state their opinion on this forum, in my view, as long as you are a "registered user." That means you paid your dues to the club -- and get the right to say what you want.
Click to expand...

i don't think, i know these 6000 odd posts give me more power, i can feel it coursing through my veins
 
I'll give you a forbidden topic. BMW's connection to Nazi Germany. And, heavens forbid, never post a picture of an R75 with a German soldier anywhere near it. According to this forum that's the height of naughtiness because it "offends" a lot of members. Just to be safe, never whisper that there was an R75. Don't remind people that BMW used concentration camp slave labor to stay in business. And stay away from the fact that BMW put their slavery generated WWII profits in Swiss banks to finance their post WWII glory.

Heck it bothers me enough to by a Honda. But then, there is that Pearl Harbor nastiness which offends me. Okay, maybe a Ducati! But then, the Italians were allied with the evil R75 riding Nazis, which offends me terribly. How about a Triumph? Maybe, but with the advent of the new American Tea Party, I'm all newly offended about the original tea party, so it just ain't right.

Hell, might as well ride a Harley. But Jerry Kramer was offsides when Bart Starr scored against the Cowboys in the Ice Bowl, so I'm offended by Wisconsin, too.

Anything offensive about Schwinn?
 
mistercindy said:
Anything offensive about Schwinn?
Click to expand...

Yes I find Schwinn very Offensive and here's why.

Giant Bicycle History
Giant Models

In 1971, Japanese educated engineer King Liu had just seen his eel farming business destroyed by a typhoon. He got some partners together and managed to raise $100,000 to start a bicycle manufacturing company outside the port city of Taichung in Taiwan . They called the small company Giant. Chinese born Tony Lo, 24, sold Liu his trading company and became part owner and a manager for the fledgling bicycle factory. One of Giant's earliest clients was West Coast Cycle. Giant manufactured the Nishiki.

Giant saw Schwinn turn to Japanese manufacturers in 1972 as demand outpaced Schwinn's Chicago plant at the outset of the American bicycle boom. Giant began courting the biggest name in bikes the following year. An order from Schwinn would legitimize the startup. It took four more years. Giant produced its first Schwinn World ten-speed in 1977 and Schwinn was impressed with the quality.

At the beginning of the 1980s Giant was manufacturing 100,000 bicycles per year for Schwinn. When Schwinn's workforce went on strike in the fall of 1980, Giant shipped Schwinn 80,000 bikes in five months. Production returned to normal after the strike, but Schwinn's aging manufacturing capabilities were not being upgraded. Giant could produce chrome-moly frames. Chicago Schwinn could not. The American company became increasingly reliant on the Taiwanese manufacturer, sharing both manufacturing and design expertise. In the fall of 1982, Giant shipped 130,000 BMX Schwinn Predators, Schwinn's first successful BMX entrant. By the end of the year, Schwinn shifted most of its production to Giant and closed the Chicago plant.

In 1984, Giant produced Schwinn's first chrome-moly mountain bikes, the Sierra and High Sierra. They were an instant success and unit sales triple three years in a row. Giant shipped half a million bikes to Schwinn that year, 2/3 of Schwinn's sales. In 1985, Giant produced 1 million bikes, most of which went to Schwinn. By 1986, Schwinn depended on Giant for 80% of its inventory.

Meanwhile, the Giant label was on very few of the bikes the company was turning out. They had a reputation for quality within the industry, but actual riders did not demand a Taiwanese built Giant. As early as 1981, Lo began fostering the Giant brand name. It was launched in Europe in 1986. In 1985, the unimaginable occurred. Schwinn and Giant began negotiating the terms of a Schwinn-Giant joint brand. The deal was outlined, but never came to fruition. It did, however, mark a major turning point. Giant was now an equal of Schwinn's.

