My last BMW vehicle

[globalrider]

There is a reason that Dr. Deming was wholeheartedly embraced in Japan and virtually ignored in the US... the Japanese culture of consensus.

Ahhh, someone knows about William Deming. Yup, the truth hurts which is why they ignored him.

The second book I listed, talks about the top Generous Motors execs didn't want to see how things were done in Japan, the NUMMI plant and Japan's systen there.

My new 1981 Ford was my last American car and I got rid of it 17 months later. Pure garbage, but "Quality Is Job 1" was Ford's slogan. I had a tough time tracking it down though.

Funny thing...Toyota Tundra built in Texas, my Acura RDX built in Ohio. Must be a management issue at the Big Three.

 

[Omega Man]

Ahhh, someone knows about William Deming. Yup, the truth hurts which is why they ignored him.

The second book I listed, talks about the top Generous Motors execs didn't want to see how things were done in Japan, the NUMMI plant and Japan's systen there.

My new 1981 Ford was my last American car and I got rid of it 17 months later. Pure garbage, but "Quality Is Job 1" was Ford's slogan. I had a tough time tracking it down though.

Funny thing...Toyota Tundra built in Texas, my Acura RDX built in Ohio. Must be a management issue at the Big Three.

This reminds me of a statement I had heard about the Japanese Car Invasion-

“If the Japanese cars hadn’t started arriving in the United States, we would still be driving rattle-trap ****-boxes with a thirty-thousand mile lifespan”. Or something like that.

And, from Frank Zappa- “All that we have here is American made. It’s a little bit cheesy but nicely displayed”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXH5Wy_8BbY

OM

 

[stevenrankin]

insult to injury

So the shop that finally installed my water pump also informed me I have a wheel alignment problem. $199 to have them do the work. For giggles I called my local BMW dealership for a quote, $299.

Of course I know the reason BMW needs $100 more to do the job, BMW corporate insisted the dealership be built to boutique specs and it cost the dealer a few million to have a complex built. The shop I hired has been in business longer and I am sure didn't pay nearly a quarter of the money to build their shop.

So insult to injury from BMW. St.

 

[Omega Man]

So the shop that finally installed my water pump also informed me I have a wheel alignment problem. $199 to have them do the work. For giggles I called my local BMW dealership for a quote, $299.

Of course I know the reason BMW needs $100 more to do the job, BMW corporate insisted the dealership be built to boutique specs and it cost the dealer a few million to have a complex built. The shop I hired has been in business longer and I am sure didn't pay nearly a quarter of the money to build their shop.

So insult to injury from BMW. St.

Not really a fair comparison-
Seems like you were not aware of any alignment problems, so-
Your mechanic has the car and seen the problem first hand.
The BMW dealership was answering a phone quote.
Until a dealership or service provider, be it carpenter, excavations contractor or house painter, actually see what the job/repair actually is, a real quote can’t accurately be given.
This phenomenon of non-accurate comparisons has become the “Way of the New World”.

OM

 

[kbasa]

Ahhh, someone knows about William Deming. Yup, the truth hurts which is why they ignored him.

The second book I listed, talks about the top Generous Motors execs didn't want to see how things were done in Japan, the NUMMI plant and Japan's systen there.

My new 1981 Ford was my last American car and I got rid of it 17 months later. Pure garbage, but "Quality Is Job 1" was Ford's slogan. I had a tough time tracking it down though.

Funny thing...Toyota Tundra built in Texas, my Acura RDX built in Ohio. Must be a management issue at the Big Three.

Shrug. My F150, which I bought new, is 24 years old, hasn’t had much more than regular maintenance and continues to get things done. We call it Trusty Truck. It’s one of the highest value purchases I’ve made in my life. I put wear items like suspension stuff in it a few years ago, but it’s been utterly reliable. Base model, v6, tow package and not much more beyond AC

My dad has put north of 250k mikes on a couple GMC 2500 diesels, towing from South Texas to Alaska over a couple decades.

I’m from Detroit and my family built cars. I hated Detroit products and drove Honda for 20 years. I had a 1988 Toyota that rusted itself into oblivion, so when it was time for a new truck, I went Ford in 2000 and haven’t regretted it a minute.

