Accidentally braking on a curve with ABS brakes

[greenwald]

And anytime a LEO is mentioned it will spawn some sort of attack on LEOs in general. Such is the world, evidently.

So true.

Yet, I try not to take it personally. Some people have just had a bad run-in with cops. Others have run into bad cops. Still others bristle at any restriction of their 'freedoms.'

Some think it's all about revenue.

My 3+ decades on the force, I'm very proud of - spent it trying to help the less fortunate, make people feel safe, be a role model to kids and remind the bad guys that we're a 300,000 strong gang (nationwide) and we too carry guns.

Had good days and bad ..............

Wait a minute - this is a 'braking thread.'

Back to our regularly scheduled debate.

 

[ANDYVH]

Two things limit what ABS can do in curve, until the S1000RR showed up.

First, ABS systems before the S1000RR have no input to tell the ABS system how much the bike is leaning, like into a curve. So, on most ABS bikes, if the bike is leaning into a curve, it is already using a good chunk of the available traction. On a bike equipped with Gyroscopes, like the S1000RR, the ABS system may be able to limit the ABS control when the bike is leaned over.

Second, and more important, that ABS systems work on the basis that an ABS controlled wheel (whether only two on a bike or four on a car) must FIRST begin to actually slide before the ABS system engages control. ABS systems function when it senses a wheel is rotating slower at a preset thresehold slower than the other wheels. In fact, on many ABS systems control begins when a wheel is actually "slipping" 20% slower than the other wheels.

Given that, if the bike is leaned over using traction already, and a slip-thresehold is required to engage ABS control, the bike may actually begin a low-side before the ABS control can regain control. So inthe case of this rider, ABS may not have been able to help the rider avoid the low-sde. For myself, I would not rely on ABS to compensate for my cornering mistakes.

 

[Rudyjo]

It makes you wonder if the officer has been tipped off about the rider coming.
The brake lights are on and he has the car moving before the bike is even off
the pavement.

 

[racer7]

Interesting vid

Sure looks like he was well over 35 at least accelerating on that short bit heading for the corner. And the corner was certainly "doable" at his speed for anyone but a beginner. There are of course plenty of beginners on sportbikes - the 600cc types are a common "starter" bike for many newbies around here. Yikes!!

I find myself wondering if when the tried to upright the bike after spotting the LEO he accidentally grabbed some extra brake or whether he grabbed the brake first.

If the area is ridden by as many idiots as the guys familiar with it have said, its no wonder the LEO is parked there and, really, why would you do something stupid just because any vehicle is parked just off the roadway? To me, the vid is more about the riders spasticity than anything else. He either startles way too easily or is pretty green or some combination, I think.

Re the Dragon- I'm with Robo and pffog on that. Too many bikes, too many nuts sometimes, though there are so many cruiser types its probably not as bad as Mulholland is said to be (never ridden that one). Dragon is a great place to avoid especially on summer weekends when there might be 1500 bikes up there and when its covered with wet leaves. There are many better road choices in that part NC and surrounding TN, nearby GA or whatever. Re its speed limit- well you'll generally need to be over 50 to earn anything despite the 35 speed limit. Most of the LEOs are TN guys and they often just leave their radar wide open giving loads of warning to anyone with a detector despite the curves. Where they park is often predictable- the road has very few shoulder areas suitable for parking anything. Remember it is one of only 3 roads through the mountains in that part of the state and is sometimes used by 18 wheelers AND it has some turns so tight they must occupy both lanes simply to get around a corner. And its common to see local workers towing trailers. Year before last there were 5 motorcycle fatalities on that short 11 mile stretch of pavement and it is a few miles from nearby towns so accidents that are all too common (often multiples per weekend day) put a serious bite on local emergency response resources. Unlike that slide at Mulholland, going off on the Dragon can often mean going into the trees or a ditch or nearby rock wall- not many guard rails. You can find on the web discussions about competing for the shortest timed run. Last time I heard, racing on public roads is a big no no aside from being real stupid and way different from a brisk fun run. No sympathy from me for folks doing street racing. Despite that, the closest sizeable town, Robbinsville, NC is unabashedly biker friendly and you'll be welcome anyplace in or out of your gear. The Dragon is darn near the only local business and certainly, in aggregate, by far the largest. The local hotels and restaurants exist mainly for folks at the Dragon- not enough local population to support them otherwise. But Robbinsville is in a DRY county so bring your own beer for when you're done or put a few more miles on the bike and stay elsewhere (like Maggie Valley or any one of hundreds of other places).

