Disappointed and Discouraged in BMW

PGlaves said:

we stored the bikes, bought a car,

Click to expand...

Dude, you and Voni truely are rock stars.

PGlaves said:

I bought a 12 year old F650 Dakar with 30K or so miles on it. I rode it a couple of years without incident. Then one day, for no apparent reason while I was riding it at roughly idle speed and about 3 or 4 miles per hour approaching to load it on a trailer it coughed once, died, and thenceforth had a locked-up engine. I still haven't had the inclination to tear it down to find the cause.

In theory I could blame BMW. No engine should ever do that. Maybe it was objecting to a trailer ride. I don't yet have a clue why/what happened.

But it is a bike out of warranty even though low mileage and is thus my probblem. Life is like that sometimes. Meanwhile it is still in the garage.

Click to expand...

Paul, you and Voni are famous for riding K75's and early oilhead bikes and putting serious mileage on them. Would you say that they are less likely to have serious roadside failures than the earlier airheads or later BMW models? The final drive on K75's was a problem - maybe fixed with better lubricants if you caught it soon enough, but a better replacement was available from Bruno for under $1000. Stock saddles have always been bad on almost all BMW's. Clutches needed attention every 40000 miles, and given time the alternator might need cleaning up. But other than that, just basic maintenance, maybe clutch cable replacement, and you were good to go. At least that was my experience on the '87 K75 I bought used as my first BMW. It died in a crash and I replaced it with a '91 K100RS, which now has its problems.

Would you feel more confident on a 20 year old low mileage K75 than an 8 year old lower mileage R1200 for a cross continent trip?

I was shocked to read the OP's post. I can certainly understand being disappointed at the two failures, but he purchased a used bike. I am guessing that if he had been the original owner and had all maintenance documentation that just maybe BMW would have offered something, but maybe they wouldn't have. The bike was well out of it's warranty period.

I think BMW has recently demonstrated a willingness to be fair with regard to known issues when they greatly extended the warranty on the fuel strip sensors on a large number of motorcycles. If the valve issue was a common, known problem the outcome may have been different for the OP. From the manufacturers standpoint they have no way or knowing how the bike was actually treated, what type of fuel may have been used, additives, etc.

I have been prone to romanticizing the good old days and old bikes from time to time. I have owned and loved some airheads. I believe that many modern bikes are heads and tails better in many ways than the bikes of old though.

BCKRider said:

Paul, you and Voni are famous for riding K75's and early oilhead bikes and putting serious mileage on them. Would you say that they are less likely to have serious roadside failures than the earlier airheads or later BMW models? <snip>

Would you feel more confident on a 20 year old low mileage K75 than an 8 year old lower mileage R1200 for a cross continent trip?

Click to expand...

That is an excellent question. I believe that millions of miles of experience globally has shown that the BMW K75 vintage 1986-1995 is as reliable a motorcycle as almost any that has been built. And I do think they are more reliable overall than some of the later models. The two chronic issues that come to my mind are the rear splines on the driveshaft need frequent lubrication or they will fail; and the cooling fans come on so seldom that they can get a grungy front bearing and melt the brush holders when it tries to come on.

Edit: Final drives on them don't fail, alternator rotors and rectifiers don't fail, valves seldom need adjusting, and the electronics seem bullet proof.

So, in the big picture I expect less maintenance to be required and expect to have fewer problems on a good K75 than virtually any other BMW. As for that cross-continent trip, that is too short an exposure to possibilities of failure to rule out any BMW in good repair at the start. But simply playing the odds - I'd take the K75.

And I have for our summer travels the past two years since the F650 unceremoniously rejected me in my time of need.

PGlaves said:

I still haven't had the inclination to tear it down to find the cause.

Click to expand...

This has the makings of a great story. And you're going to write some special pieces now and then, eh?