Maybe the problem is your 42 year old data.

 

[kbasa]

Not really a fair comparison-
Seems like you were not aware of any alignment problems, so-
Your mechanic has the car and seen the problem first hand.
The BMW dealership was answering a phone quote.
Until a dealership or service provider, be it carpenter, excavations contractor or house painter, actually see what the job/repair actually is, a real quote can’t accurately be given.
This phenomenon of non-accurate comparisons has become the “Way of the New World”.

OM

Mad about a water pump failing on a car in its teens with something like 80k on it? It’s an E90, so it’s what, working on 15 years old now?

It’s an old car and stuff breaks. In 1980, you’d be lined up for an alternator, timing chain, probably a carb by now, maybe a mechanical fuel pump, thermostat, etc. on a car with 75k miles on it.

I remember when cars were used up at 100k, so I’m kind of trying to figure out why this seems to be such a huge deal. Old stuff wears out. It’s not an anvil. It’s a few thousand used car parts flying in formation.

 

[globalrider]

Shrug. My F150, which I bought new, is 24 years old, hasn’t had much more than regular maintenance and continues to get things done. We call it Trusty Truck. It’s one of the highest value purchases I’ve made in my life. I put wear items like suspension stuff in it a few years ago, but it’s been utterly reliable. Base model, v6, tow package and not much more beyond AC

My dad has put north of 250k mikes on a couple GMC 2500 diesels, towing from South Texas to Alaska over a couple decades.

I’m from Detroit and my family built cars. I hated Detroit products and drove Honda for 20 years. I had a 1988 Toyota that rusted itself into oblivion, so when it was time for a new truck, I went Ford in 2000 and haven’t regretted it a minute.

Maybe the problem is your 42 year old data.

I do not have problem with my data. Ever wonder why GM needed government $$$ some years ago. And you missed the part about Quality Is Job No.1. Why would you need to advertise such BS...let the consumer decide.

And it is always worth listing what was replaced in 250K miles on a couple of trucks, because without it, it is all meaningless. And 250K miles on a couple of diesels is nothing. I would not buy a car from the Big Three for half the price.

And of course when GM killed just over 100 people with a faulty ignition switch that they knew about, that was OK and nobody went to jail, but heaven help us if VW cheated with the TDIs, but then so did Cummins. Funny how nothing happened to the latter. Politics?

 

[stevenrankin]

Rates

For things such as wheel alignments and such, the prices are fixed in 99% of the shops I have had work done. They charge the same amount for tweaking one wheel into alignment as they do all four. The only time the quoted price changes is when problems are found outside the normal scope of doing the alignment. At that point the customer is given an additional quote for fixing the problem.

Quotes are given in most part over the phone using the shops fixed set price or reference to a flat rate book. The flat rate book doesn't give a labor cost only the approximate number of hours needed to do the job.

Repair costs are fixed to cover overhead and labor and to some degree the amount of profit desired by the shop. A BMW dealership is hampered by the costs imposed upon them by BMW in addition to the normal costs of labor. Prices have to be adjusted up for them to make the profits expected. Hence the stupendous cost of repairs. St.

 

[globalrider]

Of course I know the reason BMW needs $100 more to do the job, BMW corporate insisted the dealership be built to boutique specs and it cost the dealer a few million to have a complex built.

Possibly, but then there are consumers that need that and the status. My dealers even when I bought new never got to see me, except for the Ford I once owned and they had to take the head off to replace the hydraulic lifters when it was 14 months old, funny, 2 months after the warranty expired. I sold it a three months later and bought a Toyota.

 

[Omega Man]

For things such as wheel alignments and such, the prices are fixed in 99% of the shops I have had work done. They charge the same amount for tweaking one wheel into alignment as they do all four. The only time the quoted price changes is when problems are found outside the normal scope of doing the alignment. At that point the customer is given an additional quote for fixing the problem.

Quotes are given in most part over the phone using the shops fixed set price or reference to a flat rate book. The flat rate book doesn't give a labor cost only the approximate number of hours needed to do the job.