Have never run into a "bad" cop and have had both friends and neighbors in that occupation- but I did run into a badly trained VA state kid once. He thought a scanner I had in my car was a radar detector which is illegal in VA. (About 25 yrs old and still a bit of an attitude- very different from our NC guys). Despite the fact that having a vehicle scanner is legally protected by VA state law (the same statute that makes radar detectors illegal) and my offers to allow him to examine and test the device to his satisfaction and my producing the owners manual that clearly said the device was not a radar detector, he chose to write a ticket. Well- I don't plead guilty to stuff I didn't do, he got asked a few very pointed questions by the judge and turned bright red before the judge threw it out. You will win if the law is on your side- no worries, it's all part of life.

ABS- well to me the version on my 08 RT is unimpressive but thats mostly because I've played with the best car stuff around and the bike stuff is absolutely primitive by comparison- probably close to a full decade behind what can be had with 4 wheels. My RT's is far too slow to release and also trips in too easily, IMO. Want to see truly sweet electronics- take a Nissan GTR for a track run - 4WD with very high level electronic goodies of every type- it is truly astonishing for a car so large and I'm not that easily impressed having driven a whole lot of the very high end stuff and having my own dedicated track toy.
I don't think ABS would have altered the outcome of the video but perhaps the best of traction controls plus ABS might? After all, Keith Code has reported a significant decrease in accidents at his schools AFTER switching to the BMW superbike, currently the undisputed power champion of the class. Not many sportbike choices with that stuff though and the vid bike was not so equipped. The only 2 are the BMW literbike and the new Kawasaki that is said to have predictive, not just preventative, algorithms and works quite differently from the BMW system. Will be fun to see the no doubt forthcoming track comparisons which may shed some light on which system is best for road use. pffog and Robo- I suspect you both might be interested in that comparison when available.

 

[roborider]

I had the pleasure of riding the S1000RR at Barber race track. It was a dream. SO POWERFUL! It was WAY too much engine for me, especially on the street. I never used any ABS, but I can tell you that with ABS and stability and traction control my buddy was still able to dump his in a corner.

 

[racer7]

Not surprised. Code didn't say NO accidents, just less! Even traction controls can't rewrite the laws of physics but that Nissan GTR sure comes as close as you can find on a public road.

Bet you guys had a blast!

What do you like as a trackable road bike these days if you had an unlimited budget, given the excess power of BMW re street use ? (Agreed, too. I could manage to get in plenty of doo doo with 1/3 that much power- it ain't the accel on the straightaway that's the real fun anyway.)

 

[roborider]

Well, I don't really think I can choose a trackable road bike. The S1000 and CBR1000, or even the 600cc sports bikes, are just too uncomfortable to me for street. I can't walk upright after a couple of hours.

So maybe the boxer that PFFOG rides is pretty close for both purposes. I would say that a twin (like the RC51 or BMW) is nice for the torque at lower RPMs in corners. The 600s need to be wound up to give you the torque you need post apex--pick the wrong gear and it's not easy to get back upright.

I feel about the same with dual sport bikes like the GS. I like pure dirt, pure street, and pure track. So, since you gave me an unlimited budget to work with, I say individual bikes. And given that, I'd go with my RT, an S1000RR, and a YZ250 or 450.

And speaking of dirt, I'm flying to LA to rent a dirtbike. We're riding 450 miles over 3 days through the desert to Las Vegas. Can't wait.

 

[pffog]

..............................PF:

Nice, I've added that to my roads to check out. I love the right corner at 3:10 and left at 3:40. And that's a typical southern mountain road. A white fog line and about 3 inches of shoulder, then dirt and gravel which often ends up on the road (and right at the apex). Very unforgiving but a blast and traffic and police free. I love the riding here. I never once saw a speed limit sign on the videos--45? 55?

Where is this? I can't find it on google maps. I see Richard's Ridge near Hooker Gap Road which you previously told me about, is it near there?

Also:
4:08 Bird!!!!
5:04 Another sweet hairpin

Video two seems much more technical and twisty. I need to ride this road.

I watched your "Alps Passing Primer" which was great. Missed you last year, but if you are coming down to NC/VA/TN this year I'd love to buy you a round and run up a few miles. You'd fit in well with my crew. We are doing a 3 day April Smoky ride and another in May. One of the guys is a cop, too, and he actually speaks to me!

Robo

You will not find it by Richards Ridge, that is what a couple of NC riders named it after I showed them the road, my name is Richard. One of my riding friends calls it condom road, because he says if you having that much fun, you should be wearing one

The best part is the road dumps onto another that is almost as nice, there is a solid 25-30 minutes of great road.