Buy a Honda. New, if you can swing it, but used is OK since they pretty dang reliable. (OK, here comes twelve posts from folks who had a Honda that broke its widget spring or something) Just my opinion.

na1g said:

Buy a Honda.

Click to expand...

The snow up there must be gettin' to you.

As far as BMW customer service calling back to say he's not covered, they're in a no win situation, if they didn't respond to his letter then the complaint would be that they never responded.

Discouragement in the ranks

I'm somewhat reluctant to respond to this, but I sometimes have to chuckle when I hear complaints about modern vs older BMWs. My main "ride" is a /5. i have no idea how many miles are on it and really don't care. The key thing is that it gets all the routine maintenance suggested. I put it together from a pile of spare parts, found in the back of my garage. Rode it to the last two National Rallys with no real problems other than a reluctant starter.
With Paul's comments in mind, the diaphragms do occasionally fail, but usually on a bike that gets minimal care. The rear drive splines go out frequently enough, but only because they don't get cleaned and re-greased at every rear tire replacement. I DO carry a spare rotor, diode board and regulator. The thing about the charging light is usually a simple pre-op thing of turning the key on and checking for a lit bulb. If it doesn't light, there's a simple test that will tell if it is the bulb or an open rotor! More often than not, it's the rotor at fault.
Granted, this bike is not as fast as a K1200, doesn't stop as well or handle as well. The big BUT here is that although I can ride it up to its' potential, I have no reason to do so, whereas, in a K1200, If I ride it to its' potential, then I'm so far over my head that I'm not enjoying the ride.
My newest bike is an 87 K75C, my second K75. Again, it does everything I need it to do. Cross country? No problem and never a doubt that it'll get me home. Just doesn't have the charachter of an Airhead. The only problem I have with either bike is that the local dealer doesn't stock many parts. Big deal.
And when I hear about the latest farlke available for the newer bikes I just smile and keep my billfold in my pocket. Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and exuberance.

I like the newer bikes. I'd much rather that Annie ride a modern bike with all the improved features that entails. I too prefer to ride a bike that can stop very rapidly while making controlled directional changes. We have 4 BMWs and a FJR that range from 2007 to 2014. We ride them moderate distances each year 17-20K miles and have yet to have mechanical issue on the road that required anything more than a screw driver, wrench or jumper cables to fix. I sold my last airhead last spring. 1993 GSPD with less than 14,000 miles. A great bike, but I found it unsettling to ride a bike with such poor braking, comfort and performance. I bought and rode it in Alaska and it served me well, but I'm not a bike collector, so if we don't ride it then I sell it. Now the GSPD is in the hands of a person who will ride it and be happy. While I like new bikes, I am leery of some of BMW's offerings. I wanted a sport tourer. I looked at the new RTW and saw much to like, but went with the FJR. $8000 less than the RTW including an additional 4 year extended Yamaha warranty. So far the FJR has been a joy to ride and easy to maintain; no recalls, no down time due to malfunctions and dealers aplenty. But when we bought Annie a new bike last fall, she went with the F800GS. We looked at others, but BMW seems to be the best option in that market. Lighter than most, great performance and a fantastic reliability record. But like I said earlier, I like newer bikes. That's what makes this a great club and country. We have options and we can ride what we like and can afford and still appreciate the other guy's and gal's choices.

Motodan said:

You're writing about a nine year old bike - right? One you didn't purchase new and one that's been out of warranty for 6 years? Sorry, while I feel for ya regarding the inconvenience of having a valve go (the fuel issue was addressed at no charge), I'd consider your plight as part and parcel of buying used 9 year old machines. And I'm not sure a valve letting go qualifies as "technical wizardry" on BMW's part. Blaming BMW for not stepping up seems out of line IMHO. Might be more inline having prior owner participate in the repair cost, since he/she may have been more the culprit in this mix, than not.

Click to expand...