Repair costs are fixed to cover overhead and labor and to some degree the amount of profit desired by the shop. A BMW dealership is hampered by the costs imposed upon them by BMW in addition to the normal costs of labor. Prices have to be adjusted up for them to make the profits expected. Hence the stupendous cost of repairs. St.

Just checking to see if all we can expect is more BMW (other than Airhead) hate.

OM

 

[stevenrankin]

I am confused

Kbsa, I am confused, you write about your Ford and GMC vehicles being mostly trouble free, a point I am making then give me a hard time for my BMW needing a water pump at less than 100K miles?


This is why I am so pissed at BMW, I have had Dodge, Chrysler, Chevrolet, cars run well over 100K miles with only normal maintenance costs. When I pay a premium price for a vehicle I expect a premium vehicle. BMW is no longer a premium vehicle.

Yeah, I spent my early years working on cars that dissolved in NY winter salt. Today's cars are far better but why? Because the Japanese started to kick the hell out of the US car makers. I remember the first Toyota car I saw, it was owned by my boss at the lumber company I was working at. Parked next to my 71 Chevy, it was a well built solid machine compared the loose pile of parts the chevy was composed of. Both cars went 100K miles but the Toyota did it with a lot less repairs and in the end a lot less body rot.

Now in 2023, I have several friends who have purchased new GM and Jeep vehicles paying outstanding money for them only to have them back in the shop time and time again. So for me, I will never own another GM or Chrysler product despite my good past history of ownership.

As I said, my Mazda Cx5 beats the BMW x3 hands down in all categories, I have yet to drive a Miata convertible, but there may be a chance this low quality BMW convertible I own now will get traded in for something I can drive and not have to worry about breaking down. That will depend on how much of a trade in the 335 will fetch. I sure won't sell it privately as I can't screw people over. St.

 

[globalrider]

Just checking to see if all we can expect is more BMW (other than Airhead) hate.

OM

What, my 1990 BMW GS started right up after being in storage for 7 full years and it even idled properly. Ya gots to know something about storing vehicles.

And by the way, I just checked after doing an oil pan gasket (unnecessary), the bottom is completely dry as in no oil leaks.

 

[powwow]

Ahhh, someone knows about William Deming. Yup, the truth hurts which is why they ignored him.

The second book I listed, talks about the top Generous Motors execs didn't want to see how things were done in Japan, the NUMMI plant and Japan's systen there.

My new 1981 Ford was my last American car and I got rid of it 17 months later. Pure garbage, but "Quality Is Job 1" was Ford's slogan. I had a tough time tracking it down though.

Funny thing...Toyota Tundra built in Texas, my Acura RDX built in Ohio. Must be a management issue at the Big Three.

In all fairness, the auto business hasn't exactly been an even global playing field. While I make no excuses for poor quality, the Japanese manufacturers have had a pretty sweet deal for decades. It's easy to be aggressive in foreign markets when you never have to worry about foreign competition in your home market.

Ford tried to build an assembly plant in Japan in the late 80's/early 90's. Japanese government/banking/business all worked together to ensure that wasn't going to happen and that the Japanese home market remained the exclusive domain of Japanese businesses. Meanwhile, U.S. southern states were eager to embrace foreign manufacturing to begin building an industrial base and offered ridiculous tax incentives to foreign automobile manufacturers. The Big Three do not get any of those incentives.

It's obviously far more complicated than when I've said here, but there is much more to the business and competition story than just quality of Japanese products.

 

[The_Veg]

Various thoughts from this thread:

