saab93driver
tudo beleza
PUDGYPAINTGUY said:
I'll be pushing up daisies b4 that day arrives. I've been to India on business in 2003. No thanks on the RE.
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I'll be pushing up daisies b4 that day arrives. I've been to India on business in 2003. No thanks on the RE.
K
KYBEAMER
Guest
china?
Excuse me for asking, but there seems to be an awful lot of folks on here defending the outsourcing of everyting to China. Isnt China still a communist country? And if so how come everyone in our country is so willing to do business with the enemy? I take it communism is still our enemy.Or is that only when it is convenient? I say if we are going to outsource, good lord, at least do so with a country that is friendly to the U.S.A.! Or one we have already whipped their butts! i.e. Germany,Japan etc.
Excuse me for asking, but there seems to be an awful lot of folks on here defending the outsourcing of everyting to China. Isnt China still a communist country? And if so how come everyone in our country is so willing to do business with the enemy? I take it communism is still our enemy.Or is that only when it is convenient? I say if we are going to outsource, good lord, at least do so with a country that is friendly to the U.S.A.! Or one we have already whipped their butts! i.e. Germany,Japan etc.
Was a war declared...
It's easy to see how some folks can think we are at war with China: the relations we had with Chiang Kai-chek, Mao, our current relations with our friends on Taiwan, the number of Americans that lost their jobs to Chinese outsourcing (whether our govt. cares or not), the number of Americans that were killed by Chinese in the Korean Conflict (as they call it in the U.N.), what our troops went through at Chosen Reservoir, their almost every day obstacles in the U.N., the list goes on and on. I'm not saying all their parts are inferior, but you have to admit, their industry is still emerging. While our economies are tied, our governments are not exactly in bed with each other.
These are complex times and such are our relations with China. Perhaps some day I'll buy a Chinese ball bearing with the same ease I bought my last Honda, but it will take a while. That's not to say I don't buy Chinese products, of course I do. But I treat each product differenlty.
I can also see how some folks would be cautious about a Chinese ball bearing. Have you read about Chinese cars? Even Business Week has reservations about the Chinese car. http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/may2005/nf20050526_0195_db016.htm
Easy
Big Empty, Texas
It is in vain to expect our prayers to be heard, if we do not strive as well as pray.
Aesop (620 BC-560 BC)
It's easy to see how some folks can think we are at war with China: the relations we had with Chiang Kai-chek, Mao, our current relations with our friends on Taiwan, the number of Americans that lost their jobs to Chinese outsourcing (whether our govt. cares or not), the number of Americans that were killed by Chinese in the Korean Conflict (as they call it in the U.N.), what our troops went through at Chosen Reservoir, their almost every day obstacles in the U.N., the list goes on and on. I'm not saying all their parts are inferior, but you have to admit, their industry is still emerging. While our economies are tied, our governments are not exactly in bed with each other.
These are complex times and such are our relations with China. Perhaps some day I'll buy a Chinese ball bearing with the same ease I bought my last Honda, but it will take a while. That's not to say I don't buy Chinese products, of course I do. But I treat each product differenlty.
I can also see how some folks would be cautious about a Chinese ball bearing. Have you read about Chinese cars? Even Business Week has reservations about the Chinese car. http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/may2005/nf20050526_0195_db016.htm
Easy
Big Empty, Texas
It is in vain to expect our prayers to be heard, if we do not strive as well as pray.
Aesop (620 BC-560 BC)
soffiler
New member
Reality check.
1) globalized logistics
2) globalized information
3) Chinese industrialization
First of all, we can move "things" around the WORLD relatively efficiently and quickly. Second of all, the Internet and cell phones have revolutionized the way we communicate (move "information") globally. Third, the average Chinese citizen has figured out he/she'd rather live in a dorm and work a factory job than toil in the rice paddies. Unless the governments (ours, theirs) are interfering, just go ahead and leave them out of the equation. So it's not really complex at all. It's very easy to understand why we find ourselves in the position we are in here in the USA.