The tide had turned. Schwinn knew it and began evasive maneuvers. In 1987 the American cycle company struck up a deal with China Bicycles (est. 1984) that gave Schwinn a 1/3 equity stake and promised to shift the majority of its manufacturing to the new company. But it was too late. Giant could put out 1 million bicycles in a year. Schwinn could barely sell that many in 1987. Giant put all of its brunt behind the Giant brand and went head to head with Schwinn on its own soil. By 1991, Giant was selling 300,000 branded units, a little more than half as many bicycles in America as Schwinn who would declare bankruptcy the following year.

In the mid 1990s Giant fully lived up to its name. At $380 million in annual sales, Giant was the largest bicycle manufacturer in the world.
Source:
No Hands, The Rise and Fall of the Schwinn Bicycle Company, An American Institution, by Judith Crown and Glenn Coleman, 1996
"God (can I say God),I miss the tavern
 
mistercindy said:
I'll give you a forbidden topic. BMW's connection to Nazi Germany. And, heavens forbid, never post a picture of an R75 with a German soldier anywhere near it. According to this forum that's the height of naughtiness because it "offends" a lot of members. Just to be safe, never whisper that there was an R75. Don't remind people that BMW used concentration camp slave labor to stay in business. And stay away from the fact that BMW put their slavery generated WWII profits in Swiss banks to finance their post WWII glory.

Heck it bothers me enough to by a Honda. But then, there is that Pearl Harbor nastiness which offends me. Okay, maybe a Ducati! But then, the Italians were allied with the evil R75 riding Nazis, which offends me terribly. How about a Triumph? Maybe, but with the advent of the new American Tea Party, I'm all newly offended about the original tea party, so it just ain't right.

Hell, might as well ride a Harley. But Jerry Kramer was offsides when Bart Starr scored against the Cowboys in the Ice Bowl, so I'm offended by Wisconsin, too.

Anything offensive about Schwinn?
Click to expand...



The power of third parties is aptly shown by the ÔÇ£Ice BowlÔÇØ as Jerry Krammer was not offside because no matter what the rule book said at the time no referee called him offside.

182526939_JkRJz-Ti.gif


The example of the R75 picture is an interesting one to discuss. I remember the thread and the response it drew. The outrage was heartfelt and even understandable. The curious thing about the picture itself is the example sited is not the first time that particular picture has appeared on the forum. I have not hunted to find the other examples but to the best of my knowledge it still exists in a few other threads.

While I can understand the mods decision to kill the thread given the very vocal outrage, I have to agree we missed the opportunity to explore and understand the darker applications of our beloved Roundel and its products. BMW has had to deal with the issue itself at many levels. It actively produced weapons in two world wars for the loosing German side. Yesterday, November 30, it acknowledged and celebrated the investment of money by Herbert Quandt in 1960 that saved the company from bankruptcy or a hostile takeover by Mercedes. Over the years BMW and the Quandt family have had to deal with questions about where that money came from; drug manufacturing that included selling to and developing drugs for the Third Reich.

The key reason I can swallow the killing of the thread is, rightly or wrongly based, the objection was posted out in the open in the thread. It was not a silent back door lobby of values.

Problems with Schwinn? Yes. In 1931 Ignaz Schwinn, owner of Schwinn Bicycles and the Excelsior-Henderson motorcycle company, called a meeting and with no explanation why stopped production of the most innovative lines of motorcycles at the time. At best Schwinn was misguided at worst we are left to believe he turned anti-motorcycle.
:evil



geisterfahrer said:
No motor, therefore not a motorcycle, therefore not relevant to any part of this forum :nyah
Click to expand...

P.S.
Schwinn is back in the motorized two wheel business. I have a picture of one I saw in West Bend during the rally someplace on SmugMug and have posted it on the forum. They are fair game for discussion, even in the Motorrad sub-forum
:rofl
 
For the record, I find this thread fascinating.

One of the things I have seen over the last several years is that this forum is becoming self (member) policing/correcting. That is totally cool and opens up a lot of oppurtunity for the members who post here and makes the jobs of the mod volunteers much easier and pleasurable.

:thumb
 
Oldhway said:
For the record, I find this thread fascinating.