Mazdas and other cars: I too have a Mazda CX-5 and LOVE it. Whole lotta car for the money! Living in Georgia, those vented seats are a godsend! I was shocked when a rented BMW X5 I drove on a biz-trip a few weeks ago didn't have them- and its MSRP is TWICE that of my Mazda. My previous car was a Mazda 3, which was totaled in a chain-reaction crash a year and a half ago. It had 105K on it and was still very nice, still like new, and prob'ly had at least that much life still left in it. It was the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned, never needed anything beyond regular maintenance. Before it I had a pair of Mk IV Golfs, first a 2002 GTI and then a 2003 GLS. I bought the GTI new and it was great and sweet and oh-so-satisfying for about 5 years, then rapidly became a decrepit POS. It was the replacement for a '91 Acura Integra that make it to 240K miles without major issues, then the aircon failed a week after I ordered the GTI...in the middle of summer...in TexSux. Mrs. Veg is currently driving a 2018 Dodge Challenger (V6) that is approaching 50K miles and has been flawless. She had a Mazda 3 before that that was bought used and had zero problems. IN 199 my ma bought a Mazda MPV that was almost trouble-free for two decades. I say almost because at around 15 years one of the electric door-locks started making squealing noises...but still worked just fine. That van only started circling the drain in the last couple of years when my brother used it to make Amazon Flex deliveries. He finally let it go a few months ago. Oh speaking of maintenance, the Mazdas we've had are the easiest vehicles for DIY oil & filter changes I've ever met. They clearly put some thought into the process when these vehicles were engineered. Just put tires on it too; moving away from the mediocre OEM Toyos to a nice set of Michelins has REALLY made a difference!

BMW bikes: I had an airhead once, a 1995 R100R. Worst bike I ever had! Charging system problems, poor MPG, and an exhaust-valve lost its head at 67K and destroyed the top-end on one side...in the middle of summer...in Oklahoma...on the way home from the national rally. Currently I've got a 2012 R1200GS that I got barely-used in 2014. While the mileage is still a little modest for its age, it has been GREAT to live with. The only problem it has had was a few years ago when the wiring to the left handlebar switches failed due to flexing caused by how the factory chose to cable-tie the wiring to the brake line and then to the stuff under the tupperware, at a different point than where the brake line connected. The bike was well out of warranty by then so I got out the soldering iron and heat-shrink tubing and fixed myself easily and quickly, and then changed the way the wiring was secured to prevent it happening again. No further issues. All the bike has needed is regular maintenance, and I haven't even had to change a valve-shim yet.

Turbochargers: I've owned two turbocharged vehicles- the aforementioned GTI and a 1986 Lotus Turbo Esprit that I had from 2010 to 2014. I think most of the bad reputation that turbos have is a holdover from the '80s when they were really popular but the technology was still immature. If they were truly as bad as people's wariness about them made them out to be, we'd be living in a wasteland of broken turbos and that's clearly not our reality. Neither of my turbos ever had any issue with their function, although the one in the VW went through a phase in which the bolts that mounted the turbo to the intake manifold kept coming loose. Some better lock-washers cured that. Since the Lotus was old when I got it, I did clean-out the wastegate to make it work a little more smoothly but but the turbocharger never gave any problem. And I drove that Lotus to work a couple of times when the GTI couldn't be bothered to not be broken. It went through a lot of plastic cooling-system parts, which often developed leaks along the mold-parting lines. Regarding being made in China, I don't know if these parts were, but the country of origin isn't the problem. Chinese factories are capable of any level of quality that their foreign customers specify and pay for. <-Read the previous sentence carefully. The VW's engine-breather plumbing also rotted away at one point, and I learned that a tee the joins two of the pipes was made of glorified foam rubber! The dealer wanted $130 just for the parts, which amounted to that tee and two molded plastic tubes. I used some off-the-shelf hose and a plumbing fitting to fix it for about a tenth as much money.

I have another Lotus now, a 1970 Elan +2. The 2000s radio in it is the only part of the car that could even remotely be considered high-tech. It has dual Zenith-Stromberg carburettors that are just like the Bings on an airhead, only slightly larger. Well, maybe not JUST like- they do have hydraulic dampers on the slides, which occasionally need a few drops of oil added. any motor-oil lying around the garage will do. But just like the Bings they're pretty much set-and-forget. This car has broken down on the road twice, both times near home. The first time it was because the negative cable had come off the battery, and the second time it was because one carb-float had taken on fuel. A little fettling and I was on my way again. I have a friend who likes to think of this car as a four-wheeled airhead.

I do agree that we as consumers share some responsibility in how things are these days with vehicles (and lots of other stuff too). We've been WAY too passive about it.

 

[globalrider]

In all fairness, the auto business hasn't exactly been an even global playing field.

True, but then the American auto industry also built cars in Mexico using cheap labor.

Nissan, Honda and Toyota have built plants in the US and one in Canada. Hell, even BMW built one in the US.