"Buy American" (or German if you prefer, considering the forum we're posting in) is nothing but an individual's feel-good strategy that has not a snowball's chance in Hell of changing the status quo. Most conclude that if you can't beat them, join them. Outsourcing and loss of US jobs does result. That's the way it is. Until we do declare war (economically via tariffs or sanctions or other forms of trade control) or militarily, nothing's going to change.
1) globalized logistics
2) globalized information
3) Chinese industrialization
First of all, we can move "things" around the WORLD relatively efficiently and quickly. Second of all, the Internet and cell phones have revolutionized the way we communicate (move "information") globally. Third, the average Chinese citizen has figured out he/she'd rather live in a dorm and work a factory job than toil in the rice paddies. Unless the governments (ours, theirs) are interfering, just go ahead and leave them out of the equation. So it's not really complex at all. It's very easy to understand why we find ourselves in the position we are in here in the USA.
"Buy American" (or German if you prefer, considering the forum we're posting in) is nothing but an individual's feel-good strategy that has not a snowball's chance in Hell of changing the status quo. Most conclude that if you can't beat them, join them. Outsourcing and loss of US jobs does result. That's the way it is. Until we do declare war (economically via tariffs or sanctions or other forms of trade control) or militarily, nothing's going to change.
Reality check
I agree with much of what you said, but we have a very complex relationship with China. If you don't believe me, ask the Americans that try to open a business there. Harley went through hell to get a shop there. Nor do I think we should buy Chinese ball bearings because ..." That's the way it is." That was the philosophy of Herbert Clark Hoover and "Silent Cal".
I do agree with you about buying American. You should look at all the products and make an intelligent choice before deciding.
Easy
Big Empty, Texas
A lifetime of happiness! No man alive could bear it; it would be hell on earth.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 1950)
I agree with much of what you said, but we have a very complex relationship with China. If you don't believe me, ask the Americans that try to open a business there. Harley went through hell to get a shop there. Nor do I think we should buy Chinese ball bearings because ..." That's the way it is." That was the philosophy of Herbert Clark Hoover and "Silent Cal".
I do agree with you about buying American. You should look at all the products and make an intelligent choice before deciding.
Easy
Big Empty, Texas
A lifetime of happiness! No man alive could bear it; it would be hell on earth.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 1950)
soffiler
New member
Easy said:
I don't know the Harley story, but I do know that there are ways of getting business done in China. Trying to set up a US-owned business located in China is probaby a nightmare. Better to form partnerships with existing Chinese businesses.
Easy said:
I didn't say that. What I was trying to say was that ignoring the status quo is not going to change it. If Chinese ball bearings start hitting these shores with appropriate metallurgy and tolerances, then there is no reason (other than those flag-waving reasons) not to buy them. I never meant to say you should just blindly by the Chinese stuff because "that's the way it is".
Easy said:
I look at labels all the time, despite what I know about FTC labelling rules and the way they are blatantly flaunted. I like to buy American. That's how I know so well that it's nothing more than a feel-good strategy!
C
CTHalk
Guest
Chinese metalurgy (bearings) has brought us......