One of the things I have seen over the last several years is that this forum is becoming self (member) policing/correcting. That is totally cool and opens up a lot of oppurtunity for the members who post here and makes the jobs of the mod volunteers much easier and pleasurable.

:thumb
Click to expand...

A swing of the pendulum you have helped Steve.

I took DonÔÇÖt Go There at its name value and did not go there. I supported and helped with the Tavern and for the most part do not miss it.

What I miss is the forum as it was when I first arrived. We did largely self moderate. We did talk about all of the topics on the list. As the membership grew we loss the sense of self moderation and the rules became required to keep the place MOA civil. The perception of the forum members being the ÔÇÿbastard stepchildrenÔÇÖ of the association is not without cause of our own. That was in the past and I donÔÇÖt think we deserve that designation now.

In the process I hoped and argued for the moderation and control of behavior not content. For a time we have had the moderation of both behavior and content. I must tip my helmet to the mods and in particular Steve ÔÇô Oldhwy for how they have handled some recent hot button threads. Time outs have replaced immediate trips to the pound and we have been given the chance to self moderate if not always come to open agreement in them.
 
Mika said:
The example of the R75 picture is an interesting one to discuss. I remember the thread and the response it drew. The outrage was heartfelt and even understandable. The curious thing about the picture itself is the example sited is not the first time that particular picture has appeared on the forum. I have not hunted to find the other examples but to the best of my knowledge it still exists in a few other threads.

While I can understand the mods decision to kill the thread given the very vocal outrage, I have to agree we missed the opportunity to explore and understand the darker applications of our beloved Roundel and its products. BMW has had to deal with the issue itself at many levels. It actively produced weapons in two world wars for the loosing German side. Yesterday, November 30, it acknowledged and celebrated the investment of money by Herbert Quandt in 1960 that saved the company from bankruptcy or a hostile takeover by Mercedes. Over the years BMW and the Quandt family have had to deal with questions about where that money came from; drug manufacturing that included selling to and developing drugs for the Third Reich.

The key reason I can swallow the killing of the thread is, rightly or wrongly based, the objection was posted out in the open in the thread. It was not a silent back door lobby of values.
Click to expand...
I thinik we're discussing different threads. The thread I'm referring to was about people interested in taking a motorcycle ride following Che Guevara's ride through South America. As I read through the thread, which lasted several pages and days, I noticed that nobody discussed of the propriety of honoring an anti-American terrorist responsible for the murder and displacement of hundreds of thousands of Cubans for Fidel Castro.

So, I made that point with a reply that (paraphrasing now) if its okay to create a great ride based on Geuvara, then why not do a ride following Nazi Germany's path through France. With the comment I posted a picture of a German soldier riding an R75. That was it. No pictures of the holocaust, no dead bodies, just a German soldier on a bike.

My post was erased almost immediately on the grounds that it was offensive. But everything with Guevara remained. Others caught on, though, and the thread was eventually removed. But it struck me how just the mention of BMW and Naziism was offensive, but a lengthy thread on Guevara was okay. Guevara supported the violent overthrow of the United States, and that was seemingly okay with the BMWMO of America.

Don't get me wrong, I'd just as soon both topics be okay. But tolerating one terrorist and not another is hypocritical.



Mika said:
The power of third parties is aptly shown by the “Ice Bowl” as Jerry Krammer was not offside because no matter what the rule book said at the time no referee called him offside.

182526939_JkRJz-Ti.gif
Click to expand...



Homerism and highway robbery. :D

basher_packers.gif
 
That is what made me a bad Mod. I never recognized the stuff that would offend people because I wrongly assumed they were like me. Granted I only had Midwest and Airheads, what could be said offensive there? :ha
Well it turns out there were some things.

That being said, I am glad I am not now, as it gave me opinions of people I have never met, and I did not like that. I have seen people here that should have been great friends in real life but they got off on the wrong foot here.
Oh well.

Not for me.
I want to meetcha[/Wisconsin-ese] in person.
:wave
 
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