Accidentally braking on a curve with ABS brakes

[greenwald]

Sorry that's on the cops shoulders, if he risks life and limb for a $200 ticket, that shows poor judgment on his part. They are suppose to be there to increase safety, not throw it out the window, to save me from myself.

Although a highly publicized case in NY disagrees (so far) http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/02/carncross_motorcycle_chase_cas.html.

To add to the story, from memory. Rider clocked at approx 100 MPH on a winding country road, trooper going the other way, trooper called in pursuit to dispatch, about a mile later trooper looses control of his SUV, on a corner at over 100mph, crashes and dies. Trooper never had rider in sight with lights on. IMHO, it is a tragedy, and rider did trigger events, but is in no way directly responsible for the following events, particularly aggravated criminally negligent homicide.

Ah, if life were only that simple. I understand what you're saying, but when a violation occurs, and we (LEO's) do nothing because we might not be able to catch up, we're toasted on the spit of public opinion anyways, so might as well see if 'Mr. Hot Rod, messed up down the road.

We've even been crucified because as LEO's, we break off the chase as too dangerous, but didn't discover 'Mr. Hot Rod' dying in the field another mile down the lane.

Classic "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" world in law enforcement.

As for the case you cite, being criminally liable for a trooper who risked a curve at 100 mph to catch a speeder (poor decision in my opinion on the part of the trooper, rest his soul), the legal world has much precedent for the burden of responsibility for what your behavior could result in.

State Death Rows are full of getaway drivers from bank heists, where one of their gang members inside the bank decided to cap a guard.

Boils down to 'button pushing.' No one forces the officer to pursue, but yet the public expects it.

And many traffic stops expand well beyond the initial violation - Timothy McVeigh was pulled over for an expired license tag.

Not trying to fuel a 'Pro vs Con' debate over traffic adherance or LEO responses (be safer to start an oil thread!) - just offering a different perspective to how the world can be perceived.

 

[tinytrains]

Hey, that looks to be the exact same corner!

Yep. There is a reason people stand there shooting video all day.

 

[rx35285]

That rider reacted like he was doing something wrong, then he did something wrong. ABS wouldn't have done him, or anyone else who reacts like that, any good.

Robo, you oughta consider joining the BMWRA if you aren't already a member.

 

[pffog]

Ah, if life were only that simple. I understand what you're saying, but when a violation occurs, and we (LEO's) do nothing because we might not be able to catch up, we're toasted on the spit of public opinion anyways, so might as well see if 'Mr. Hot Rod, messed up down the road............

I agree with most of what you said, and I do have a lot of respect for cops in general, but don't thing a badge and uniform elevates them to hero status, actions do.

But I do think the Law that NY passed after this incident and made retroactive to throw this kid in prison for 7 years is VERY wrong, not the cops fault, and I too feel bad for all involved, but 2 bad decisions should not all be placed on one persons shoulder.

If the cop crashed responding to a bar fight, would one of the people involved in the fight be facing the same charges?

 

[roborider]

Robo, you oughta consider joining the BMWRA if you aren't already a member.

MOA has a better magazine!

 

[BCKRider]

I read quite often in the local paper of the RCMP breaking off a high speed chase. Usually they get the guy after he's run over a spike belt, or run into a parked car and the dog squad finds him. I think than when the chase speed starts to endanger the officer or other citizens, it is time to shut it down. Haven't read any criticism of those decisions either, though maybe they aren't published.

A friend told me today of another situation: quite a ways from any city on a rural highway under extremely icy conditions a car went off the road and over a long drop. Cops were on the scene when he (slowly) went past. Twenty minutes down the road he passed the responding ambulance. So what does an ambulance driver do under those conditions? I'm sure they are very aware that every minute that they are later decreases the chances of survival of the accident victims. But not arriving, or dying themselves, becaused they tried to go a little too fast is far worse.

I really don't envy those of you who have to make these sort of decisions. "Create no further harm" would seem best, but I understand how it can be a tough call.

 

[greenwald]

MOA has a better magazine!