The problem is pi$$ poor management in the Big Three...too many Fat Cats playing golf. Nissan and maybe the others passed on unions in their US plants back then and maybe that has changed.

The trouble with US and THEM is we look for excuses, they don't. There are innovators and there are followers, better now but still not the same.

 

[The_Veg]

Nissan, Honda and Toyota have built plants in the US and one in Canada. Hell, even BMW built one in the US.

I live in the southeast and this region is the heart of the auto-industry in the USA these days. The list of plants is long and growing, not just final assembly but an endless list of suppliers too. Most recently a Korean company has just built a huge plant for making EV-batteries just up the road from me and Rivian is soon to open an assembly facility near Etlanna. Mercedes-Benz started this new age of the industry in the region when they opened a plant in Alabama in the '90s. That plant has multiplied in size since then and to this day, every single M-Class you see anywhere in the world was made there, and several other product-lines have been added since. BMW's South Carolina facility is the company's largest plant anywhere in the world, even bigger than in their homeland. The Ford and GM plants that used to operate in Atlanta are long gone. The former Ford property is now owned by Porsche, interestingly, where they have their US HQ and something called the Porsche Experience Center where you can take some track-training. In my work as a field service engineer in the plastics and polymers industry, I've done work in several suppliers' facilities, most of which have been Korean companies. They've all seemed like very competent operations.

The problem is pi$$ poor management in the Big Three...too many Fat Cats playing golf.

Nothing new here; poor management has been sinking car companies for decades. Studebaker is a great example that totally breaks my heart, and they went under before I was born. I often ponder what would be if they'd only been well-enough run to still be around today. At the time they failed the company was already more than a century old, and would have celebrated 150 years in business in 2002.

Nissan and maybe the others passed on unions in their US plants back then and maybe that has changed.

Unions aren't necessarily a bad thing, contrary to some of the banter these days. Like most things, they're what people make them and have the potential be either good or bad. The southeast has historically been hostile to unions and still is. It's worth noting however that very recently the UAW wanted to be in the VW plant near Chattanooga. The workers mostly wanted it, and VW's management even wanted it (Back in Germany, unions are an important part of how auto plants are run). But Tennessee's government swooped-in and kept it from happening. So much for the party of small government, *cough cough*

The trouble with US and THEM is we look for excuses, they don't. There are innovators and there are followers, better now but still not the same.

Agreed. Way too few companies get stuck in being complacent with what used to work, and with not getting out of their own way to make happen what needs to happen. I see this in my own employer -we don't make cars, we make analytical instruments used in quality-control in plastics manufacturing- but I see a lot of the same problems. We're at a critical point bow with trying to replace older products that everybody loves with new ones for a variety of reasons ranging from parts from outside suppliers no longer being available to the unrealistic dreams of our management (our newest product came from those dreams and was initially a disaster and will never really really be ideal). But at least in this company, there is hope since we're not a huge company. I see changes happening that just might pull us through.

 

[pglaves]

My guess is that 82% of what I have read in this thread is anecdotal, oddball example, or pure balderdash. YMMV

 

[88bmwjeff]

So the shop that finally installed my water pump also informed me I have a wheel alignment problem. $199 to have them do the work. For giggles I called my local BMW dealership for a quote, $299.

Of course I know the reason BMW needs $100 more to do the job, BMW corporate insisted the dealership be built to boutique specs and it cost the dealer a few million to have a complex built. The shop I hired has been in business longer and I am sure didn't pay nearly a quarter of the money to build their shop.

So insult to injury from BMW. St.

This is not unique to BMW. I had Acura for a few years and Honda would make the same part and put some in a Honda box and others in an Acura box. But, the one in the Honda box cost 50-60% of the one in the Acura Box.

Luxury vehicles, regardless of who makes them, come with premium.

 

[stevenrankin]

Lol

I don't mind paying more for added luxury or performance, foolish me, I expect such a car to be reliable to match the added cost.

Frankly it is about time this thread dies, no one is going to change anyone's minds or perceptions of the BMW brand here. St.

 

[chadhargis]

Ahhh, someone knows about William Deming.

I wrote my final paper in grad school on Dr. W. Edwards Deming. The man was a genius.