You know, you are right, but it sucks if it happened to us. He should sell the bike and cut his losses. Luckily he isn't paying it off. Sometimes we get a Harvard education for free. Well, not exactly free.

na1g said:

Buy a Honda. New, if you can swing it, but used is OK since they pretty dang reliable. (OK, here comes twelve posts from folks who had a Honda that broke its widget spring or something) Just my opinion.

Click to expand...

OK. here ya go:

1. I had a 1991 Honda CBR 600 that had a lower fairing panel screw come out, and when I took it in for the 600 mile service, the dealer replaced it and charged me $2 for it. Wouldn't cover it under warranty. I'll never buy another Honda.

2. A few years later, I got a 1995 Kawasaki GPZ1100. About 3 years after I bought it, chain lube residue built up around the side stand kill switch sensor preventing the bike from starting due to getting a false reading that the sidestand was still down. After I figured out what was wrong, I fixed with some WD-40 and an old toothbrush to scrubbed the sensor clean. Every time I changed the oil after that I had to remember to clean that sensor. What a piece of s*/%.

akbeemer said:

I like the newer bikes. I'd much rather that Annie ride a modern bike with all the improved features that entails. I too prefer to ride a bike that can stop very rapidly while making controlled directional changes. We have 4 BMWs and a FJR that range from 2007 to 2014. We ride them moderate distances each year 17-20K miles and have yet to have mechanical issue on the road that required anything more than a screw driver, wrench or jumper cables to fix. I sold my last airhead last spring. 1993 GSPD with less than 14,000 miles. A great bike, but I found it unsettling to ride a bike with such poor braking, comfort and performance. I bought and rode it in Alaska and it served me well, but I'm not a bike collector, so if we don't ride it then I sell it. Now the GSPD is in the hands of a person who will ride it and be happy. While I like new bikes, I am leery of some of BMW's offerings. I wanted a sport tourer. I looked at the new RTW and saw much to like, but went with the FJR. $8000 less than the RTW including an additional 4 year extended Yamaha warranty. So far the FJR has been a joy to ride and easy to maintain; no recalls, no down time due to malfunctions and dealers aplenty. But when we bought Annie a new bike last fall, she went with the F800GS. We looked at others, but BMW seems to be the best option in that market. Lighter than most, great performance and a fantastic reliability record. But like I said earlier, I like newer bikes. That's what makes this a great club and country. We have options and we can ride what we like and can afford and still appreciate the other guy's and gal's choices.

Click to expand...

Well said Kevin, and I feel very much the same way. Which campus of UA were you at? I lived in the Fairbanks area for 30+ years and went to UAF.

For me, the brakes on the newer bikes are what really makes the single biggest difference. I have had airheads and other older bikes and got pretty decent in getting the most from drum brakes, but they still don't stop like modern brakes. I totally get the appeal of riding an older bike and even traveling long distances on one. I've done it and decided that for me, I enjoy more modern bikes for that purpose. To my probably biased way of thinking the airheads will always be some of the greatest motorcycles ever built though.

I don't understand why BMW is being vilified because a 9 year old motorcycle engine failed. Would you feel the same way if it was a car, truck, lawn mower, refrigerator, stove, etc. Regardless of what mechanical contraption you have, they sometimes fail. Firearms such as Ruger and others are a different matter. The owners keep them for decades with tremendous brand loyalty. Ruger has no written warranty but they treat the customers like they have a lifetime warranty. Other gun manufacturers have started giving lifetime warranties for their products to increase sales or overcome a poor reliability reputation since they didn't have the Ruger reputation (Glock is the same). I have a written lifetime warranty on my Henry, Hi-Point, Smith & Wesson and Phoenix HP-22. My Taurus doesn't have a lifetime warranty only because it was imported before Taurus started importing them themselves.

ducster said:

I had a 1991 Honda CBR 600 that had a lower fairing panel screw come out, and when I took it in for the 600 mile service, the dealer replaced it and charged me $2 for it. Wouldn't cover it under warranty. I'll never buy another Honda.