I plan on being down the last week of April, into the first few days of May. Going to spend some time in the Cumberland Gap area trying to find fun roads, before heading S, probably ending up at the Georgia Mtn Rally, before wandering N toward home.

 

[mattcho]

good to see that he appears ok enough...got up quick...darn adrenaline for sure...doesn't look like he had protective pants on though possibly they are kevlar jeans?

the rest of his gear seemed to hold up ok from what i can tell...good to see that it works...we should all watch the slow-mo closely. see how his right arm is between his helmet and the ground (good i guess??) and then how his hands and feet slide across the pavement. i gotta think that his jacket (maybe with elbow/arm pads), gloves, and boots helped.

it's easy to see examples like this and think that "i don't ride like that", or "dumb kids on sport bikes", etc... however, this is an interesting video and thread that shows what is thankfully a relatively minor slide. hopefully everyone is thinking about the gear they wear every time they get on a bike.

this could just as easily be the result of a dead possum in the middle of the road or any other unexpected variable that we all encounter on a regular basis.

ride safe, dress safe. i'm just sayin'.

 

[roborider]

Good point on the gear. I had a very similar lowside on my RT last year; I hit thick sand in the corner. The RT slid about 20 feet or so but only broke a footpeg. My gear did the job and now I have some beauty scrapes on both the bike and the kit.

 

[tinytrains]

This is "The Snake" near Malibu.

The crash in question I believe happened just just left of the bridge railing below the big horseshoe curve in the middle of the screen. The horseshoe curve at the top, is where most of the videoed crashes occur. The Rock Store is about a mile or two to the right.

Scott

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Malibu,+CA&aq=1&sll=33.878815,-118.324358&sspn=0.013735,0.024569&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Malibu,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.100074,-118.803824&spn=0.003105,0.005777&t=h&z=18

 

[jurgen]

This is the road up Passo Lombardo from Vinadio, Italy
Approx. same scale as the Snake in the previous post, but more fun. A dozen switchbacks in less than a mile.

http://goo.gl/maps/lGNK

 

[deilenberger]

/mod-note:

I had to fix this.. "braking on a curve with ABS breaks" - to me that's just like dragging fingernails across a blackboard..

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion..

/:end mod-note

 

[roborider]

Nice catch, Don. I was wondering about that, as errors like that mess up the search function. Nice you fixed it.

 

[lmo1131]

I had to fix this..

THANK YOU Don!

Maybe we can work on "then" and "than" next.. .. . followed closely by "their", "there", and "they're" .... .

 

[Merlin III]

So true.

Yet, I try not to take it personally. Some people have just had a bad run-in with cops. Others have run into bad cops. Still others bristle at any restriction of their 'freedoms.'

Some think it's all about revenue.

My 3+ decades on the force, I'm very proud of - spent it trying to help the less fortunate, make people feel safe, be a role model to kids and remind the bad guys that we're a 300,000 strong gang (nationwide) and we too carry guns.

Had good days and bad ..............

Wait a minute - this is a 'braking thread.'

Back to our regularly scheduled debate.

I can't argue with that. Whenever I find myself thinking that my freedoms have been restricted too much by the law, that old clich?® pops up in my head. You know the one, "the only thing that stands between order and anarchy is the thin blue line" (or something like that). For most of us, most of the time, we have a pretty good balance here in Northern North America.

All said though, IMHO, that cop could have picked a safer spot to setup both for his safety and that of the public.

 

[greenwald]

I can't argue with that. Whenever I find myself thinking that my freedoms have been restricted too much by the law, that old clich?® pops up in my head. You know the one, "the only thing that stands between order and anarchy is the thin blue line" (or something like that). For most of us, most of the time, we have a pretty good balance here in Northern North America.

All said though, IMHO, that cop could have picked a safer spot to setup both for his safety and that of the public.

Thanks for the LEO comments. Praise is so rare these days, I may spend the rest of the entire day smiling!

As for the video, the 'jerk' was still the guy on the bike.

But I see your point and agree - perhaps being stationed out of the curve's apex would have been as much about encouraging safety as the running of radar. We 'boys in blue' don't always make the best decisions either.

Ride Safe - Especially in Curves!

 

[Merlin III]

THANK YOU Don!

Maybe we can work on "then" and "than" next.. .. . followed closely by "their", "there", and "they're" .... .

"Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone"! Actually, I hate it when that happens.

 

[Merlin III]

THANK YOU Don!

Maybe we can work on "then" and "than" next.. .. . followed closely by "their", "there", and "they're" .... .

"Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone"! Oh! I forgot. This is a BMW forum.

 

[jstrube]

One forum out there has someone logged in as "Officer Spell Czech", who goes in & points out spelling errors... He doesn't post anything else...