Well, I still say (and feel) that I bought a BMW because of the supposed superior design, manufacture, and support. So now that my superior tranny is dead at 43K miles, I'll replace it..at my own cost. Why did it fail? Mis-aligned shaft and clutch disc. Something is 'off' enough that the two parts 'fought' each other to the point of destruction. There is NO excuse for a high-end, high-dollar motorcycle to do this (as many have). SOMEWHERE a problem in manufacturing happened. Where? In Germany? Or Beijing? While I'm replacing the tranny, I'll do the swingarm bearings. I am still in shock from seeing 'BMW-High' prices on a BMW labelled bag containing a Chinese bearing! Why do I distrust/dislike Chinese manufacturing? Well, it could be their slave-labor practices. It could be their rampant, widespread disregard for the environment (google the percentage of Chinese rivers that do not support fish life). It could be their practice of making and selling bootleg aviation grade hardware (that may very well be in a plane YOU will ride in). It may be because they have entire towns and cities making bootleg copies of goods, which are sold at a strong discount thus undermining businesses everywhere. It may be because of their human rights violations, or their genuine hatred of the American way of life (even though 'capitalism' is making them rich). When you visit China, you are given a guide that makes sure you do not see what you shouldn't see. An example: On a visit to a temple, there was a raggedy looking man selling incense outside the temple gates. After a tour of the temple, our friends' son headed for the gate to buy some incense. the guide emphatically said, 'no, don't go there. You can buy incense in the temple store. do not go out there!' Our friends' son is headstrong, and ignored the guide. He started to walk down to the gates. The guide followed him all the way outside the gates with the van, and all the way back in. Why was nobody supposed to go outside 'approved areas?' It may have been the man's deformed child, who had a large mis-shapen head with only one eye...only one place for an eye. The man said there were many children with deformities in his village, because of the pollution in the air and water. Not 'politically-correct' news for foreign visiters. How about the huge number of chinese babies that are killed every year because of the government mandated cap on the number of children a family can have (the one child per family rule)? This rule has caused a disdain for female infants; abortion, neglect, abandonment, and even infanticide have been known to occur to female infants. I could go on and on about the reasons why I don't want to financially support communist Chinese policies. I have Chinese American friends that are really good friends. It isn't racism. Just the fact that I don't want to worry about a possible sub-standard Chinese part failing in my expensive German motorcycle is reason enough to be irritated with BMW's choice to sell Chinese parts in the coveted BMW bag. Wow, I went off on that post. Before anybody starts rationalizing why it's OK to buy Chinese, I strongly suggest they actually research Chinese policies on important big issues. You will not like what you see. China does not care about playing by American or European rules, does not care about our environment, our social and moral viewpoints, or our welfare. As long as we/you spend dollars on Chinese goods, they will continue to do what they have been doing. And if they continue, it WILL impact us strongly in a negative way in the future. How soon? Hmmm...
Well, I still say (and feel) that I bought a BMW because of the supposed superior design, manufacture, and support. So now that my superior tranny is dead at 43K miles, I'll replace it..at my own cost. Why did it fail? Mis-aligned shaft and clutch disc. Something is 'off' enough that the two parts 'fought' each other to the point of destruction. There is NO excuse for a high-end, high-dollar motorcycle to do this (as many have). SOMEWHERE a problem in manufacturing happened. Where? In Germany? Or Beijing? While I'm replacing the tranny, I'll do the swingarm bearings. I am still in shock from seeing 'BMW-High' prices on a BMW labelled bag containing a Chinese bearing! Why do I distrust/dislike Chinese manufacturing? Well, it could be their slave-labor practices. It could be their rampant, widespread disregard for the environment (google the percentage of Chinese rivers that do not support fish life). It could be their practice of making and selling bootleg aviation grade hardware (that may very well be in a plane YOU will ride in). It may be because they have entire towns and cities making bootleg copies of goods, which are sold at a strong discount thus undermining businesses everywhere. It may be because of their human rights violations, or their genuine hatred of the American way of life (even though 'capitalism' is making them rich). When you visit China, you are given a guide that makes sure you do not see what you shouldn't see. An example: On a visit to a temple, there was a raggedy looking man selling incense outside the temple gates. After a tour of the temple, our friends' son headed for the gate to buy some incense. the guide emphatically said, 'no, don't go there. You can buy incense in the temple store. do not go out there!' Our friends' son is headstrong, and ignored the guide. He started to walk down to the gates. The guide followed him all the way outside the gates with the van, and all the way back in. Why was nobody supposed to go outside 'approved areas?' It may have been the man's deformed child, who had a large mis-shapen head with only one eye...only one place for an eye. The man said there were many children with deformities in his village, because of the pollution in the air and water. Not 'politically-correct' news for foreign visiters. How about the huge number of chinese babies that are killed every year because of the government mandated cap on the number of children a family can have (the one child per family rule)? This rule has caused a disdain for female infants; abortion, neglect, abandonment, and even infanticide have been known to occur to female infants. I could go on and on about the reasons why I don't want to financially support communist Chinese policies. I have Chinese American friends that are really good friends. It isn't racism. Just the fact that I don't want to worry about a possible sub-standard Chinese part failing in my expensive German motorcycle is reason enough to be irritated with BMW's choice to sell Chinese parts in the coveted BMW bag. Wow, I went off on that post. Before anybody starts rationalizing why it's OK to buy Chinese, I strongly suggest they actually research Chinese policies on important big issues. You will not like what you see. China does not care about playing by American or European rules, does not care about our environment, our social and moral viewpoints, or our welfare. As long as we/you spend dollars on Chinese goods, they will continue to do what they have been doing. And if they continue, it WILL impact us strongly in a negative way in the future. How soon? Hmmm...