Click to expand...

That would be like saying you gave up on women because you had a date when you were 16 and the girl didn't kiss you at the door. Only you suffer.

BC1100S said:

The snow up there must be gettin' to you.

Click to expand...

Snow? What snow?? I can't even open my front door to look outside.

I appreciate all the comments so far. I've read and thought about every one of them. There have been many good points, from different viewpoints.

I want to clarify something. This was not an age-related problem. There is no modern vehicle, not even a Vega, whose engines can't make it to 50,000 miles without the kind of damage that mine had. BMW should have helped out because it was a manufacturing defect, not because something randomly went wrong. I know they can't catch every such defect; like I said in the original post, no quality control program is 100% perfect. But customer relations can be.

I was amused by the fellow who thought that having a fuel pump fail, and blow gasoline all over my left leg, was not a catastrophic failure. Ever heard of static electricity? One spark, and me and the bike would have been immolated. This is why the NHTSA had BMW declare a recall on the part. I'm so glad that Bogthebasher wasn't run over by that semi when his fuel pump failed.

I truly hope that those of you who think I had nothing to gripe about never have a similar experience.

brucen8uty said:

I truly hope that those of you who think I had nothing to gripe about never have a similar experience.

Click to expand...

Many of us have. With BMWs as well as with other brands.

Now please, explain to us how a failed fuel pump would result in fuel being sprayed all over your left leg. Are you possibly referring to the well-known pump flange issue? The two are not the same.

brucen8uty said:

I want to clarify something. This was not an age-related problem. There is no modern vehicle, not even a Vega, whose engines can't make it to 50,000 miles without the kind of damage that mine had. BMW should have helped out because it was a manufacturing defect, not because something randomly went wrong.

Click to expand...

This was in my opinion clearly a manufacturing defect. Valve heads are absolutely not supposed to fall off the stems. If it happened to my bike I would be angry. But here is the rub. There is a legally binding contractual committment provided with a BMW motorcycle. It is called the warranty and provides coverage for defects in parts or workmanship for 36,000 miles or three years.

Yes it would be nice if a manufacturer would cover manufacturing defects forever but they usually don't. BMW doesn't. They cover stuff for 3 years or 36,000 miles, whichever occurs first.

This incident, and the dissatisfaction it would cause almost any one of us, should be a cautionary tale for anybody who has a bike that is out of warranty or buys a bike which is out of warranty. There are some totally unquantifiable risks associated with out of warranty bikes and the possibilities of very expensive failures. Virtually any used out of warranty motorcycle could suffer a mechanical failure where the costs to repair may well exceed the value of the bike. That is just a fact. So we need to be prepared to write the bike off, sell it for salvage, part it out or otherwise walk away while cutting our losses. That sounds harsh. That is harsh. But it is a possible reality. Folks unable or unwilling to face this risk need an in-warranty bike or an aftermarket insurance policy to cover mechanical breakdowns called an Extended Warranty.

I had a valve failure on a 07 GSA, was still in warranty and they rebuilt damaged side. Heard of a few other bikes in that year range with similar failure, but not a lot. Had that happened years after warranty, I would rebuild it myself and roll on. H's 1150 lost a piece of valve and the heads are being reworked...I don't think it's anybody's problem but mine.

I have had leaky fuel from a cracked QC on the same bike and also covered under warranty, if the same part broke later on, it would have been on me.
I think the recall/service campaigns have been good for certain items deemed critical...like the fuel flange.

All our bikes are second hand except for my 09GSA. I don't agree with the notion buying new is the only way to go. I don't have the mileage totals for the bakers dozen bikes we share, but it's a heapy gob and other than the valve failure in WY on the 07GSA, all have made it home each time.

And FWIW...my 72 Vega lost a cam belt at 39K and pretty much destroyed that powerhouse of an engine

Sorry it happened to you, Glad you didn't get hurt from it. Fix it or salvage it and buy something else.