You're my hero!

 

[greenwald]

I read quite often in the local paper of the RCMP breaking off a high speed chase. Usually they get the guy after he's run over a spike belt, or run into a parked car and the dog squad finds him. I think than when the chase speed starts to endanger the officer or other citizens, it is time to shut it down. Haven't read any criticism of those decisions either, though maybe they aren't published.

A friend told me today of another situation: quite a ways from any city on a rural highway under extremely icy conditions a car went off the road and over a long drop. Cops were on the scene when he (slowly) went past. Twenty minutes down the road he passed the responding ambulance. So what does an ambulance driver do under those conditions? I'm sure they are very aware that every minute that they are later decreases the chances of survival of the accident victims. But not arriving, or dying themselves, becaused they tried to go a little too fast is far worse.

I really don't envy those of you who have to make these sort of decisions. "Create no further harm" would seem best, but I understand how it can be a tough call.

You understand quite well, actually.

Good post.

 

[greenwald]

I agree with most of what you said, and I do have a lot of respect for cops in general, but don't thing a badge and uniform elevates them to hero status, actions do.

But I do think the Law that NY passed after this incident and made retroactive to throw this kid in prison for 7 years is VERY wrong, not the cops fault, and I too feel bad for all involved, but 2 bad decisions should not all be placed on one persons shoulder.

If the cop crashed responding to a bar fight, would one of the people involved in the fight be facing the same charges?

Never tried to be or aspired to be a hero - I think most LEO's don't either.

That's an individual opinion on the part of the observing public.

But I too understand what you're trying to say.

As for your analogy with the bar fight - interesting premise. Again, another perspective from which to view this incident.

Be Safe.

 

[ANDYVH]

Here is an interesting quote right fom the BMW technical report on ABS, including the EVO system: "With or without ABS - braking is only possible to a limited extent when heeled over in a corner."

 

[leesrt]

Here is an interesting quote right fom the BMW technical report on ABS, including the EVO system: "With or without ABS - braking is only possible to a limited extent when heeled over in a corner."

Heeled over?

 

[lmo1131]

yeah.. .. you know, heeled over.

 

[leesrt]

Why do they have go give a special name for what we call "turning".

 

[marchyman]

Why do they have go give a special name for what we call "turning".

Doesn't meat turning, although on a motorcycle you are usually heeled over in a turn. It is a nautical term meaning leaning typically due to the wind, whereas list is another term meaning leaning due to unbalance.

 

[globalrider]

Here is an interesting quote right fom the BMW technical report on ABS, including the EVO system: "With or without ABS - braking is only possible to a limited extent when heeled over in a corner."

Finally! What I've been saying on countess forums on the subject.

Those who know some basic physics and who also know about traction circles would have known that as well.

 

[leesrt]

Doesn't meat turning, although on a motorcycle you are usually heeled over in a turn. It is a nautical term meaning leaning typically due to the wind, whereas list is another term meaning leaning due to unbalance.

I get that but unless there's another way to turn on a motorcycle its a lot like describing a braking method for a boat but only when the bottom is wet.

 

[marchyman]

I get that but unless there's another way to turn on a motorcycle its a lot like describing a braking method for a boat but only when the bottom is wet.

Ride slow speed, somewhat common in the dirt. You'll sometimes find yourself doing full lock turns without a hint of lean. Or watch a trials rider, sometime... them folks can turn in place, again without leaning.

 

[Ken F]

Doesn't meat turning, although on a motorcycle you are usually heeled over in a turn. It is a nautical term meaning leaning typically due to the wind, whereas list is another term meaning leaning due to unbalance.

So I was "listing" coming through western Kansas with a 40-50 mph side wind?

 

[mneblett]

So I was "listing" coming through western Kansas with a 40-50 mph side wind?

No, you were heeled over -- listing is a static condition, as when a ship dead in the water is listing to port or starboard. Dynamic forces result in one being "heeled over."

 

[leesrt]

So I was "listing" coming through western Kansas with a 40-50 mph side wind?

You needed more rudder.