flash412
Loose Cannon
I dunno about all that. During the past ten years or so, I've been to Beijing, Chengdu, Qingdao, Xiamen, Shanghai and Suzhou (several times), Hong Kong and Shenzhen (many times), plus Taiwan (more times than I care to recall), as well as many trips to South Korea and Japan, and one to Malaysia and two to Singapore. Frankly, what I see is people who are willing to WORK to make a living. China is not all that different from the rest of Asia.
I've seen that the Chinese are aware of many issues and beginning to address them, sorta like the USA back in the late 50's and 60's. Just because we have made progress, don't fault them for not being where we are. We ain't done. Neither are they. I remember the air in the USA being filthy with coal smoke in the winter.
Unions in the USA made me sick WAY before I visited China. I could tell stories about crap that union workers subjected me to while I was a non-union worker with the misfortune to have to interface with them at a Ford plant and in a hospital in Kentucky. Union workers deserve to lose their jobs overseas to people who are willing to actually WORK for a living. Trade unions have outlived their usefulness.
The sun set on the British Empire early in the last century. Better face it, the sun is setting on "the American Century" as we type.
Tell your kids to learn Mandarin. That and a degree in pretty much anything else will assure that they'll be able to earn a good living.
If nothing else, let's be democratic about this, everybody gets ONE vote. Whatever the issue, a BILLION Chinese WIN. Think about it... there are more Chinese that speak at least some English than there are Americans who speak English. Get with the program. You're WAAAY outnumbered.
I've seen that the Chinese are aware of many issues and beginning to address them, sorta like the USA back in the late 50's and 60's. Just because we have made progress, don't fault them for not being where we are. We ain't done. Neither are they. I remember the air in the USA being filthy with coal smoke in the winter.
Unions in the USA made me sick WAY before I visited China. I could tell stories about crap that union workers subjected me to while I was a non-union worker with the misfortune to have to interface with them at a Ford plant and in a hospital in Kentucky. Union workers deserve to lose their jobs overseas to people who are willing to actually WORK for a living. Trade unions have outlived their usefulness.
The sun set on the British Empire early in the last century. Better face it, the sun is setting on "the American Century" as we type.
Tell your kids to learn Mandarin. That and a degree in pretty much anything else will assure that they'll be able to earn a good living.
If nothing else, let's be democratic about this, everybody gets ONE vote. Whatever the issue, a BILLION Chinese WIN. Think about it... there are more Chinese that speak at least some English than there are Americans who speak English. Get with the program. You're WAAAY outnumbered.
K
KYBEAMER
Guest
Well said!
I applaude you CTHalk, I am glad to live in a country where we can agree, or disagree publicly. I still think it is odd that the word "communism" seems to have disappeared from our governments vocabulary in the last few years. Yesterdays enemy, (communism). todays corporate dividends maybe?
I applaude you CTHalk, I am glad to live in a country where we can agree, or disagree publicly. I still think it is odd that the word "communism" seems to have disappeared from our governments vocabulary in the last few years. Yesterdays enemy, (communism). todays corporate dividends maybe?
soffiler
New member
CTHalk said:
I can't say that slave-labor does not exist, but I can tell you that the typical Chinese factory today consists of a campus with manufacturing and dormitory buildings. The workers are provided with food and housing in addition to some wages. Most find the wages sufficient to send some home to their families still living in the boondocks and subsistence-farming.
CTHalk said:
This appears to be a very serious problem.
CTHalk said:
Here, you need to understand that they'll make pretty much whatever they can sell. The only way to control this is DON'T BUY IT. What I am saying here is that it is incumbent upon the distributors who put first-world brand names onto packaging that contains Chinese goods to perform the quality control.
CTHalk said:
Where does THAT come from? Care to elaborate?
CTHalk said:
Agree completely with you on that point.
